Here's another really good question:

You know how Doc started that great thread with "5 Questions to ask your tuner?" Well I am curious about what to ask, or conversely, tell a tuner tuning with the TTST.

My thinking is that time is money, so most tuners would be inclined to just do a 'basic' TTST tune unless specifically asked to address other issues.

The context here is that even though I have done a couple of short V-Tune runs, I am going to have Shumate HD in Portland, OR tune my bike once riding weather returns. They were trained by Doc this Fall. They have quoted me ~$400

Steve

 

Just so I know is the fast retard tied to the ion sense and is this a true recording of a knock a few moments earlier. Most of the times I have seen the fast retard kick in I have not been able to hear anything out of the ordinary. I have found some discoloring on my pistons just under the compression releases and have been suspicious that this was a hot spot and starting combustion before the ignition.

 

All knock retard whether fast or otherwise comes from the Ion sense circuit. The trick is to understand it only reports what it has already seen, so it is what has happened in the past. Most times the circuit will make an adjustment long before you can hear it ping.

 

Many thanks for the input, Steve
this is in fact very important to know that, if we're looking for the interesting part of the data
when you says "long before", how long could it be ?

now a fundamental question :
is it really important to try to make some corrections to avoid the anti-knock system to engage ?
can we simply rely on it or is it valuable effort to try to avoid it ?

to cts : I'll try to use megasquirt viewer to see ...

 

Mr. Cole has hit it right on the head, the ion sensing system is only a safety device. The only way IMO to get timing right is to put it on a dyno with a load brake. Then you can put the motor under a load at different RPM's, different gears and also hit different MAP values. You can then tune the ignition to what the motor wants keeping an eye on the HP/TQ curves. The goal with any ignition curve is to be at peak TQ values at any RPM and MAP value. When you are at peak TQ values the motor will be most efficient at this point. Spark knock activity with the Ion Sensing system can be seen in the data long before you can hear "ping". By the time you hear "ping" it is too late. Tuning a bike properly with TTS or any othere device is so much more detailed than just VE or fuel adjustment.

 

Hey Guys what map would you recommend for a stock 08 ultra with SE a/c and jackpot exhaust. I'm glad i found this forum! lots of great info.

 

Steve Thanks for the response.
If I were relying on the vtune for the majority of the tune with out a dyno. I understand the vtune makes adjustment to the ve tables which control the fuel air mix which they seem to work spot on. Would it be reasonable to then look at the log files for knock retard events and try to adjust the timing to keep them from ever happening or is the occasional event always going to happen. I get that as you have said that you must look at the conditions that took place prior to the fast retard rather than when it kicks in because it has already happened. Is this trial and error method or is there a reasonable consent to adjust, lets say the kpa column prior to the event recording.

 

Adjusting the spark from the Datamaster log works very well but it is some trial and error. I like to look for any knock and make a slight adjustment to make it disappear. Then add 2 degrees everywhere below 80 kPa. Make another data run and make the necessary adjustments. As you add and then remove from the areas that ping you will begin to shape the spark curve to what your bike wants/needs. Once you get to where it wants to ping at most settings I reduce spark by 3 degrees across the board, this is my safety margin. This will get you by without a dyno but doesn't adjust above 80kPa. Once you have the spark map close look at the values you have at 80 kPa and blend them over to the right on the Map. Then go make your WOT runs and adjust what you see based on the retard happening. This will get you 95% of the way home and the last 5% is best done on a dyno. If you do not use have a dyno then you maybe down a couple of HP. Now if you find that as the weather warms up you pickup some pinging go to the Spark Vs temperature table and remove some there from the proper cells. This will give you the best possible tune under all conditions.

It is best to not have any retard if you can because the system will tend to take more out than is necessary and hold it out for awhile before it adds it back in. An example would be the retard system shows 4 degrees of retard happening. By removing 1 degree it may be gone compltely so you net gain is 3 degrees over what the retard system did. The 3 degree gain will give a nicer running engine and better fuel economy.

Now once you've finished the spark adjustments go back and run V-tune one more time as the correct spark can cause the mixture to change a small amount in some areas. Using this method I can get to within 3 Hp of what we can get on a dyno so it all depends on what your looking for.

 

Steve
That was helpful. It seems that a lot of us are trying to understand this process and you may have answered questions for many others.

 

eja: Once the MasterTune system is purchased and the online update is applied you will have a file on your desktop which has all the base files available. You then select the one that fits your year, model, engine and modifications.

But this is just the beginning point. Once that map is flashed to your bike with MasterTune, you then gather data with a second program called DataMaster, which you then process with a program called VTune, which modifies your base map customizing it to your bike further. This 3-step process is done 2-3 times. Or you can pay a shop with a dyno that knows the program and have a much more thorough map done.

Hope that helps,

Steve