MSF Beginning Rider Course
#21
03-28-2007, 11:28 AM
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RE: MSF Beginning Rider Course
ORIGINAL: grooveman
Not to hijack the thread but I have been thinking about whether or not I should take the basic course and could use some input on this.. I too rode a lot when I was younger and let my endorsement slide one year when I renewed. But that was 30 years ago and mostly on under 350cc motorcycles.
Now that I have the Ultra I have managed to ride it at every opportunity, albiet illegaly on my MC learners permit (supposed to have another rider in view).. But I feel fairly comfortable on it even though I could use some work on the low speed manuevering.
So I guess my question would be, should I do the same thing and take the basic riders course on a smaller bike, or would there be more benefit to taking the experienced riders course on my own bike? Thanks
Not to hijack the thread but I have been thinking about whether or not I should take the basic course and could use some input on this.. I too rode a lot when I was younger and let my endorsement slide one year when I renewed. But that was 30 years ago and mostly on under 350cc motorcycles.
Now that I have the Ultra I have managed to ride it at every opportunity, albiet illegaly on my MC learners permit (supposed to have another rider in view).. But I feel fairly comfortable on it even though I could use some work on the low speed manuevering.
So I guess my question would be, should I do the same thing and take the basic riders course on a smaller bike, or would there be more benefit to taking the experienced riders course on my own bike? Thanks
The most notable was an oval where we were supposed to (in second gear)breakbefore a turn - accelerate though the turn and down the straight away and break before the next turn... with all 12 of us running around the oval at the same time. Absolutely impossible to do correctly - it only takes 1 person to go WAY to slow and it screws the rest of the class. Then the instructors would call you out for not breaking before the turn... WTF, I wasn't going fast enough to break I'd have had to downshift and stop. It would have helped if they'd have pulled those who weren't going fast enough to do the drill correctly and instructed them off to the side. Flapping their arms in the speed up signal didn't help a bit.
#22
03-28-2007, 11:29 AM
Madame Moderator
RE: MSF Beginning Rider Course
I took the course back on 12/15/06 and as a beginner who had only ridden dirt bikes back in my teens, it was exactly what I needed. Remember, it's a "beginners" course and you only have to pass the "basic" manuevers. It's $100 less than Harley's Riders Edge Course and may indeed be less comprehensive. To me, it was more an introduction conveying basic safety skills to get you started afterwhich you need to go out and obtain practical experience.
Now in GA, you could have just gone down to the DMV and taken the MC test and would have had your GA M class license upon passing. You don't have to take the MSF course as this is the route my husband has chosen to go.
Also, in GA, it was not an option for me to take my bike to learn how to ride on as I did ask. They do provide helmets. I did like learning on someone else's bike and so wasn't worried about dropping the bike since it wasn't mine. Fortunately, I didn't drop the bike during the course.
Now in GA, you could have just gone down to the DMV and taken the MC test and would have had your GA M class license upon passing. You don't have to take the MSF course as this is the route my husband has chosen to go.
Also, in GA, it was not an option for me to take my bike to learn how to ride on as I did ask. They do provide helmets. I did like learning on someone else's bike and so wasn't worried about dropping the bike since it wasn't mine. Fortunately, I didn't drop the bike during the course.
#23
03-28-2007, 06:23 PM
Outstanding HDF Member
RE: MSF Beginning Rider Course
I go to my first class tonight at 6. Then the next 2 days from 8-5. Gonna be cold too. In the 40's. Ill let ya know how it goes. Who the heck is going to do a lot of figure 8's on the road anyway?
#24
03-28-2007, 06:27 PM
Madame Moderator
RE: MSF Beginning Rider Course
ORIGINAL: drrandall1
Who the heck is going to do a lot of figure 8's on the road anyway?
Who the heck is going to do a lot of figure 8's on the road anyway?
#26
03-28-2007, 06:45 PM
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RE: MSF Beginning Rider Course
ORIGINAL: GADave
OK - So I've been riding illegally for the past few years in Georgia. I'm 45 and got my motorcycle endorsement when I turned 16 in my native Maryland. Rode tons of miles on the highways but, 11 years ago when I moved to Georgia they didn't transfer my motorcycle endorsement. Sold my Fatboy when I left MD and didn't have a scoot here in GA until about 4 years ago. Kept meaning to go get my endorsement but, for whatever reason(s), never did. Decided to go take the MSF course at recommendations of others here and buds I ride with.
Last Friday Night 6-10pm. Saturday 8am-6pm. Sunday 8am-6pm...
What a waste of time. Only thing I learned was that I don't downshift in an emergency stop situation... and I feel logically there are still some arguments against their reasoning (gets you in getaway gear should someone be about to slam you in the azz you can take off). Argument would be - concentrate on stopping the bike safely not jammin' gears. That is what it is - whatever.
All 12 peoplein our class passed. Some should not have IMO - it scares me that they're out there on road the way they were riding those little 250s. White knuckled - scared to death - and completely incapable of doing a figure 8 in the box no matter how many times they tried. If ya can't run a 250cc scoot through a turn at 8 mph without hitting the cones, ya shouldn't be out there on a 1K+cc bike at road speeds.
I did learn some new acronyms and fancy names for the stuff I've been doing for years. "Friction zone" is evidently the motorcycling for dummies name forridin' the clutch. T-Clocs means "Know enough about your bike to keep it road worthy". and SEE means look where you're going and pay attention you knucklehead. MOM is "Motorcycle Owners Manual"... ask Mom... how cute.
