I May Have Screwed the Pooch
#21
01-10-2017, 02:42 PM
Seasoned HDF Member
I did have to fit the rings, but I don't use a piston for that. The bore size is really close to my VW motor, so I use my "ring squaring tool" which is essentially a chunk of aluminum bar that I cut in my lathe into a "T" shape that squares it as it pushes the ring down 1" from the top of the bore. I went .022" top and .024" second - a little less than my VW motors.
The VW motor uses Wisecos at .006" skirt clearance, and they clatter enough to be heard over open exhaust, until gets some heat in the motor. I have the motor apart at the moment, and those pistons and barrels don't show a lick of wear. Maybe a couple hundred runs on 'em.
The S&S pushrods (40tpi) were set for .120" preload.
So essentially, yeah, I shoulda checked the skirt to wall clearance. But then I have to ask, how many home builders, once getting a set of pistons and barrels actually do check?
In the meantime, it's been raining nearly non-stop here in Central California for nearly two weeks. At the moment, I have my racer to get ready for the Bakersfield March Meet, and it's scattered about in quite a few pieces. So, I'm just gonna chew on the bike "problem" (if it is a problem) for a bit.
Looks like a window in the weather is gonna open up by the weekend, so I'll take 'er out on a little ride and then dump the oil. If it has any crap in it, then I'll deal with it fairly soon. If not, maybe I'll ride it for a while and monitor it. Most likely, I'll look at buying a piston and cylinder kit either from S&S, Zippers or maybe see if Hillcycle can supply it.
BTW, the valvetrain noise stays consistent regardless of temp. Before doing this work, it would clatter when it got hot. And after shutting down after a long ride, the lifters seemed to bleed down quickly and clatter like hell until oil pressure built up. I took djl's advice as well as others and went for the S&S lifters and adjustable pushrods, then going with the 509 cam. No lifter clatter at all on start-up now, and a pleasant low pitched whine from cam gears.
Question....Are the SE pistons a dealer item? I'd like to buy a piston/cylinder set outright and change 'em out when I have time. Who's the best to buy from, if not from those I mentioned?
Jay, piston slap sounds a lot like a muffled rod knock, coming in at light load, from just above idle when the motor is cold. It starts to quiet as heat builds, and usually disappears after a coupla minutes. A rod knock usually grows louder with heat and rpm, and gets worse very quickly the longer it's operated. A rock knock will leave a bunch of very visible particles in the oil as it eats into the crank, bearing and connecting rod.
The VW motor uses Wisecos at .006" skirt clearance, and they clatter enough to be heard over open exhaust, until gets some heat in the motor. I have the motor apart at the moment, and those pistons and barrels don't show a lick of wear. Maybe a couple hundred runs on 'em.
The S&S pushrods (40tpi) were set for .120" preload.
So essentially, yeah, I shoulda checked the skirt to wall clearance. But then I have to ask, how many home builders, once getting a set of pistons and barrels actually do check?
In the meantime, it's been raining nearly non-stop here in Central California for nearly two weeks. At the moment, I have my racer to get ready for the Bakersfield March Meet, and it's scattered about in quite a few pieces. So, I'm just gonna chew on the bike "problem" (if it is a problem) for a bit.
Looks like a window in the weather is gonna open up by the weekend, so I'll take 'er out on a little ride and then dump the oil. If it has any crap in it, then I'll deal with it fairly soon. If not, maybe I'll ride it for a while and monitor it. Most likely, I'll look at buying a piston and cylinder kit either from S&S, Zippers or maybe see if Hillcycle can supply it.
BTW, the valvetrain noise stays consistent regardless of temp. Before doing this work, it would clatter when it got hot. And after shutting down after a long ride, the lifters seemed to bleed down quickly and clatter like hell until oil pressure built up. I took djl's advice as well as others and went for the S&S lifters and adjustable pushrods, then going with the 509 cam. No lifter clatter at all on start-up now, and a pleasant low pitched whine from cam gears.
Question....Are the SE pistons a dealer item? I'd like to buy a piston/cylinder set outright and change 'em out when I have time. Who's the best to buy from, if not from those I mentioned?
Jay, piston slap sounds a lot like a muffled rod knock, coming in at light load, from just above idle when the motor is cold. It starts to quiet as heat builds, and usually disappears after a coupla minutes. A rod knock usually grows louder with heat and rpm, and gets worse very quickly the longer it's operated. A rock knock will leave a bunch of very visible particles in the oil as it eats into the crank, bearing and connecting rod.
