103 Upgrade - Screamin Eagle Pro Stage IV kit
#1
10-17-2010, 10:28 AM
103 Upgrade - Screamin Eagle Pro Stage IV kit
Hey Brothers,
I have a 09 Road King with SE Race Tuner, SE Heavy-Breather snorkel intake, and Rinehart true-duel exhaust.
I’ve been looking at engine upgrade possibilities for a few months now. From my research, for what I want to get from the upgrade "overall", I'm now considering the103 Screamin Eagle Pro Stage IV kit from HD (PN- 27517-088). This may not be the absolute best performance upgrade I can do, but it appears to deliver everything I’m looking for and at a great price considering all it includes.
One thing I have not been able to find good feedback on for this kit is around fuel economy. I know that high performance engine mussel and good fuel economy do not go hand-in-hand; however, in my list of objectives, reasonable fuel economy is ranked high in the priorities.
The upgrade I am researching is a good balance of increased power (torque and HP) over what I have now, one that fits my riding style, while not sacrificing too much fuel economy.
Also high in my list of objectives is to mitigate the impact to my factory warranty (I have 7 years extended). I don't want to void my engine warranty for these 6 years I have left.
At my local HD service center (Paradise Harley Davidson), they explained if I use HD parts for my upgrade, I can still get factory warranty for the upgraded parts; however, the credit I would get for a failed upgraded part would be offset to match the cost of the stock part. This sounds fair to me, and much better than the alternative of loosing any chance of warranty for my engine upgrade if I use a third-party shop or parts. For me, any potential performance benefit of using third-party parts or shops is lost when I considered the overall warranty impact.
So this HD 103 SE Pro Stage IV kit looks “good enough”. In fact, it looks very good from a performance perspective. Considerable increase in torque and HP. I really like the torque curve for this kit. The HD specs show the torque curve kicking in early at 2500 RPM’s with a nice long “time under” holding strong through 5500 RPM. Compared to the 255 or 259 CAM’s this looks much better for an all-around riding style with good power for starts as well as highway speeds.
My cost for the kit, which includes a 20% discount from the dealer, plus another $460 credit since I don’t need the SE race tuner (I already have it), means my total cost is ~ $2K for all the parts; SE 110 heads, 103 pistons and jugs, SE 260 cams, high flow throttle body, new injectors, auto-compression releases, new lifters, etc.
Any thoughts and input on this kit would be greatly appreciated, but I’m particularly interested in thoughts on how this kit will affect my fuel mileage. I’m currently averaging between 35 and 40 MPG with my 96 engine. What might I expect the fuel economy to drop to with this stage IV kit?
I have a 09 Road King with SE Race Tuner, SE Heavy-Breather snorkel intake, and Rinehart true-duel exhaust.
I’ve been looking at engine upgrade possibilities for a few months now. From my research, for what I want to get from the upgrade "overall", I'm now considering the103 Screamin Eagle Pro Stage IV kit from HD (PN- 27517-088). This may not be the absolute best performance upgrade I can do, but it appears to deliver everything I’m looking for and at a great price considering all it includes.
One thing I have not been able to find good feedback on for this kit is around fuel economy. I know that high performance engine mussel and good fuel economy do not go hand-in-hand; however, in my list of objectives, reasonable fuel economy is ranked high in the priorities.
The upgrade I am researching is a good balance of increased power (torque and HP) over what I have now, one that fits my riding style, while not sacrificing too much fuel economy.
Also high in my list of objectives is to mitigate the impact to my factory warranty (I have 7 years extended). I don't want to void my engine warranty for these 6 years I have left.
At my local HD service center (Paradise Harley Davidson), they explained if I use HD parts for my upgrade, I can still get factory warranty for the upgraded parts; however, the credit I would get for a failed upgraded part would be offset to match the cost of the stock part. This sounds fair to me, and much better than the alternative of loosing any chance of warranty for my engine upgrade if I use a third-party shop or parts. For me, any potential performance benefit of using third-party parts or shops is lost when I considered the overall warranty impact.
So this HD 103 SE Pro Stage IV kit looks “good enough”. In fact, it looks very good from a performance perspective. Considerable increase in torque and HP. I really like the torque curve for this kit. The HD specs show the torque curve kicking in early at 2500 RPM’s with a nice long “time under” holding strong through 5500 RPM. Compared to the 255 or 259 CAM’s this looks much better for an all-around riding style with good power for starts as well as highway speeds.
