Ok...so some here probably remember my top end rebuild threads. Got the bike all back together quite some time ago....and although she's more noisy than before, the bike is running fine. I took it easy for the first 500 miles or so...following the break-in procedure for the new rings, and aside from a little smoke out the front pipe when I first start it after sitting for a day (it goes away instantly)....I haven't had any real problems....

Well....since the 500 mile break-in period was over, and the engine noise hadn't gotten any worse, I decided to bolt on the tour pak and take the girlfriend for a ride. The bike ran fine on the way to work and back, mostly interstate highway....and it ran fine on the way to her place. We leave her house and head east down Interstate 70 in Kansas City...everything seems fine.

About 15 or 20 miles into the trip, I slow down for some traffic when I notice smoke in the rear view. I look down, and the air cleaner is POURING oil all over the right side of the engine/trans/pipes/my leg/girlfriend's leg/saddlebag.....etc. I quickly pull to the shoulder and ride it to the next exit (I was practically already there) and pull into a gas station. The bike sill ran fine when I shut it down, and hadn't started making any noise. Just before noticing the smoke, I had applied throttle to go up a hill, and noticed that the motor sounded maybe ever-so-slightly flat...but nothing major.

Anyway....there was more oil on the engine than in it at this point. The dipstick is all but dry, and I ended up trailering the bike home. I was pretty bummed out, and decided to let it sit for a while before I started tearing it apart to find the problem. In the mean time, I ended up buying a new Street Glide.

So....I want to get this bike up and running again....and need to know where the problem might be. Could this be a faulty umbrella valve? Blockage in the rocker box drain hole? Something major? Anyone had this happen before? I'm sick to my stomach just thinking about it.

Any help is, as usual, greatly appreciated.

 

Can't say I've had exactly that... I read thru your older thread about the rebuild and still not sure as to exactly what all you did, but no matter. First, I'm willing to wager that a good portion, if not most of the oil missing from the tank is in the crankcase. If you lost 2 quarts thru the air filter, you and your girlfriend would have been soaked from the knee down....

I would suspect the return side of the oil pump has sheared the key and is not pumping back to the tank. But, you could have a broken ring(s). I've never seen or used the gapless rings mentioned on here before, so I don't know whether they overlap or what......

Here's my suggestion;

Since it went flat and was smoking, first pull the plugs and do a quick compression test. (both plugs out, throttle set wide-open for 5 compression strokes) With that few miles, it may be a little less depending on how you broke it in, but you should have 145 - 165 on each cylinder, with less than 10% difference between the 2. That will tell the ring/piston story.

I've never seen stopped up drains, but then "I've not seen it all" either. Unless you used "blue glue" to excess and the fact you already have 500 on it, I have to doubt the drains are a problem unless something was in there that should not have been....

If that checks out anywhere in the ballpark, pull the nose cone and see if you have WAY too much oil in there. Should be about a pint at the most. Assuming the compression checked out OK, that would not be wasted effort, as the oil pump is easier to service with it off, you can double check your breather timing and gear (though it alone would not cause this) and the gasket is inexpensive anyway.

PS - you don't have to do anything to the pushrods or covers to pull the nose cone.....

 

As far as the amount of oil that ran out of the air cleaner.....yes, both of our right legs were completely soaked...as well as the entire right side of the bike.

Also, I never used any "blue goo" at all. Hate the stuff. But I agree that there shouldn't have been anything in the engine that would stop up the drain holes as I made sure everything was very clean before reassembly.

I'll try to do the compression test tonight. If that checks out, and there is excess oil in the crank case, then I'm to assume the oil pump needs replaced? Or is the oil pump something you can rebuild?

 

Uh, is she still your girlfriend? Heck with the bike


Yes and no on the oil pump. Hopefully the compression IS good. And best case scenerio, something got into the oil pump return gears and sheared the key. Sometimes that will break a gear, but not always (purpose of the tiny key) and the shaft can get messed up. Impossible to say without tearing it down. One upside is, you have another ride, and can check it all out throughly without ordering unnecessary parts prematurely. (I'm the worlds worst for that) New oil pumps aren't terribly expensive if you shop around, and I personally would never recommend a high-dollar performance pump - way over-rated and over-priced. You can buy a simple "kit" with keys, lock rings, seal and gaskets via aftermarket, but genuine OEM gears are way too expensive.... so if the gears are trashed or there is any question, go with a new pump. Just be sure you find what locked it and that could even be a broken gear tooth.

Even with the nosecone off, you have to disassemble the pump piece at a time on the bike. The shaft is too long to remove as an assembly. Yes, do the compression check and if it's bad, then regroup. But unless it's terrible, the nosecone would be my next choice for a look-see. Or, you could simply drain the oil and disassemble the oil pump and see how much pours out of the case there... but whenever the oil pump is "broke" on the return side, best to look in the nosecone area for debris also...

So check it out and keep us posted

 

Not knowing any better, wouldnt the lifters raise hell if the pump broke?? Being "flat rate minded", wouldnt a pressure test give you an indicator? Somethings definitly wrong and it will need to be torn down, I'm sure, but I'd be inclined to check pressure first.. Just a thought..

BTW, Rufus, I may be sending you a message with some pictures this evening. Think I found something you'd be interested in knowing..

 

Greg,
The oil pump is actually two pumps in one. One pump pushes oil to the motor (bearings, up the push rods, etc.) and the other pump sucks the oil out of the crank case and pushes it back to the tank through the filter (Evo). They are suggesting that the other side is not working, which it sounds like to me.
Make sure it isn't something stoopid like a kinked oil return line or a totally blocked oil filter, but that's wishing. I think it's coming apart.

 

Ah, I knew he had a reason to suggest it. I just couldnt picture how to tie the symptom to the pump.. As always I tend to compare to the automotive stuff I know. Funny how different things can be..

 

Not really that different. Many race motors use the same type of system, known as a "Dry Sump." Early 80's Lotus motors were dry sump. You can buy a dry sump system for about any motor, if you have enough money. They tend to be quite expensive. The suction side is known as the "scavanger" side. I know a guy that made one for a Toyota 4AGE from two SBC oil pumps, one to suck the oil from the pan, one to push it to the motor. It then ran off a belt drive.

 

Guys,

To be honest I did not read the whole thread or about the entire rebuild. I can tell you this though, gapless rings like Total Seals were mentioned are not made for street bikes they are made for race engines. We had a very similar problem when rebuilding the engine in a 91 bottom breather dresser. Seems logical that it would cause this problem with a top breather engine.

Oil was collecting in the top end even though very little was coming out of the case breather. There was so much oil in the top end that it was getting past new guides, Viton valve seals and was sitting on top of ALL of the valves. We went nuts trying to figure this out including what has been mentioned by the members so far. We also did compression, leakdown tests and watched the ol returning to the tank.

The bottom line is we lightly honed and re-ringed the pistons with standard type rings. This solved the problem entirely, something worth considering.

 

Sounds like you sheared the key on the scavenge side of the oil pump. If your crankcase vents into the breather, then that's where all the oil went. The pump sends it to the engine where it drains back to the crankcase where the scavenge side sends it back to the tank. Without that side of the pump, the crankcase breather will blow it to where ever it vents too. In my case, to a breather at the back of the bike. In some cases, straight to the breather.

I had this happen in an old shovel once. The motor started running flat because a lifter's needle bearing came apart. One of the needles went through the pump which sheared the key dumping all my oil on the ground (vented to the ground via puke tube).