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  #1  
Old 03-28-2010, 01:32 PM
tracman63 tracman63 is offline
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Default Screamin Eagle Hydro Cam Plate Probelm

I got a problem. Maybe I caused it myself, not sure. I Have a 2000 EGlide. First set of tensioners was completely gone (metal to metal) and replaces by the dealer at 63000 miles. Cams had to be replaced also due to the HD soft cam problem. Replaced them with stock grinds. Second set of tensioners lasted to almost 88,000 (shoes disintegrated almost metal to metal). I wanted longevity, so I tore it all down, crank runout was at 0.003" with camplate removed. I decided to installed the new Screamin Eagle Hydraulic Cam Plate Upgrade. Unfortunately, for 2000 and 2001 the new primary roller chain in the kit can't be used because of the M&M fuel injection has a cam position sensor on the large primary chain sprocket. Instructions say to use the old chains and sprockets. I had the dealer press in the old cams into the new plate and ask them to check the secondary chain if it needed replacement. They used the old chain. Installed everything per instructions and factory manual, including the new high flow oil pump. I also added new lifters and a Baisley Oil Pressure Spring. Used stock pushrods, non-adjustable type, new gaskets and o-rings everywhere. When reassembling, I couldn't torque all of rocker arm support plate bolts due to close proximity to the frame, so I torqued all that could be reach to mid-spec to get a feel for the pressure and finished the others using that feel. I did use the factory specified pattern.

Everything seems good until the bike heats up. Then it starts clattering like heck, (like lifters with no oil) and eventually it dies. Oil pressure is good and no warning light on the dash. Let cool down and all is ok until it heats up again. The other day I could hear it surging before I pulled over and it died as I pulled in the clutch. It fired again after it cooled. Tore it all down again and couldn't find anything. Runs the same afterward. In my opinion the chains are a little lose (probably the original set). Could it be that the when it heats the chains expand and get a little too long causing this noise and a valve timing problem?

Next step is to change the Primary Cam Chain to the roller chain supplied in the kit. I found out that Andrews makes the sprocket that HD doesn't supply in this kit for the 2000 and 2001 bikes. Maybe this will answer one of the chain length questions?

Anybody got any ideas on this one?
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Screamin Eagle Hydro Cam Plate Probelm-p1010026c.jpg  
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  #2  
Old 03-28-2010, 04:48 PM
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djl djl is offline
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Sounds like you may have a couple of things going on. First thing that comes to mind on an early model FL that heats up and dies but restarts when cool is the main circuit breaker. A very common problem on early FLs. As the breaker ages, it rating is downgraded and it will fail prematurely. With the miles you have rolled up, it is worth checking.

I know the circuit breaker doesn't have anything to do with the noise related to what sounds like dry lifters which is why I thing there may be two things going on. With the recent work in the cam chest, sumping could be contributing to the this problem. Oil pump alignment and the fitment of the oil pump neck into the crankcase scavenge port both can cause sumping. A sumping bike will not scavenge the crankcase well and the crankcase fills up with oil. I have drained nearly a full quart from the crankcase of a sumping bike. The symptoms are heating up quickly and over heating as well as general sluggishness like the bike is pulling a boat anchor.

Does the bike heat up quickly? Does it overheat? Does it fell sluggish? Don't know if either of these are contributing to your problem and it is nearly impossible to diagnose this way. However, those two things would be worth checking just to elminate them as possible contibutors.
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Old 03-28-2010, 06:06 PM
tracman63 tracman63 is offline
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Thanks djl.

I will read up on the Breaker in the manual and see how to test it. For the sumping issue, not sure why this would be happening. I used a new O-ring at the connection of the case to the pump and the New SE Camplate/HO Oil Pump does not use as O-ring at the pump cam plate interface. I used the Oil Pump Alignment Screws when installing the cam plate and pump.

Overheating: Doesn't seem like it.

Does it heat up quickly? It does not seem to be different than usual but it is hard to tell. It has always been kind of a noisy bike to begin with and at riding speed you can't really here anything. The noise is clearly noticeable when coming to a stop.

Slugish? It could be. It seemed like 5th was extra doggy just before it quit. But with stock cams & heads and 88,000 miles, it ain't no rocket ship to begin with.

Do you think maybe the Baisley Spring could be contributing to the sumping. Oil pressure is definitely up from where it was before with this level one spring. I like to see this but if it is causing the problem then I can go back to the HD supplied spring. When I go i in to change the Primary chain I can change this spring also.