My cost for the kit, which includes a 20% discount from the dealer, plus another $460 credit since I don’t need the SE race tuner (I already have it), means my total cost is ~ $2K for all the parts; SE 110 heads, 103 pistons and jugs, SE 260 cams, high flow throttle body, new injectors, auto-compression releases, new lifters, etc.
Any thoughts and input on this kit would be greatly appreciated, but I’m particularly interested in thoughts on how this kit will affect my fuel mileage. I’m currently averaging between 35 and 40 MPG with my 96 engine. What might I expect the fuel economy to drop to with this stage IV kit?
Last edited by FLHRC09; 10-17-2010 at 12:53 PM.
#2
10-18-2010, 07:32 AM
A couple things to consider here. We've good success in our dealership with the Stage 4 kit in the past. You can expect to get 100+ HP and TQ depending on the exhaust you choose. The exhaust choice is always the most critical and deciding factor though. It's a good kit combination if you want to stay with genuine OE stuff. There's a lot of good aftermarket products out there as well as good head porters, that will top the dyno charts, but if you want to stay with something throughly tested and consistent then SE products are hard to beat.
As far a fuel economy goes, it's relevant to the tuning of the bike. Obviously performance and economy don't go hand in hand. If you want the bike to run with the power expected it's going to be using a little more fuel. A competent tuning tech will adjust the a/f to where the bike runs the best. Cruising areas can be leaned to a degree which may help. We tune primarily with with SEST or PC, but the preference is always SEST. Others might differ.
In regards to the warranty of the build whether it's H-D or aftermarket stuff, I'm not sure if or the dealer communicated it totally right. Here is what H-D quotes from the GWM.
Your dealer and most will do this, cover anything that may NOT be covered under the warranty at THEIR dealership, but if you are on the road or take your bike to another dealership for repairs, the repairs may or may not be covered. Also as far as ESP coverage, if your bike does have aftermarket or performance parts installed and something breaks and they choose to send out an inspector to look at the bike. You might also have some issues in voiding the powertrain warranty with ESP. Only "street legal" parts can be registered on the bikes SWR and carry warranty coverage after the 2yr warranty is over. Not trying to scare you, but I explain this to all my customers who are considering motor work. On the flip side, H-D is very good about standing behind their products. When dealers are honest with them about what is done to the engine, they are more likely to work with them and cover things that should be warranty.
Hopefully this sheds some light for you. It's a good build though, I wouldn't be afraid to go with it. I'd talk to your dealer again about the warranty stuff if your still concerned.
As far a fuel economy goes, it's relevant to the tuning of the bike. Obviously performance and economy don't go hand in hand. If you want the bike to run with the power expected it's going to be using a little more fuel. A competent tuning tech will adjust the a/f to where the bike runs the best. Cruising areas can be leaned to a degree which may help. We tune primarily with with SEST or PC, but the preference is always SEST. Others might differ.
In regards to the warranty of the build whether it's H-D or aftermarket stuff, I'm not sure if or the dealer communicated it totally right. Here is what H-D quotes from the GWM.
Screamin' Eagle® Performance Products & Warranty
Harley-Davidson’s current policy is that, unless expressly noted otherwise, installation of Screamin’ Eagle® performance parts (and similar products from other manufactures) may reduce or void the Harley-Davidson Limited Vehicle Warranty.
Warranty implications, as well as suitability for street use, are noted on the caution label on the outside of our product packages and in the Genuine Motor Accessories and Genuine Motor Parts Catalog. Please review this information, and ensure that our customers understand the ramifications of their purchase decisions. This level of understanding should help manage the expectations of the customer and lead to increased levels of satisfaction. Parts identified with one of the following icons may void your customer’s limited warranty, dependent upon the concern.
Go Lights
These Screamin’ Eagle® products are 50-state street legal for sale and use on all vehicles, including those that are pollution controlled.
Stop hand
Harley-Davidson® motorcycles modified with some performance engine parts must not be used on public roads and in some cases may be restricted to closed-course competition. Those performance parts identified with a stop hand symbol are U.S. EPA legal, but are not legal for sale or use in California on pollution-controlled motor vehicles. California guidelines on tampering can also lead to substantial fines and penalties.
Crossed Flags
Harley-Davidson® motorcycles modified with some (Screamin’ Eagle®) performance engine parts must not be used on public roads and in some cases may be restricted to closed-course competition. In this Screamin’ Eagle® section, all engine-related performance parts identified with the crossed flags symbol are intended for racing applications only and are not legal for sale or use in California on pollution-controlled vehicles. Alterations of emission-related components constitute tampering under the U.S. EPA guidelines and can lead to substantial fines and penalties.
