Guys,

i have a basically stock 88" in my '05 Deuce except for SE intake and Python pipes and I'm looking at going to 95" for a performance increase. I'm trying to decide between the bolt on SE parts or having my heads ported and polished and my cylinders bored. I keep hearing you can get better performance by modifying your stock heads and cylinders instead of the SE bolt ons. Opinions?

I'm looking more for torque than HP. I'm also planning on HC pistons, new cams and pushrods and either a PCIII, Thundermax, or a SERT. A couple of machinists keep saying they can do much better on airflow by reworking my stock heads than you can get on the SE heads. They are also telling me they will get a tighter fit by boring my cylinders rather than getting the 95" jugs. Is that true? Also, should I go with forged pistons or cast? With my Softail I keep hearing you should keep it under 6200 rpm and that cast is OK.

Here's the plan so far. Custom porting and polishing on the stock heads rather than the SE bolt ons. SE HC pistons, either cast or forged since I'm not going with high rpm's since it's a balanced Softail and no valve upgrades. I've been looking at the SE 204 & 211 cams and the Andrews 26G, 31G or 37G. I think I'm gonna go the extra for gear drive cams. It seems with the HC pistons that the Andrews 31G or 37G would be a better choice. I don't know how they really compare to the SE 204 or 211 though. I think they are all about a .510 lift but have different timing. Also, is a .510 enough lift for a HC engine? I'm looking for low to mid torque, something that kicks in about 2200 and is as flat as i can get up to about 5800. I think the timing between the SE and Andrews cams is quite different so I'm looking for some help on that.

I'm checking out a couple of buiders and trying to decide which one to use. They seem to pretty much agree on most things but not all so that's why I'm asking these questions. They all agree on modifying my stock heads rather than the SE bolt ons, one says use the 95" jugs and the other says for a better fit to bore out my stock ones to match the pistons he gets, which makes sense. They also agree on the SE HC pistons and say that the cast ones should be fine since i have a balanced crank and should not rev over 6200. I was debating on going with forged while their in the engine, but didn't know if it's worth the extra money. They are also both saying I should not need any valvetrain work. Opinions?

The main differences in opinions seem to be in the cams and fuel management. The debate is whether to use the SERT, PCIII or Thundermax. Anybody try the SERT versus the PCIII or Thundermax? Does the PCIII allow any ignition adjustment or just fuel flow and do you need ignition adjustment with the upgrade I'm looking at? I just want a good streetable engine that's dependable. I'm also getting some conflicting info on whether or not the ignition timing needs to be adjusted. The other biggy is the cams and it sounds like the gear driven are worth the extra money but one says use SE cams like a 204 or 211 and the other is fond of Andrews cams either a 26, 31 or 37. They both agree on a .510 lift which from what I can see all of these cams fit that spec but it looks like the timing is the big difference in these cams and the Andrews all seem in a different range than the SEs.


I'm also being told by the machinists that they can get about 100HP and 115 ft lbs of torque their way. The SE book says with their parts I should get about 85HP and 95 ft lbs of torque. Is someone pulling my chain or can you get that much difference in the heads?

Any help and opinions are appreciated.

Rick

 

Rick you are long winded.........Thats way too much for me to type so I invite you to give me a call at HDMD Tuning Center listed in my Signature below between 8:30am to 5:30pm Florida time. Looking forward to talk with you.

 

I personally think cast pistons are fine in a street engine, and especially when you say you want an emphasis on torque rather than horsepower. I think most people agree you can get a better job done by boring your own cylinders. After all, that's what the SE cylinders are- bored out stock cylinders.
I think Andrews cams are better than Harley's and that the TW21 or 26 is the best forlow end, meaning you can just twist the throttle to pass at 60 or 70 mph. You can go with more duration with more compression, but you still end up moving the powerband up the rpm range with a cam that closes the intake later. But, I have to admit, a lot of people love the TW37.
The TC heads are under developed from the factory- the old Evo heads outflow them even though the TC has a superior design. I think it's pointless to do anything more than the air cleaner and exhaust on a Twinkie without modifying the heads. As for horsepower claims- you can make a dyno lie pretty easily. So I won't debate numbers. But I think you'll be happy with what you're talking about.
Lots of people like the SERT, lots like the PCIII, don't know about the Thundermax.

