HI. I'm hoping someone can give me an answer, I'm having an issue and am trying to avoid taking heads off if not really necessary. I removed the rocker boxes again, and am now waiting for some parts (SE forged rocker supports and S&S std forged rockers & shafts). I shimmed the stock rockers and supports already and changed the HQ black ops lifters to the Woods directional lifters and used Smith brothers quick install push rods. The rods appear to be rubbing slightly. They are close to the tubes but not showing a lot of rub evidence. Rocker boxes are chrome and hard to tell if there is any contact with (stock type) spring collars, although there is not much clearance there either.
I did the HD SE hybrid cam plate install, seems to be okay there. Also did a 95" cylinder and pistons, and had SB Charlie do my heads. I'm getting some excessive valve train noise, and when I emailed Charlie, he wondered if I had piston to valve contact.
I didn't do anything exotic so maybe someone can tell me if they know one way or another whether I might have that issue.
I have an Andrews TW37b cam and HD SE flat top pistons. Cam is supposed to be bolt in with no mods necessary (according to Andrews tech) and I am assuming (hoping) that the pistons would not interfere. Charlie installed his valves and guides that he uses in his Scottsman head package.
If anyone has installed the same could you let me know if you had any issues in that respect. I appreciate it a lot!

 

How much did SB Charlie mill the heads? Still using flat top pistons with valve pocket reliefs?

Try doing a swipe pattern test on the top of the valve stems to check geometry.

Common things that cause rocker area noise:
1) valve spring to lower rocker cover contact
2) rocker arm to upper or lower rocker cover contact
3) too much lash in rocker arm to rocker support clearance
4) improper pushrod adjustment

Check carefully for each of these and also do a compression check. If valves are bent (valve-to-piston OR valve-to-valve contact), compression will be way off.

 

+1 on what dynawg1 posted. It would help knowing the model year as pre '05 models did not have beehive springs and it spring collar to rocker box contact could be the source of the noise.

SBC's Scotsman heads include 1.90" intake valve. It would not be unusual for the outer edge of the larger intake valve to be "kissing" the SE flat top piston. The valve reliefs on the SE flat top pistons are cut for the smaller OEM intake valves. It is always a good idea to extend the outer edge of the valve relief to avoid potential piston to valve contact. The two below photos illustrate what I am referring to. Notice the how much closer to the edge of the piston the valve relief hi-lited by the red arrows is than the other valve relief. The other photo illustrates the results of light piston to valve contact and where it occurs with OEM valve reliefs and larger intake valves.





Unless the side play clearance between rockers and supports is way out, like say .035" or more, shimming rockers usually won't effect valve train noise. On the other hand, worn rocker shafts can contribute to valve train noise if clearance between shaft and rocker exceeds factory specification.

It has been my experience that unless the pushrod to tube contact is severe, such contact is not a factor in reducing valve train noise. If this is a concern, tapered pushrods are one solution. I have also "bored" the ID of the inner tube using a dremel tool to cut down the crimp ring on the inside of the tube. If, as you say, "They are close to the tubes but not showing a lot of rub evidence", I would be looking elsewhere.

The 37 is a great cam but not a hi-lift cam and I don't believe the rockers would be making contact with the rocker box cover but, if it was, there shoud be witness marks inside the rocker box cover.

Having said all that, I would first check pushrod adjustment. Just be sure you have the piston at TDC on the compression stroke (the lifter on the heel of the cam) and you let the lifters bleed down completely before moving to the next cylinder. Additionally, I recently worked with a friend that installed a set of Woods Directional lifters and one of them had a bleed down problem; had to be replaced.

A compression check as dynawg1 suggests would also be a good idea.

 

Wow. Thanks you guys for your input and advice. I really do appreciate it and will become a paying member, mark my word.
I received no info from SBC on decking the heads. I did however include all the info on the parts I would be using but when I got the heads back, there were no instructions at all or precautions so I ***-umed that I was good to go.
Now that the rocker boxes are off, I can see very small mark in the spring pocket of rear cylinder lower box that "could" be close to where the spring collar tops out at. It's no more than 1/8 inch long and is more or less at the angle of the collar. so maybe there was some contact there, but not really sure. The chroming in there could easily hide any scuffing (I'm a thinking).
What is a little more scary is that I got to talk to Charlie today. He said he had a customer somewhere that had valve/piston contact with flat top pistons this week, but he had no other info on what happened with that story.
So, I guess I better just get the heads off the engine and see if I can see any marks at all.
Now then, IF I do see any marks, and the valves kissed the piston, does that mean I need to yank the pistons back out too, to clearance for the valves or is that something I could do with a die grinder? Should the valves come out of head to be checked for straightness?
Again, any input is much appreciated. Thanks for the help....nevadarider

 

For some reason I thought I could pay a membership fee to help keep this site alive and well but I'm not seeing how to do that. If it is possible, maybe you can direct how to do it. Thanks, nevadarider

 

After re-reading the advice, I should add that it's an '04 electraglide, was an 88 of course but now 95". The TW37b cam has total valve lift of .510. I had black ops lifters that were fairly quiet before the build but after chasing the noise I changed to woods directionals and the smith quick change p-rods. Have done the adjustment twice, at TDC on each cyl cinching down 3.5 turns after 0 lash, then tried 1/2 turn more, no change in noise. After seeing the picture of the flat top piston w/ the valve marks and Charlie's statement, I better accept that it may be my problem too. I have one of those USB 7mm cameras coming in a few days that IF it actually works and my laptop works with it, maybe I can peer in there and look at the piston top. I'll check compression this weekend, too, and check the other things you all mentioned. Thanks zillions, again

 

Remote camera is a good idea. Compression test is a must at this point.