Harley-Davidson’s current policy is that, unless expressly noted otherwise, installation of Screamin’ Eagle® performance parts (and similar products from other manufactures) may reduce or void the Harley-Davidson Limited Vehicle Warranty.
Warranty implications, as well as suitability for street use, are noted on the caution label on the outside of our product packages and in the Genuine Motor Accessories and Genuine Motor Parts Catalog. Please review this information, and ensure that our customers understand the ramifications of their purchase decisions. This level of understanding should help manage the expectations of the customer and lead to increased levels of satisfaction. Parts identified with one of the following icons may void your customer’s limited warranty, dependent upon the concern.
Go Lights
These Screamin’ Eagle® products are 50-state street legal for sale and use on all vehicles, including those that are pollution controlled.
Stop hand
Harley-Davidson® motorcycles modified with some performance engine parts must not be used on public roads and in some cases may be restricted to closed-course competition. Those performance parts identified with a stop hand symbol are U.S. EPA legal, but are not legal for sale or use in California on pollution-controlled motor vehicles. California guidelines on tampering can also lead to substantial fines and penalties.
Crossed Flags
Harley-Davidson® motorcycles modified with some (Screamin’ Eagle®) performance engine parts must not be used on public roads and in some cases may be restricted to closed-course competition. In this Screamin’ Eagle® section, all engine-related performance parts identified with the crossed flags symbol are intended for racing applications only and are not legal for sale or use in California on pollution-controlled vehicles. Alterations of emission-related components constitute tampering under the U.S. EPA guidelines and can lead to substantial fines and penalties.
Hopefully this sheds some light for you. It's a good build though, I wouldn't be afraid to go with it. I'd talk to your dealer again about the warranty stuff if your still concerned.
#3
10-18-2010, 08:58 AM
Tourer
Regarding the warranty issue the key words are "unless expressly noted otherwise." I would obtain a written statement from the dealer that details what they are willing to do in a warranty situation. Especially, given that you have the extended warranty.
Now, with regards to the Stage IV build.....I've had mine for a year. The exhaust I chose was the D&D Boss 2 into 1. This combination is a high RPM high horsepower combination. This combination produced 115 hp and 112 tq. But the torque was higher in the curve than I wanted. I do a lot of 2-up riding with my wife.
So, I've been searching for cam combinations that will bring peak torque down in the curve. I've been able to do that, but in doing so, the seat of the pants dyno tells me I lost horsepower as well. I'm doing the cam changes myself which is fun for me. I'm always excited that it runs when starting it for the first time after changing cams. :-)
If you want the best HP and TQ curve for that kit, you need to go with the SE-263E cam in place of the SE-260.
If I were to do it all over again I would not have gone with the HD Stage IV kit. I would have gone with a 107 build from one of the HD performance engine builders, many of whom hang out on this forum. My choice for a cam would have been the TR-662-2 from TMan Performance. I would have had the kit build around that cam and my D&D exhaust.
I've become a big fan of horsepower and want more. I don't want to go to the expense and time of removing the engine to go bigger than 107. And I believe a good 107 build can produce all the horsepower I want and that the rest of the drive train can handle.
Another issue with the HD Stage IV kit is the use of the 58mm throttle body. The 58mm TB does not work "best" for this combination. Instead I would have sent my stock 50mm TB and had it machined and modified. It can be made to be much more efficient and better flowing than the 58mm in the kit.
I know you're wanting a pre-packaged kit. And for a pre-packaged kit, the Stage IV isn't bad....especially at the price you will end up paying for the kit. BTW, this kit isn't a high mileage producer. I'm a firm believer that when it comes to our push rod engines, we can't have it all...horsepower, torque and mileage. You must chose. If you want mileage, stay with the 96. If you want HP and TQ, a good tuner might be able to get you high overall numbers, but you'll never see 40 mpg again.
The best advice I can give you whatever you decide is go have it dyno'd and tell the person doing the dyno what results you are looking for regarding HP, TQ and mileage. By the way, the map you will receive from the dealer is crap for this build. So, get it to the dyno sooner rather than later. After seeing the curves initially generated by the kit with the HD map, the dyno tuner and I both just shook our heads. There's no reason HD can't get a better map for that build. Otherwise, every buyer of that kit needs a quick trip to the dyno to clean things up.
