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Old 09-14-2012, 08:33 PM
Jasper86 Jasper86 is offline
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Default 98 road king (efi), sputtering, running on 1 cylinder

Reposted this from the touring forum, after someone mentioned that there was an evo-specific forum. Mods, feel free to delete my other thread if need be.


Hey guys, new to the forum, and new to harleys (luckily, not new to wrenching on most anything mechanical)

I got a 98 road king (evo, EFI) from a buddy of mine. got it *cheap* because it had a low (read: NO) oil pressure problem. with the help of another buddy of mine (who's been working on harleys since he was 12) we traced it back to a broken snap ring inside the cam chest, that let the woodruff key back off the oil pump drive shaft. fixed it, and woohoo, 20-30PSI

that seems to be where my problems started. the bike has 4800 miles on it (yes, its LOW). my buddy bought it in 04 with 4100 on it, and only put 700 miles on it in the time he had it...when he lost oil pressure, he had a mechanic fix it (new S&S oil pump) and rode it ~ 20 miles before it lost oil pressure again (because of the broken snap ring). he trailered it home and parked it. it sat for the last ~ 4 years or so.



rather than detail every last thing i went through to get to this point, i'll list whats been replaced

new fuel pump
new preformed lines (inside the tank)
new fuel filter
new intake manifold seals/gaskets
new plugs
new wires
new check valves in the fuel tank (these were missing, but thats a story for another day)
fresh fuel (93 octane), with a fuel system cleaner/octane booster added


the bike is running like hell, and seems to have gotten worse since I fixed the intake manifold seals (i took a picture that i'll link here, shows the rear cylinder intake manifold is light brown, where the front jug is jet black (heavy on the carbon). it's BARELY able to get out its own way at low RPMs / part throttle....feels/sounds like its running on 1 cylinder, but, it gets past the stumble and it RIPS (fairly sure the original owner had put some $$$ into the bike...ECM scan/test run by the local shop said it was running a ScreamingEagle "Stage2" map, which usually means intake/exhaust/cam (it does have the harley "stage 1" intake kit w/ K&N filter, and V&H slip ons).

i'm at a loss. I'm either looking at (i think) replacing injectors (@ $106/each, harley only part apparently), or replacing the coil (~$160). my girlfriend followed me on my test ride tonight, and her only comment was how much it was backfiring through the pipes, and how it smelled VERY heavily of gas

I've already got a fair chunk of change invested into *fixing* it, but if this goes much farther, the whole MM efi system is getting torn out and i'm putting a mikuni on there....at least I know how to work on carbs


any gurus who can offer some insight? I'm sure ive forgotten to mention something I did, so i'll update as I remember.

Thanks

Last edited by Jasper86; 09-14-2012 at 09:00 PM..
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Old 09-14-2012, 08:56 PM
Jasper86 Jasper86 is offline
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picture of the intake ports on the heads, taken while I had the manifold off

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-q...-30-25_777.jpg

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  #3  
Old 09-14-2012, 09:06 PM
im im is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper86 View Post
Reposted this from the touring forum, after someone mentioned that there was an ego-specific forum. Mods, feel free to delete my other thread if need be.


Hey guys, new to the forum, and new to harleys (luckily, not new to wrenching on most anything mechanical)

I got a 98 road king (evo, EFI) from a buddy of mine. got it *cheap* because it had a low (read: NO) oil pressure problem. with the help of another buddy of mine (who's been working on harleys since he was 12) we traced it back to a broken snap ring inside the cam chest, that let the woodruff key back off the oil pump drive shaft. fixed it, and woohoo, 20-30PSI

that seems to be where my problems started. the bike has 4800 miles on it (yes, its LOW). my buddy bought it in 04 with 4100 on it, and only put 700 miles on it in the time he had it...when he lost oil pressure, he had a mechanic fix it (new S&S oil pump) and rode it ~ 20 miles before it lost oil pressure again (because of the broken snap ring). he trailered it home and parked it. it sat for the last ~ 4 years or so.