Do you think this sumping issue could be causing the valvetrain clatter?

Thanks
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Old 03-28-2010, 11:33 PM
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mtclassic mtclassic is offline
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sumping should not cause valve train clatter. Your baisley spring should actually help quiet the clatter down a bit. Even if your original cam chain was stretched a bit the tensioners should take up enough slack so there should not be enough of a problem with your timing to cause it to shut down or make noise. I have 76000 on mine and I expect that it after that many miles they are going to make some clatter. Are you sure your noise is excessive or just normal T/C noise in a bike that has almost 90,000 miles.
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Old 03-29-2010, 01:23 PM
riskyfool riskyfool is offline
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When I changed from gear drive cams to the new hydrolic cam plate and oil pump I noticed that the new cam plate had these screw-in plugs instead of the ball bearing plugs that you see in the stock plate. I did not know that the ball bearings were actually plugs - I thought they allowed oil to pass through.

I asked the parts guy at the dealer, "why does this plate have these screw-in plugs? It looks different than my stock cam plate."

He told me to just remove them, and I think said something about that's just how they ship.

So I removed the plugs. But before I installed it all in the bike, I just wasn't 100% sure the plugs should be pulled. I'm very glad I had the thought to investigate it further and found that the plugs need to remain in the plate, and that damage will result if they are removed. Could this be your problem? Did you remove the plugs? If so, put 'em back!

Side by side pic of new plate and stock:

Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 03-29-2010, 02:41 PM
tracman63 tracman63 is offline
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mtclassic, I am sure it is not a normal noise. The noise is not there on start up. It clatters only after it heats up. After I installed the plate, on the first start up it takes 5 to 10 seconds before the oil fills the pump and passageways and eventually pressurizes the lifters, dispite pre-filling the lifters and pushrods with oil in advance. It was quite noisy during this period and then things quited down. Believe me, when it makes this noise on the initial startup, it seems like minutes not seconds. Anyway, when the bike heats up the clatter comes back, almost as loud it did on the first start up after the R&R. Now, if you fire the bike up cold, there no noise at all.

Before Hydro Camplate Upgrade it was a little noisy, but nothing like this. This is why I decided since it was all apart to change the lifters and install the Baisley Spring.

The first time out after the R&R, I when about 30 miles in 50 degree weather. Got off the highway and heard all this clatter. About another 2 miles later came rolling up to a stop light, Pulled in the clutch and it died. Rolled to a stop off to the side and hit the starter button attempting to restart it. The starter seemed to bind up. At this point I got a serious case of Buttpucker! I figured something came loose and the timing got out of whack and I crashed some valves into a piston. I used HOG to get it home. Never attempted to start it again. Tore it all down again and all I could find was that one of the new lifters looked a little discolored. Almost like a little heat discoloration. Not very pronounced but different from the others. So when putting it back together again I dropped another new lifter in that bore. No change, still makes the noise after it heats up. Never figured out why the starter bound up.

riskyfool: I left the little plugs installed, but thank for the thought.
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Old 03-29-2010, 04:36 PM
xxxflhrci xxxflhrci is offline
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After my cam swap, my bike goes from dead quiet to pretty noisy after it gets hot...Not as noisy as empty lifters, but noisy enough to drive me nutz at first...I listened to all the "experts" and adjusted pushrods this way and that way, swapped lifters, and added the famed Baisly spring. Nothing made it go away. I heard similar reports from several other 26G users. I said the heck with it and rode on. That was 25k miles ago. I don't pay any attention to it now.
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2000 Road King Classic. Andrews 26G cams, SE Stage I, DFO, V&H True Duals with Samson Fishtail Mufflers.

1977 XLH, Nearly bone stock.
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Old 03-29-2010, 04:49 PM
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I went back and read the OP again and, if I understand correctly, the only work that has been done on this engine in nearly 90K miles is the replacement of cams, cam chain tensioners and SE cam plate?

The only way to eliminate the new cam plate as the problem would be to pull her down and revert to the original cam plate.

If you decide to check for sumping, just to elimnate sumping, is to take her out for a ride, get her up to operating temp and when you return home, pull the crankcase drain plug and if more that 4-6 ounces of oil comes out, she is sumping. Sumping would not be contributing to the valve train clatter but any time work is done in the cam chest, sumping is possible.