Add.. Zippers used to use Wisecos. I suspect that they still are but after the piston ring debacle, they might have switched. IIRC SnS also uses Wiseco tho the early TC pistons didn't have the look...
Last edited by Max Headflow; 01-10-2017 at 02:46 PM.
#22
01-10-2017, 02:56 PM
Road Master
I can add that I have had the shop screw up and fit at +.006 on a smaller bore than the one in question - worse, in fact, because fit is proportional. I tried running it. Nope, junk.
Sounds like, if it is fit, it is just a shortened life cycle, hours to another re-fit not what they ought to be. Bummer, but not a disaster. I have fitted 45 pistons at .005 and run them really hard in very hot weather...for many hours flat out. Clatter cold is assuring that engine not too tight - but that was flathead...nuther critter.
I agree, eliminate other possible sources of noise. Oil analysis might suggest source too. On occasion I have had clatter noise change with oil brand... Why? Cannot say. No clue. Simple observation of correlation.
Sounds like, if it is fit, it is just a shortened life cycle, hours to another re-fit not what they ought to be. Bummer, but not a disaster. I have fitted 45 pistons at .005 and run them really hard in very hot weather...for many hours flat out. Clatter cold is assuring that engine not too tight - but that was flathead...nuther critter.
I agree, eliminate other possible sources of noise. Oil analysis might suggest source too. On occasion I have had clatter noise change with oil brand... Why? Cannot say. No clue. Simple observation of correlation.
#23
01-10-2017, 03:14 PM
Seasoned HDF Member
I have lost count of the rebuilds I have done over the years on cars. However, since my labor has always been free and pretty much, only thing replaced was wear parts, if it ran fine, we were happy. However, since what you had probably still ran fine before you tore it down, bet you tear it down and redo it.
It is interesting when you say "I don't push the limits on the bike." Not sure what that means. I have yet to understand why people do all the performance stuff to a street bike to run up the road when rarely you can safely or legally WOT drive it thru the gears let alone in top gear.
It is interesting when you say "I don't push the limits on the bike." Not sure what that means. I have yet to understand why people do all the performance stuff to a street bike to run up the road when rarely you can safely or legally WOT drive it thru the gears let alone in top gear.
#24
01-10-2017, 03:28 PM
Road Master
I always figured that 100 mph and a lotta pep was enough - "hellsbells". Of course just because I figured it was enough did not mean that a younger copy of me did not "challenge" the truth a bit. OP may be right tho, he may have screwed the pooch. I have done the same...pity. 'spensive too!
#25
01-10-2017, 03:49 PM
It is interesting when you say "I don't push the limits on the bike." Not sure what that means. I have yet to understand why people do all the performance stuff to a street bike to run up the road when rarely you can safely or legally WOT drive it thru the gears let alone in top gear.
I had a SERDI valve job done on the heads, and decided to freshen the barrels and pistons while I was that far into it. I kept it at 88".....(only later to hear from industry experts that 95" might get better fuel mileage)
Like many rebuilds, it was a case of "one thing leads to another."
I was gonna keep the stock cams and as it turns out, my stock cams had some pretty severe "fretting" on the inner bearing surfaces. Had to change 'em anyway.so decided for the reliability of gear drive, and I went wit the mildest set available. The operational range is idle to MAYBE 4500 rpm. To be honest, 75mph is about as fast as I've gone on it, and it's rarely seen full throttle.
I reckon I get all the speed kicks I need with the drag car.
#26
01-14-2017, 03:09 PM
Banned
#27
01-15-2017, 07:00 AM
Seasoned HDF Member
I did have to fit the rings, but I don't use a piston for that. The bore size is really close to my VW motor, so I use my "ring squaring tool" which is essentially a chunk of aluminum bar that I cut in my lathe into a "T" shape that squares it as it pushes the ring down 1" from the top of the bore. I went .022" top and .024" second - a little less than my VW motors.
The VW motor uses Wisecos at .006" skirt clearance, and they clatter enough to be heard over open exhaust, until gets some heat in the motor. I have the motor apart at the moment, and those pistons and barrels don't show a lick of wear. Maybe a couple hundred runs on 'em.
The S&S pushrods (40tpi) were set for .120" preload.
So essentially, yeah, I shoulda checked the skirt to wall clearance. But then I have to ask, how many home builders, once getting a set of pistons and barrels actually do check?