I am by no means an expert on HD engine builds. But I am speaking from a year's experience with this kit. I've change cams three times, exhausts three times and tried three different sets of lifters getting the valve train noise out of it. So, I speak to you from more than just a person who only rides.
Jim
Now, with regards to the Stage IV build.....I've had mine for a year. The exhaust I chose was the D&D Boss 2 into 1. This combination is a high RPM high horsepower combination. This combination produced 115 hp and 112 tq. But the torque was higher in the curve than I wanted. I do a lot of 2-up riding with my wife.
So, I've been searching for cam combinations that will bring peak torque down in the curve. I've been able to do that, but in doing so, the seat of the pants dyno tells me I lost horsepower as well. I'm doing the cam changes myself which is fun for me. I'm always excited that it runs when starting it for the first time after changing cams. :-)
If you want the best HP and TQ curve for that kit, you need to go with the SE-263E cam in place of the SE-260.
If I were to do it all over again I would not have gone with the HD Stage IV kit. I would have gone with a 107 build from one of the HD performance engine builders, many of whom hang out on this forum. My choice for a cam would have been the TR-662-2 from TMan Performance. I would have had the kit build around that cam and my D&D exhaust.
I've become a big fan of horsepower and want more. I don't want to go to the expense and time of removing the engine to go bigger than 107. And I believe a good 107 build can produce all the horsepower I want and that the rest of the drive train can handle.
Another issue with the HD Stage IV kit is the use of the 58mm throttle body. The 58mm TB does not work "best" for this combination. Instead I would have sent my stock 50mm TB and had it machined and modified. It can be made to be much more efficient and better flowing than the 58mm in the kit.
I know you're wanting a pre-packaged kit. And for a pre-packaged kit, the Stage IV isn't bad....especially at the price you will end up paying for the kit. BTW, this kit isn't a high mileage producer. I'm a firm believer that when it comes to our push rod engines, we can't have it all...horsepower, torque and mileage. You must chose. If you want mileage, stay with the 96. If you want HP and TQ, a good tuner might be able to get you high overall numbers, but you'll never see 40 mpg again.
The best advice I can give you whatever you decide is go have it dyno'd and tell the person doing the dyno what results you are looking for regarding HP, TQ and mileage. By the way, the map you will receive from the dealer is crap for this build. So, get it to the dyno sooner rather than later. After seeing the curves initially generated by the kit with the HD map, the dyno tuner and I both just shook our heads. There's no reason HD can't get a better map for that build. Otherwise, every buyer of that kit needs a quick trip to the dyno to clean things up.
I am by no means an expert on HD engine builds. But I am speaking from a year's experience with this kit. I've change cams three times, exhausts three times and tried three different sets of lifters getting the valve train noise out of it. So, I speak to you from more than just a person who only rides.
Jim
Last edited by HardyHarHarley; 10-19-2010 at 07:58 AM.
#4
10-18-2010, 11:33 PM
Tourer
I was checking T Mans Dyno sheets on this cam and all had the torque curve start very early and 100ftbs was achieved around 2300-2700 rpms here is a link to T mans 662 Dyno sheets http://www.tmanperformance.com/662.htm#662-01
I think this will be my cam of choice.
#5
10-19-2010, 08:01 AM
Tourer
#6
10-19-2010, 09:00 AM
Not trying to be sarcastic and this is a real question...
What makes you think these cams will perform the same in this 103 motor with completely different heads cam and pipes? I can tell you they won't.
I can also tell you that you can achieve similar performance from mildly reworked heads and the proper choice of a cam and pipe coupled to a good tune and save a lot of money.
What makes you think these cams will perform the same in this 103 motor with completely different heads cam and pipes? I can tell you they won't.
I can also tell you that you can achieve similar performance from mildly reworked heads and the proper choice of a cam and pipe coupled to a good tune and save a lot of money.
#7
10-19-2010, 05:18 PM
Tourer
Not trying to be sarcastic and this is a real question...
What makes you think these cams will perform the same in this 103 motor with completely different heads cam and pipes? I can tell you they won't.
I can also tell you that you can achieve similar performance from mildly reworked heads and the proper choice of a cam and pipe coupled to a good tune and save a lot of money.
What makes you think these cams will perform the same in this 103 motor with completely different heads cam and pipes? I can tell you they won't.
I can also tell you that you can achieve similar performance from mildly reworked heads and the proper choice of a cam and pipe coupled to a good tune and save a lot of money.