Does the engines performance fall of when hot and the clatter starts or does it just clatter but continues to operate normally? I know it has quit on you when it get's hot but you need to address the circuit breaker before we can associate the quitting with the operating condition of the engine.

It sounds as though the lifters are bleeding down when they get hot but the lifters are new?

I think it's time for a compression and leakdown test? It doesn't take much cylnder wear to make noise that is very hard to distinguish from valve train noise. You just might have arrived at that point coincidental with the cam chest work.
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Old 03-29-2010, 05:20 PM
Old Gunny Old Gunny is offline
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My old two cents here.

The comment about the breaker could be something to look at.

When you put in the new oil pump did you check alinement?

My book says and I would do this anyway, is to install the pump and plate but tighten the 4 bolts around the pump just finger tight, then turn the rear wheel, in gear, and let the oil pump rotors center up in their cavity as the engine goes around a few times. Then tighten bolts per instructions. Double check easy rotation.

If all that is OK couple of things.

The steel cam chain will not streatch, from heat, more that the aluminum plate. Less actually. Tiny amount anyway.
Having said that 88,000 miles on a silent chain is enough. What they are called, silent chains.

Another thing.
If all is OK with the pump and cam installation the noise sounds like the lifters are leaking and bottoming out.

You said the engine has stock cam. Stock pushrods. Lifter adjusted to stock settings?

When the engine is cold the lifters are forced to the bottom, but the engine has shrunk some. Quiet and valves open OK.
As it gets hot the cilenders grow faster and more than the pushrods. So things are opened up some. At some point there is more demenstion change than the lifters can handle. Noise

When you stop hot and before cooldown the lifters leak all the way down or at least 0.100 probably 0.150 actually. In a minute or so I bet.
Stock cam is what?? with lift 0.475 or so, you loose to a cam lift to 0.325 or so total. Barely off the seat. Hard starting and noise.

So think about that. Just a couple things is all.

If all is OK with the chaines and oil pump you might look into adjustable pushrods or pushrods 0.0100" longer that you have. HD sell them.
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:20 AM
tracman63 tracman63 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djl View Post
I went back and read the OP again and, if I understand correctly, the only work that has been done on this engine in nearly 90K miles is the replacement of cams, cam chain tensioners and SE cam plate?

The only way to eliminate the new cam plate as the problem would be to pull her down and revert to the original cam plate.

If you decide to check for sumping, just to elimnate sumping, is to take her out for a ride, get her up to operating temp and when you return home, pull the crankcase drain plug and if more that 4-6 ounces of oil comes out, she is sumping. Sumping would not be contributing to the valve train clatter but any time work is done in the cam chest, sumping is possible.

Does the engines performance fall of when hot and the clatter starts or does it just clatter but continues to operate normally? I know it has quit on you when it get's hot but you need to address the circuit breaker before we can associate the quitting with the operating condition of the engine.

It sounds as though the lifters are bleeding down when they get hot but the lifters are new?

I think it's time for a compression and leakdown test? It doesn't take much cylnder wear to make noise that is very hard to distinguish from valve train noise. You just might have arrived at that point coincidental with the cam chest work.
djl:

Yes. That is all that has been done in 90K for the most part, other than adding SE High Flow Air Cleaner and Samson Rolled Thunder Slip-ons at 30K. Also added a Power Commander but quickly disconnected it after a occasional engine missing problem exists with it connected but doesn’t exist without it. $300 worth of tuning and returning the PC back to the factory for a check out could not eliminate the problem. Anyway, that’s another subject. Engine is basically stock except what has been mentioned. Change oil every 2500 Miles and have been suing Syn3 since it’s inception. Plugs look great after 10K of use. Doesn’t burn any more oil than the day I got it. Oh yeah! The alternator Quit at 53K.

This “Main Breaker” your talking about, is it the one the negative battery cable connects to in the battery compartment under the seat? It’s the only thing I find in the manual named Circuit Breaker. (See the attached.)

I will check for the sumping as you have described this weekend.

I thought about going back to the old cam plate but then I got to get the cams transfered again get new tensioners (picture of the old one attached), kinda like throwing good money after bad. Besides this new setup should work somehow.
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Screamin Eagle Hydro Cam Plate Probelm-tensioner.jpg  
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File Type: pdf BREAKER.pdf (13.8 KB, 294 views)

Last edited by tracman63; 03-30-2010 at 10:14 AM.. Reason: Added Schematic
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:20 AM
 
 
 
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