rather than detail every last thing i went through to get to this point, i'll list whats been replaced

new fuel pump
new preformed lines (inside the tank)
new fuel filter
new intake manifold seals/gaskets
new plugs
new wires
new check valves in the fuel tank (these were missing, but thats a story for another day)
fresh fuel (93 octane), with a fuel system cleaner/octane booster added


the bike is running like hell, and seems to have gotten worse since I fixed the intake manifold seals (i took a picture that i'll link here, shows the rear cylinder intake manifold is light brown, where the front jug is jet black (heavy on the carbon). it's BARELY able to get out its own way at low RPMs / part throttle....feels/sounds like its running on 1 cylinder, but, it gets past the stumble and it RIPS (fairly sure the original owner had put some $$$ into the bike...ECM scan/test run by the local shop said it was running a ScreamingEagle "Stage2" map, which usually means intake/exhaust/cam (it does have the harley "stage 1" intake kit w/ K&N filter, and V&H slip ons).

i'm at a loss. I'm either looking at (i think) replacing injectors (@ $106/each, harley only part apparently), or replacing the coil (~$160). my girlfriend followed me on my test ride tonight, and her only comment was how much it was backfiring through the pipes, and how it smelled VERY heavily of gas

I've already got a fair chunk of change invested into *fixing* it, but if this goes much farther, the whole MM efi system is getting torn out and i'm putting a mikuni on there....at least I know how to work on carbs


any gurus who can offer some insight? I'm sure ive forgotten to mention something I did, so i'll update as I remember.

Thanks
For such a low mileage bike it sure had issues and stuff replaced.
1-The 98 efi was a road king classic (first year of the leather bags)...that year some bikes had issues with the odometer bleeding and made reading miles ridden difficult. The common solution was replacement.
2-The fuel tank has a tendency to lose a small bit of the inside liner/paint at the bottom of fuel gauge inside tank. (clogs fuel pick-up/starve for fuel) wipe and clean and no parts required.
3-The fuel lines leak at the swivel at about the 8 year mark..Harley hoses are expensive while their is one aftermarket company that is half the price or less...bike will tart to have a small leak but later progress to fuel starvation.
4-The little parts in the throttle body get dirty but unless your bike was left in the woods or sank in a lake it is unlikely with 5,000 miles.
5- The cam position sensor melts, right foot under the timer cone you will see melted stuff starting to leak...makes for hard starting and code #56..progress to no start condition.
6-The crank sensor...also code #56...located by the oil filter...follow that dam wire all around the dam motor to the throttle side of bike and remove the plastic painted cover on side of bike. Reach your hand behind that piece of frame and look for the dam connector of that dam crank position sensor..The dam connector is hidden but it is just behind the frame tube and continues to the ECM...Thing is that the connector is a push and turn but over the years it gets loose and causes a loose connection that will drive you crazy until you find that dam connector and zip tie it. (then no more miss fires/hesitation etc)
7-ECM pins, if this was a snow bike the ecm pins get corrosion and it is very possible that it would cause all kinds of faults.
8-front rocker cover should be leaking near front cylinder exhaust due to age not miles..you may hear a wiff/wiff and smell fuel and will see a slight oil leak.
9-Finally the engine temp sensor in the front chimney..center and deep will cause hesitation, eratic idle and terrible riding especially at low speed.
*try looking at the above and purchase nothing until confirmed. All of the above can be checked with very basic (cheap) everyday tools in very little time..do you know how to read the codes for free?

