Hey guys, haven't been around lately but could use some advice. I've got a nice FLSTC I built a few years back with an R&R 113" motor and a Jims 6spd tranny. Not long after finishing the build, I started on a '66 GTO project, and only have less than 2K miles on the FLSTC.

Took it out last weekend, discovered what I thought was a rear cylinder head gasket leak. Called R&R, took it to a shop that R&R recommended, and am now told that the cylinder studs (on a brand new engine) are pulling. S&S was let's just say less than helpful. Classic problem - R&R say it's the S&S case. S&S says it could be that R&R "improperly torqued the studs" (though that doesn't sound likely to me.

Bottom line is that my options are to have the engine sent back to R&R, and they'll put a new case/block in and go through the engine - for over $2K. They'd be just getting another identical block to what just failed. No explanation as to why doing the same thing a second time will turn out any different IMHO.

Or, I could just bring the bike back, pull the motor, and try to figure out another solution myself - and maybe just sell the bike and get something else. I'm having a hard time justifying spending yet another $2500 or so on an engine with less than 2000 miles on it, with no obvious reason why it won't fail again.

Any ideas or suggestions?

 

I had the same thing happen to me on a stock block once. Pull the motor, split the cases and have a machine shop install Time-certs for all the studs. Don't even think of helicoil's. Time-certs are a solid thread repair not just a coiled spring like a helicoil.
I first found out about them about 15 yrs ago, they will be stonger than the original cases. You may just have had a bad casting. Porsche and Harley are very similar designs (piston, jugs, rocker boxes) Porsche found out that as cylinder bore increased, from 2.0 to 3.0, 3.2 that more and more studs were either being pulled out of the cases or just snapping.
This is because the thermal expansion of steel and aluminum are different. Porsche's answer was to use dilivar for the studs, supposed to be as close as they could get to similar thermal expansion between the steel studs and the aluminum cylinders and cases. If a stud ever pulled install time-certs dilivar studs and that would solve the problem.
Since you have such a low mileage motor, it should be really cheap to fix, just all the work in removing, disassembly and putting it back together.
No way close to 2 grand! If your doing it yourself except the machine work part of it, I don't think you would spend more than $400.00 including gaskets and oil.

 

Problem is that with the 4" bore, S&S apparently strongly recommends against certs, helicoils, etc. Insufficient wall thickness. I talked to them today. They could certainly be wrong but I'd have to send the work out. Nobody around here familiar.

The shop where the bike is at sells Bourgets, and apparently they had one with an issue, and Bourgey "pinned" some sort of insert. Not sure what they did, but I'm looking into it tomorrow.

Cost is because new cases themselves are over $1K to start with. Neither S&S nor R&R believe I should attempt to use the cases. I'm really ticked off. They're effectively brand new. Have a pretty sour taste in my mouth right now. I could understand a casting having a weak area, but I've got at least 5 of the studs that are pulling. That's a pretty big "weak area". And again, I'm disgusted with S&S at the moment.

One other thing I could do is just buy an Ultima motor. I know that the R&R and S&S stuff is supposed to be much better quality, but frankly what I'm experiencing couldn't be any worse. I've got a really expensive and very pretty oversized paperweight.

 

Look up Timeserts, I used them to repair my pulled studs.

 

Were either of you running a 4" bore? I'm told that whether it's a helicoil or any other "insert" it will simply have too thin walls.

 

That is so bullshit you have that much money into something and S&S won't cover it or
R&R for that matter But I keep hearing you get what you pay for Once again BULLSHIT!
I bought a USED ultima 113 that was run hard (I new the owner) Then I ran it hard got
a knock in it after about 1000 miles on top of what the first guy did I tore it down found the wrist pin worked past the clip called a couple shops about parts while waiting for a call back
I hear from midwest he asked what had happened I told him They sent me a hole top end plus gaskets and rockers and said send the old ones back All this on an out of warranty
second hand motor Will S&S ever do that? NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS
Sorry for the vent I get so pissed when I hear how good the more expensive **** is

Back to your dilemma I would just get ultima 113 cases the same dimensions as S&S
everything will bolt in and on to it cheaper and better warranty Then do the work yourself
with help from this GREAT forum Good luck I hope it works out for you

 

I find it hard to beleive the s&s cases don't have the
Room for Timeserts, I've checked out cases fro
S&s sitting on my buddies bench and there way beefier than the EVO cases. I really think your going to have to check a couple other sources on this.By the way I did 6 of the 8 stud holes with Timeserts without taking bottom end out of the bike.

 

I don't know, and don't forget you need to consider the alloy composition. Obviously the s&s case I have is soft or porous. What I'm worried about is putting the timeserts in and then having them fail, potentially causing yet more damage. Especially when both R&R and S&S are telling me not to do it.

I have both HD evo cases and the S&S evo case on the bike. Top end is still on the bike so I can't really compare, but again - this is not a stock bore. It's a 4" bore. There is less material as a result. Matter of fact, that's exactly the reason S&S said no inserts in 4" or larger bores, but who knows?

Did you only do 6 on the bike because that's all that needed done? Or did you have to do the other 2 with the motor off?

 

If you decide not to go with the Timeserts, then definetly look at the ultima 4" bore cases. They are good quality at a great price. Where are you located???
John

 

Well, spoke to Reggie Jr at R&R just a few minutes ago, and asked explicitly about Timeserts again. He strongly recommended against them and wasn't willing to use them. So, he's talking to Bourget later since I heard they may have run into this and done something different. I told him I'm not putting a new S&S case on the motor, since the first brand new one failed like this and it's too much money. If we don't come up with a reasonable alternative today, I'm bringing the bike back home and will think about it and deal with it over the winter. One thing for sure - I will never willingly give S&S another nickel if I can avoid it. What it looks like I'll do is to bring the bike home, pull the motor once I get to the point that I can look at it without getting too angry, and either find an Ultima case or just get an inexpensive Ultima motor to throw in the bike, and part out the R&R motor. The crank and cylinders are worth money, and the heads certainly are. It'll be pennies on the dollar, and probably one of the worst financial deals I've ever done but there's no way back at this point I think.

BTW, I'm in the Pgh PA area.