 

Kudo's to you for doing your homework!

Doc is right.... that's a lot to try to respond to in a post.

In general, of the cams you listed, the Andrews 31 is really the only one that is "designed" for "high compression".

Whatever ya end up with, BE SURE that everything "works well TOGETHER". Use components in a configuration that compliment one another.

You really need to evaluate the way you like to ride and go with a build that best matches your style. DO NOT GET CAUGHT UP in numbers! I do not believe that 100/115 is attainable in the configuration you mentioned. It "might" be, if the dyno operator gives uncorrected numbers and conditions are perfect. However, that is pointless.

As far as cast vs forged.... honestly, the S/E cast pistons are fine for most street builds and they typically make for quieter running engines bacause they have teflon impregnated skirts. I did recently see some forged Wiseco's (in HarleyRULZ build) that also had teflon in the skirts. That was kinda "best of both worlds".

In closing, talking to folks like Doc is the way to go. The "key" to it, is to provide him/them with as much info as you can about what your goals & objectives are and then FOLLOW THEIR DIRECTIONs.

 

I'll give you my .02 worth.

I built a 95" that put out 102hp and 115 tq. Build was HD HTCC pistons, HD HTCC Heads, Stock throttle body, PC III tuner, SE air cleaner, Rinehart true duals and the key to the build was the Woods Performance TW5G gear drive cam which is .575 lift and needs the HD HTCC heads to handle the high lift. The bike was an absolute joy to ride, no pinging if tuned right and gobs of low end torque with a flat torque curve that only slightly started to fall off at about 5000 rpm.

Cast pistons are fine, and either boring your own jugs or buying new is fine, boring your own will save you a bit of money and the jugs are "seasoned" so any expansion/distortion worries are eliminated but when I built this engine I did use new 95" HD jugs with no problems. Key to any build is setting the quench to get the combustion chamber to the right cc's and CR where it belongs.
Sert in the right hands is fine but there are a lot of shops that really aren't good with it and it requires a dyno for fine tuning, PC III in the right hands is fine and also requires a dyno, but I am running on my current build (see sig pic for details) a Daytona Twin Tech TCFI II tuner which I tune myself from my laptop and has all variables able to be adjusted, A/F, Timing, Air start adder, and also "self tunes" as you ride eliminating the need for tuning while on the dyno, adjusting the A/F and based on the parameters you input and build of the engine.

If you go with other than HD parts I suggest you go with a "kit" from one of the reputable builders such as GMR, Head Quarters, Kuryakin etc as the components are matched and will build thebest numbers when used together.

 

for a point of reference...

'05 Wide Glide
HD SE 95" Stage I kit (stock cams)
V&H Pro Pipe
PCIII

Dyno'd at 80/88

 

Thanks to everyone for the input! I'm trying to gather as much info as possible before Itake the leap and as far as I'm concerned, no place better to ask than the forums where people have experience and will tell you the truth! Thanks Doc for the offer on the call. I'll take you up on that and look forward to talkinbg with you soon.

Rick

 

211's with high comp cast pistons, and stock heads will get you a killer budget 95". Numbers will range from 90-100hp in both torque and hp.

 

Sorry to say this to you fripple but if you do builds and tuning for a living you would soon find out that the se211 is the least disirable cam out there. Yes it will give you more power but matched up with an Andrews or woods cams it can't compete. Sorry not trying to hurt your feelings and this isn't just my opinion....it's dyno proven.

 

Not hurting my feelings any. I've seen tons of dyno's with stock heads, high comp cast, and 211's. They all looked killer to me.........