Last edited by im; 09-14-2012 at 09:14 PM..
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  #4  
Old 09-14-2012, 09:16 PM
Jasper86 Jasper86 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by im View Post
For such a low mileage bike it sure had issues and stuff replaced.
1-The 98 efi was a road king classic (first year of the leather bags)...that year some bikes had issues with the odometer bleeding and made reading miles ridden difficult. The common solution was replacement.
2-The fuel tank has a tendency to lose a small bit of the inside liner/paint at the bottom of fuel gauge inside tank. (clogs fuel pick-up/starve for fuel) wipe and clean and no parts required.
3-The fuel lines leak at the swivel at about the 8 year mark..Harley hoses are expensive while their is one aftermarket company that is half the price or less...bike will have a small leak but later progress to fuel starvation.
4-The little parts in the throttle body get dirty but unless you bike was left in the woods or sank in a lake it is unlikely with 5,000 miles.
5- The cam position sensor melts, right foot under the timer cone you will see melted stuff starting to leak...makes for hard starting and code #56
6-The crank sensor...also code #56...located by the oil filter...follow that dam wire all around the dam motor to the throttle side of bike and remove the plastic painted cover on side of bike. Reach your hand behind that piece of frame and look for the dam connector of that dam crank position sensor..The dam connector is hidden but it is just behind the frame tube and continues to the ECM...Thing is that the connector is a push and turn but over the years it gets loose and causes a loose connection that will drive you crazy until you find that dam connector and zip tie it. (then no more miss fires/hesitation etc)
7-ECM pins, if this was a snow bike the ecm pins get corrosion and it is very possible that it would cause all kinds of faults.
*try looking at the above and purchase nothing until confirmed. All of the above can be checked with very basic (cheap) everyday tools in very little time..do you know how to read the codes for free?

thanks for the quick reply!

1: odometer is indeed bleeding, but its not impeding the view just yet, and its nothing that'll affect how it runs, so its low on the list

2: cleaned out the tank entirely (had it off the bike) when I did the new fuel pump/lines/filter

3: fuel lines arent leaking, although the check valves were missing completely (the previous owner replaced a dented tank with a salvage-yard find, and failed to swap the check valves over to the new tank...how it never leaked is beyond me (it sure leaked when I put the tank back on though)...these check valves have me wondering if they're causing a restriction though (any reason I can't gut the ball and springs out of them?)

4: TB is clean as a whistle. went through it when I had it off to do the intake seals (also replaced the intake air temp sensor while I had it off, since I had a brand new one....and used my multimeter to verify the TPS was working properly)

5: havent checked the cam sensor...but I'll definitely check that this weekend

6: same as cam sensor, havent checked it...but I'll look for the connector you mentioned

7: I did pull every electrical connector I could find to check for any corrosion. the only ones that had even a hint of corrosion were the spade connectors for the fuel pump (under the canopy)

8: havent noticed a leak @ the front rocker cover (had the tank off yesterday), but had the front header off to get into the cam chest last week, and replaced that exhaust gasket. no audible leaks

9: I've suspected the ETS since day 1, as SOON as I started doing research on it. unfortunately it's a bit pricey, and not really needed if I go carb


I'll be tearing into the bike again on sunday (got a wedding tomorrow, kinda bummed I cant ride there)


and no, I dont know how to read the codes for free, but you can bet i'm googling it right now!

Last edited by Jasper86; 09-14-2012 at 09:37 PM..
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Old 09-14-2012, 09:28 PM
Jasper86 Jasper86 is offline
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ok, read the codes, did the whole procedure a few times just to make sure...odd though, first 2 times, i got 2 different "codes"....3rd and 4th times, it ONLY did the rapid flash sequence

i'm getting code 32, and 24 (rear injector, and coil)...unfortunately thats what I was afraid of. gotta check into the wiring first, make sure I didnt lose a wire somewhere

as for ignitions: is it stock-only for the MM efi? or is there an aftermarket I can buy (preferably one that will work on a carb conversion?)

for the hell of it, anyone got an extra carb manifold kicking around? I'm handy with wires (its what I do for a living), and with all these unused sensors (if i do the carb conversion), i bet I could just move some wires/pins around inside the molex connectors and get what I need to make the bike work...i'm really not willing to throw another $300 or so into this to *see* if it'll fix it