110 Heads 200.00 brand new still in box off Ebay
Pocket port and smoothing of the intake runners 100.00
Bronze guides and valve job and motor mount cut into front head 250.00
103 SE Pistons for the 110 cvo head 223.00
96 jugs for 103 over bore 50.00 Craigs list
Cylinder bore job 125.00
T-Man Cam 345.00
Bore & Port TB to 52mm 200.00
Adj Push Rods 100.00
SE Race Tuner 367.00
Total 1,960.00 Running going down the road
I will still need headers and I will probably go with D&D Fat CAT 2-1 750.00
Look at the total this is a very budget minded build and will set me up for when I decide to crack the case and run a 124" The heads will be there, the cam. This build is just the 1st step and some of the parts will be used for future builds.
Jim
Last edited by BadBagger08; 10-19-2010 at 05:33 PM.
Trending Topics
#8
10-20-2010, 09:40 AM
HD has all kind of heads and all kind of pistones for these heads.
They can fit each other all kind of ways as far as final compression goes.
Be careful about mixing and matching.
Throw in bigger bore and need more calculating.
Head work sometime starts with a milling job.
You can, without meaning to, get anywhere from 8-1 compression or 12-1 if not careful.
Do your homework here.
My experience is a "Salesperson" selling anything is not the person to get advice from. They will tell you anything.
Need a Wrench.
They can fit each other all kind of ways as far as final compression goes.
Be careful about mixing and matching.
Throw in bigger bore and need more calculating.
Head work sometime starts with a milling job.
You can, without meaning to, get anywhere from 8-1 compression or 12-1 if not careful.
Do your homework here.
My experience is a "Salesperson" selling anything is not the person to get advice from. They will tell you anything.
Need a Wrench.
Last edited by Old Gunny; 10-20-2010 at 09:42 AM.
#9
10-20-2010, 11:12 AM
Tourer
HD has all kind of heads and all kind of pistones for these heads.
They can fit each other all kind of ways as far as final compression goes.
Be careful about mixing and matching.
Throw in bigger bore and need more calculating.
Head work sometime starts with a milling job.
You can, without meaning to, get anywhere from 8-1 compression or 12-1 if not careful.
Do your homework here.
My experience is a "Salesperson" selling anything is not the person to get advice from. They will tell you anything.
Need a Wrench.
They can fit each other all kind of ways as far as final compression goes.
Be careful about mixing and matching.
Throw in bigger bore and need more calculating.
Head work sometime starts with a milling job.
You can, without meaning to, get anywhere from 8-1 compression or 12-1 if not careful.
Do your homework here.
My experience is a "Salesperson" selling anything is not the person to get advice from. They will tell you anything.
Need a Wrench.
There is only 3 pistons sets from HD for this set up Flat Top, 10.5:1 and a 11:1
I have a wrench and his name is Kirby Apathy maybe a few of you in this forum might know of him and unlike all you other builders on here HD Forums, Kirby is helping make this budget build come together and run at its best. He even viewed the pictures of some of the used 110 heads that I was looking at on Ebay to approve of the buy before I even bid on the heads. Doesn't sound like the other Indys would take the this extra step and devote their time and do this for me as they have nothing but negative to say about this build. I know I have chosen the right Indy for me, thanx for confirming this. (I'm sure the they are good builders just not the ones 4 me)
Unlike the the other 2 mentioned Wrenches that have nothing but negative to say about the 103+110 head he understands that there will be a much bigger (124") plans down the road.
The 103+110 head is very appealing to a lot of Peeps cause of all the recalled heads on Ebay (200.00) some head work, porting, guides, valve job, seals, springs and you have the head that Harley should have released for much less than the new ones cost from HD. add another 175.00 for used jugs and the 103 over bore, Pistons 225.00 a used cam if you like for 150.00 and you have very cheap and reasonable priced 103" 100 hp build
If your looking at putting the 103+110 heads together maybe you should be looking to contact VEE-Twin Performance and Kirby he will guide you down the right path.
Jim
Last edited by BadBagger08; 10-20-2010 at 11:40 AM.
#10
10-20-2010, 11:58 AM
I have no issue with the heads but IMHO and IME they are right at home on a 117" + motor and the stock castings reworked are better suited to most smaller motors. They are plentiful too and not expensive to rework.
HD had to use the SE255 a puny cam to get any low speed torque out of those heads even with high compression on the 110" motor. The SE CVO 110 cranks at215psi
HD had to use the SE255 a puny cam to get any low speed torque out of those heads even with high compression on the 110" motor. The SE CVO 110 cranks at215psi