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Engine Mechanical Topics Discussion for motor builds, cams, head work, stripped bolts and other engine related issues. The good and the bad. If it goes round and around or up and down, post it here.

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Old 08-22-2005, 10:57 AM
HDF Tech HDF Tech is offline
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Default TC -ION Sensing Detection Explained

First ION knock detection is the direction most applications are going to use. The old PEZIO sensor relied on a vibration ( caused by some level of knock ) to register at the sensor, It is very hard to detect low levels of knock and seperate the singal ( knock from detonation ) from normal engine vibrations, such as valve closings on a Harley engine. On most vehicle applications the knock sensor can sense true knock from noise, but may not READ every cylinder in a multi-cylinder engine at every cylinder at every RPM, But most system use a GLOBAL retard scheme where any knock will retard spark to all cylinders at the same amount. New systems are going to indidvidaul cylinder knock detection where only the cylinder producing knock is retarded and only until knock ( detonation stops) so in a V8 or V6 you might only have one or two cylinders with any amount of retard.

The advantage of the ION system is it is not dependent on a sensor location and it can be calibrated to detect each cyclinder at all engine speeds and loads.


ION sensing knock detection does not use a Sensor that is externally mounted on the engine. The name ION sensing is derived from the fact that as detonation happens IONIZATION at the plug tip changes the resistence to fire the plug. The actual detection to this change in resistance is internal to the coil and the signal is sent back to the ECM. Software tables are then calibrated using model based software. The way it is calibrated is important to understand WHY some folks are having TROUBLE. A very sophisticated Combustion measurement system is placed on a development engine and actual cylinder pressures are recorded vs. crank angle degrees and coil operating ranges, as the engine is running at set speed and loads. By reading "NORMAL" outputs from the ignition module electronics to the ECM input and noting the change when detonation casues Peak cylinder pressures to rise, a model can be developed that as long as the signal from the ignition module is outputing the "expected NORMAL" signal back to the ECM no retard will occur. A change in resistence value and amount can be correlated to a given rise in pressure in the chamber during combustion.Detonation causes very large spikes in pressure even at very low levels of detonation, so the model can and does detect even before "audilble detonation ( that that can be heard ) happens. It is a very good system and very reliable with one HUGE exception. Detection is dependant on the values calibrated in the software that represent knock, and are based on a stock engine ( or a known modified engine such as the STAGE I,II etc.) with a GIVEN set of Production intent parts.ie , Spark plugs, wires, and even compression ratio can and does change the resistance at the coil. So once folks start changing wires, Plugs ( to non-factory specs) and modifing the engine cams, compression ratio etc,( and even expected A/F ratios, and therefore combustion temperature) the values derived form a production engine are no longer valid and may cause the software to "determine" that knock is present when it's not or fail to dectect knock when it is.

Just as production vehicles such as cars and trucks use similar schemes for many functions but most folks don't change parts or "hop-up" current cars with fuel injection systems... As an aside most people really don't know that if you change the aircleaner system or duct work ,even with a MASS AIRFLOW sensor you change the output of the mass airflow sensor. Those sensors are calibrated to read correctly only with a known set of induction parts. There is some amount of adaptablity in the fuel system but it is possible to get even a closed-loop system, to where the softeware cannot adapt enough for some changes that one might make. EXHAUST, intake etc.


So Harley knock detection is really not that different than other vehicle manufactures, it's US the users that may not understand the impact on a calibrated system
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:57 AM
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Johncr Johncr is offline
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Default Interesting Point

"Detection is dependant on the values calibrated in the software that represent knock, and are based on a stock engine ( or a known modified engine such as the STAGE I,II etc.) with a GIVEN set of Production intent parts.ie , Spark plugs, wires, and even compression ratio can and does change the resistance at the coil. So once folks start changing wires, Plugs ( to non-factory specs) and modifing the engine cams, compression ratio etc,( and even expected A/F ratios, and therefore combustion temperature) the values derived form a production engine are no longer valid and may cause the software to "determine" that knock is present when it's not or fail to dectect knock when it is."


Now, if we change our cams, expected A/F, compression ratio ETC. Is there a way to set the expected values so the knock detect system works as expected on a modified engine?
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:57 AM
 
 
 
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based, close, davidson, detection, detonation, harley, ion, knock, patent, plug, ratio, retard, sensing, sensor, spark, speed, tc


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