.510 is very mild lift and should be causing no problems. Bigger valves could under certain circumstances. Does noise increase as the motor heats up (metal expands)? Do you have a mechanic's stethoscope? If not, take a long blade slotted screwdriver, put your ear to the end of the handle, touch it to one the rocker bolts on each head, pushrod covers, cylinder fins, lifter covers, etc and see if you can isolate the noise. Also try placing a rag over the exhaust and see if that helps improve isolating the noise.

 

'04 ran the double wound springs and even though the .510 lift is mild, if you see a witness mark in the spring pocket, Dremel the pockets anyway. A small mark will make lots of noise when metal is contacting metal.

Check the piston tops and report findings; does the 7mm camera have a light? I don't expect you to see anything. However, Woods lifters take a long time to bleed down after adjusting; I have waited more than an hour. If you did not let them completely bleed down after adjusting, you could have piston/valve contact but should have felt that when rotating the crank to adjust the other cylinder. Eventually, the lifters would have bled down but if you see marks on a piston, that won't necessarily mean that you have piston to valve contact under operating conditions. You can Dremel the valve reliefs if you are confident with the tool and have a "fly cut" bit. You would need to duct tape off the area and scribe the new outer edge. The relief doesn't need to be any deeper, just more open to the edge of the piston. You will need to completely seal off the top of the piston to prevent metal filings from dropping into the upper ring land. It can be a bit tricky, so you might want to pull the pistons and send them out for machining. I am hopeful that this won't be necessary.

Run a compression test and report findings. Make sure battery is fully charged, hold throttle wide open. If bike is carbed, you will need to remove the carb from the boot as the slide will not come up unless the motor is running.

With that information, we can move forward.

You had pistons at TDC when adjusting pushrods but was that TDC on the compression stroke? If not, re adjust pushrods with pistons at TDC on compression stroke and see if that makes a difference.

 

Hi. Again, thank you guys for your help. You are really awesome dudes and it would be a GIFT to ever cross paths with you someday. Maybe, if I get this ol bike going and I get out on the highways, it could happen.
So, to update you on my problem......I received the little camera thing in the mail and since I had bought an old used laptop that I could run the program for the Power Commander III (that a friend had given to me), I was able to use it. The lights on the camera were too weak to do any good but with the aid of a penlight I was able to see that friggin mark outside the valve relief on the piston. So, you guys were dead on on your advice. I think there was slight contact on rear rocker box, and I have cleared that out. I have opened up the p-rod tubes a bit also. I did use a stethoscope and I could hear racket everywhere (except the cam chest area seemed quiet and pretty much all new in there with the SE hybrid plate/pump, baisley spring, precision ground bypass valve, and red-shift dual piston chain tensioners) So, now I need to get the throttle body and related parts off and yank them heads off.

I know that Charlie states on his write up for the headwork that he sets the heads up for cam and piston of YOUR choice, but whether he helps me out is still up in the air. I am thinking I can enlarge the relief in the piston IF I am really careful with a die grinder and a mini flap-disc, which I already have. I realize this is kind of crazy but I'm kind of thinking that is the route I will try for now, unless you guys think it would be too crazy to attempt.
As far as the valves, I am thinking I must have damaged them and they will need replaced. I plan on taking the valves out and if I can't tell by just looking at them, I feel that if I spin them in the guides and use grinding compound I might be able to tell if they are bent by the pattern on the lips of the valve. Do you guys agree with that?

Again, thank so much for the help. I will update once I get the heads off and valves out. Maybe I will try calling Charlie again but he doesn't seem to want to talk to me too much. I will give him the chance to work with me, anyway.

Brian, nevadarider

 

Good progress.

Re: Relieving the valve pockets with pistons/cylinders in place: To keep cylinders from moving once the heads are off, make sure to use two of the short head bolts with ~1.5 inch long cylinders of PVC pipe positioned diametrically opposed on both cylinders and firmly finger tighter the head bolts so that no cylinder movement is possible. Do this before you move the crank at all.

Take one piston to TDC and seal around the outside of the piston crown (above the top ring) with clean grease before relieving the valve pocket(s). Tape off the other cylinder to keep debris out. After you are done relieving the piston pocket, vacuum and then clean the piston area with a leaf blower (not compressed air), clean as much of the grease and residue from around the piston crown as possible with Q-tips, wipe the piston top clean with brake cleaner, then move the piston down to the bottom of the bore (BDC) and clean the cylinder repeatedly with brake cleaner on a lint-free paper towel until no black residue is visible on the towel, and lightly oil the cylinder bore with motor oil. Now move the rear wheel in 5th gear until the other piston is at TDC, tape off the first cylinder and repeat on the other.

Good luck.