Last edited by Jasper86; 09-14-2012 at 09:40 PM..
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:55 PM
Jasper86 Jasper86 is offline
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well, data is good when it comes to troubleshooting.

posted the above from a buddies house (~ 10miles from home), went there ~ 8pm, was ~ 70-75 degrees out, bike ran like hell.

just came home (11pm), was cooler (thermometer said 65 degrees), bike ran like a freakin TOP. what could I be looking at that would cause ALL these issues when its warmer, and make them all go away when it gets cooler?
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Old 09-15-2012, 08:01 AM
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1997bagger 1997bagger is offline
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Ok, electrical controls will breakdown when hot and work when cooling off so explains some issues. M&M igniton has tendancies for the cam pickup to melt and cause problems, the module seems to work when distorted but fail when the goo starts coming out. The coil is a single fire and solid as a rock BUT tendancies for loosing a 1 cylinder is usually a coil breaking down when hot. Raw fuel coming out the back and popping is a ignition problem as if an injector is underfueling, no smoke is present and overfueling with ignition firing well is black.

On a carb conversion, it is possible to use to use the M&M ignition with a carb and keep the computer intact but the Ultima 2000I system has been a good install on carb conversions and replacing the ignition system is best as a check engine light will stay on at all times from the injectors, I don't know if the M&M ecm has the ability to go into a default mode.

My M&M was functioning when I did a conversion, the Evo forum has a reputation of helping and the best around, I will send you test parts if needed in return of just staying honorable to me and the Evo section. Let me know.
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:01 PM
larsfum larsfum is offline
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You can check the resistance on the ETS to see if it needs replacing. Here is a chart that is in the service manual. You may also want to do a wiggle test to the wires leading to the injectors, and see if you can get the problem to replicate. Lastly, you can also swap the injectors around to see if it is one or the other of them.
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Last edited by larsfum; 09-15-2012 at 01:05 PM..
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Old 09-16-2012, 12:49 PM
EVOrider EVOrider is offline
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I had an issue like your description on my 1998 Ultra. In fact, I was getting the same codes as well.

I had a short in the wire to the rear injector. The factory wiring to the injector had a very sharp bend in it and was too tight. Over the years, it finally broke.

If you have your fuel tank off, look for the bend in at the wire loom. On mine, it was tightly ziptied to the frame. Once, I trimmed back some of the wire loom...I was able to see the break.

I actually found the problem by having the bike running while on the sidestand. I took a small wooden dowl rod and wiggling various wires under the tank. I bumped the injector wire just right...and it ran perfect. Removed the rod...the bike ran like crap. I then knew I had a short. Strange way at finding a problem....but it did work.
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Old 09-16-2012, 01:45 PM
Jasper86 Jasper86 is offline
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Well, gonna start tearing into it now. Went for a ride, made it ~40 miles before it started sputtering, although it seems to be getting worse (stumble is lasting longer, and seems just about indefinite in higher gears. I made it home, but even idling it feels like its barely holding on 1 cylinder. I don't have a coil tester, so im currently searching for ways to test that (don't wanna just buy a new one from HD @ $165)

ok, tried to run the diagnostic (ran it half a dozen times, actually), but the numbers its spitting back at me arent making any sense (its completely possible I missed a "1" in there, which is why i did it a few times)

3 6 5 4 2 (first time)
4 3 1 (second time)
4 2 1 (third)
6 6 4 3 1 (4th)
3 5 6 6 (5th)


im sure i'm screwing something up, but what worries me was the first one (36, 54....54 being a "junked" ECM code). Waiting on a call back at the moment from a buddy of mine, then gonna limp it over to his garage, and start tearing into it.


anyone got some spare parts lying around? carbs going on, so i'm making a list of the stuff I need as we speak (or at least trying to find someone elses completed list)

Last edited by Jasper86; 09-16-2012 at 03:32 PM..
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Old 09-16-2012, 01:45 PM
 
 
 
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