In the meantime, it's been raining nearly non-stop here in Central California for nearly two weeks. At the moment, I have my racer to get ready for the Bakersfield March Meet, and it's scattered about in quite a few pieces. So, I'm just gonna chew on the bike "problem" (if it is a problem) for a bit.
Looks like a window in the weather is gonna open up by the weekend, so I'll take 'er out on a little ride and then dump the oil. If it has any crap in it, then I'll deal with it fairly soon. If not, maybe I'll ride it for a while and monitor it. Most likely, I'll look at buying a piston and cylinder kit either from S&S, Zippers or maybe see if Hillcycle can supply it.
BTW, the valvetrain noise stays consistent regardless of temp. Before doing this work, it would clatter when it got hot. And after shutting down after a long ride, the lifters seemed to bleed down quickly and clatter like hell until oil pressure built up. I took djl's advice as well as others and went for the S&S lifters and adjustable pushrods, then going with the 509 cam. No lifter clatter at all on start-up now, and a pleasant low pitched whine from cam gears.
Question....Are the SE pistons a dealer item? I'd like to buy a piston/cylinder set outright and change 'em out when I have time. Who's the best to buy from, if not from those I mentioned?
Jay, piston slap sounds a lot like a muffled rod knock, coming in at light load, from just above idle when the motor is cold. It starts to quiet as heat builds, and usually disappears after a coupla minutes. A rod knock usually grows louder with heat and rpm, and gets worse very quickly the longer it's operated. A rock knock will leave a bunch of very visible particles in the oil as it eats into the crank, bearing and connecting rod.
The VW motor uses Wisecos at .006" skirt clearance, and they clatter enough to be heard over open exhaust, until gets some heat in the motor. I have the motor apart at the moment, and those pistons and barrels don't show a lick of wear. Maybe a couple hundred runs on 'em.
The S&S pushrods (40tpi) were set for .120" preload.
So essentially, yeah, I shoulda checked the skirt to wall clearance. But then I have to ask, how many home builders, once getting a set of pistons and barrels actually do check?
In the meantime, it's been raining nearly non-stop here in Central California for nearly two weeks. At the moment, I have my racer to get ready for the Bakersfield March Meet, and it's scattered about in quite a few pieces. So, I'm just gonna chew on the bike "problem" (if it is a problem) for a bit.
Looks like a window in the weather is gonna open up by the weekend, so I'll take 'er out on a little ride and then dump the oil. If it has any crap in it, then I'll deal with it fairly soon. If not, maybe I'll ride it for a while and monitor it. Most likely, I'll look at buying a piston and cylinder kit either from S&S, Zippers or maybe see if Hillcycle can supply it.
BTW, the valvetrain noise stays consistent regardless of temp. Before doing this work, it would clatter when it got hot. And after shutting down after a long ride, the lifters seemed to bleed down quickly and clatter like hell until oil pressure built up. I took djl's advice as well as others and went for the S&S lifters and adjustable pushrods, then going with the 509 cam. No lifter clatter at all on start-up now, and a pleasant low pitched whine from cam gears.
Question....Are the SE pistons a dealer item? I'd like to buy a piston/cylinder set outright and change 'em out when I have time. Who's the best to buy from, if not from those I mentioned?
Jay, piston slap sounds a lot like a muffled rod knock, coming in at light load, from just above idle when the motor is cold. It starts to quiet as heat builds, and usually disappears after a coupla minutes. A rod knock usually grows louder with heat and rpm, and gets worse very quickly the longer it's operated. A rock knock will leave a bunch of very visible particles in the oil as it eats into the crank, bearing and connecting rod.
#28
01-15-2017, 10:11 AM
#29
01-15-2017, 10:51 AM
#30
01-15-2017, 11:22 AM
Thanks Mike. Maybe we'll meet up on the road sometime.
For the time being, and after some research and thought, I'm gonna leave it be for now and monitor things before just jumping in. I'll keep a lookout for a set of take-off barrels like djl suggested, check the compression and change the oil a bit more often in the short term while looking for signs in the oil.
If it doesn't deteriorate, I'll just learn to get used to it. If it does deteriorate, then I'll deal with it.
Thanks all for the advice and suggestions
For the time being, and after some research and thought, I'm gonna leave it be for now and monitor things before just jumping in. I'll keep a lookout for a set of take-off barrels like djl suggested, check the compression and change the oil a bit more often in the short term while looking for signs in the oil.
If it doesn't deteriorate, I'll just learn to get used to it. If it does deteriorate, then I'll deal with it.
Thanks all for the advice and suggestions
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