It seems my take on this course is WAY in the minority... everyone had told me that even if you're experienced it's WELL worth the money and time. I even heard "You owe it to yourself". Anyways, with 30 years of riding experience and being a pretty common sense thinker, I feel it was a complete waste of time and can't point to anyuseful new thingI learned. But I was able to sit in the HOT GA sun all day Saturday and Sunday and BAKE in a long sleve shirt, gloves & helmet while not being able to take my hands off the grips even to wipe the sweat off my neck, that was fun. I kept getting yelled at for putting the bike in neutral and kickin' back with my hands off the grips while I sat for 20 minutes at a time on an idling bike - I wasn't in control - please... I was trying to survive. So, I started turning off the bike and dismounting - that was received even worse. SIGH - Hope it gets me a decent discount on my insurance.
Dave
OK - So I've been riding illegally for the past few years in Georgia. I'm 45 and got my motorcycle endorsement when I turned 16 in my native Maryland. Rode tons of miles on the highways but, 11 years ago when I moved to Georgia they didn't transfer my motorcycle endorsement. Sold my Fatboy when I left MD and didn't have a scoot here in GA until about 4 years ago. Kept meaning to go get my endorsement but, for whatever reason(s), never did. Decided to go take the MSF course at recommendations of others here and buds I ride with.
Last Friday Night 6-10pm. Saturday 8am-6pm. Sunday 8am-6pm...
What a waste of time. Only thing I learned was that I don't downshift in an emergency stop situation... and I feel logically there are still some arguments against their reasoning (gets you in getaway gear should someone be about to slam you in the azz you can take off). Argument would be - concentrate on stopping the bike safely not jammin' gears. That is what it is - whatever.
All 12 peoplein our class passed. Some should not have IMO - it scares me that they're out there on road the way they were riding those little 250s. White knuckled - scared to death - and completely incapable of doing a figure 8 in the box no matter how many times they tried. If ya can't run a 250cc scoot through a turn at 8 mph without hitting the cones, ya shouldn't be out there on a 1K+cc bike at road speeds.
I did learn some new acronyms and fancy names for the stuff I've been doing for years. "Friction zone" is evidently the motorcycling for dummies name forridin' the clutch. T-Clocs means "Know enough about your bike to keep it road worthy". and SEE means look where you're going and pay attention you knucklehead. MOM is "Motorcycle Owners Manual"... ask Mom... how cute.
It seems my take on this course is WAY in the minority... everyone had told me that even if you're experienced it's WELL worth the money and time. I even heard "You owe it to yourself". Anyways, with 30 years of riding experience and being a pretty common sense thinker, I feel it was a complete waste of time and can't point to anyuseful new thingI learned. But I was able to sit in the HOT GA sun all day Saturday and Sunday and BAKE in a long sleve shirt, gloves & helmet while not being able to take my hands off the grips even to wipe the sweat off my neck, that was fun. I kept getting yelled at for putting the bike in neutral and kickin' back with my hands off the grips while I sat for 20 minutes at a time on an idling bike - I wasn't in control - please... I was trying to survive. So, I started turning off the bike and dismounting - that was received even worse. SIGH - Hope it gets me a decent discount on my insurance.
Dave
I feel your pain.
While waiting on a buddys bike to come out of service at the local dealership recently, we set on a concrete divider for quite some time, watching the BRC being taught in the back parking lot.
I knew right then that that was not something I wanted to subject myself too. After 18 years of riding including 12 on heavy street bikes, I don't think I need someone barking at me to speed up, or brake.
I may take the experienced course though. I think that would be of value, but for an experienced rider, the basic was just, well, a bit too basic.
#27
03-28-2007, 09:00 PM
RE: MSF Beginning Rider Course
ORIGINAL: GADave
Problem is, I don't know if the MSF allows someone to take the ERC if you've never taken the BRC? Do they?
Problem is, I don't know if the MSF allows someone to take the ERC if you've never taken the BRC? Do they?
The beginning course really got boring and frustrating at times... how can you brake into a turn if you're only going 3 mph to start with? There were a few exercises where we were supposed to run around a course in 2nd gear - I kept complaining to the instructors that I couldn't keep it in second gear because I was bogging the motor because others were going so slow. They made a feeble attempt to speed folks up saying "speed is your friend" and "it's a lot easier to do this if you've got some speed"... but it didn't work.
The most notable was an oval where we were supposed to (in second gear)breakbefore a turn - accelerate though the turn and down the straight away and break before the next turn... with all 12 of us running around the oval at the same time. Absolutely impossible to do correctly - it only takes 1 person to go WAY to slow and it screws the rest of the class. Then the instructors would call you out for not breaking before the turn... WTF, I wasn't going fast enough to break I'd have had to downshift and stop. It would have helped if they'd have pulled those who weren't going fast enough to do the drill correctly and instructed them off to the side. Flapping their arms in the speed up signal didn't help a bit.
The most notable was an oval where we were supposed to (in second gear)breakbefore a turn - accelerate though the turn and down the straight away and break before the next turn... with all 12 of us running around the oval at the same time. Absolutely impossible to do correctly - it only takes 1 person to go WAY to slow and it screws the rest of the class. Then the instructors would call you out for not breaking before the turn... WTF, I wasn't going fast enough to break I'd have had to downshift and stop. It would have helped if they'd have pulled those who weren't going fast enough to do the drill correctly and instructed them off to the side. Flapping their arms in the speed up signal didn't help a bit.
BRC Exercise 7 (the oval) is a REPEATED SPLIT. That means that half the class rides --- while the other half observes from the parking area while the Rider Coach with them notes the evaluation points (i.e., head & eyes up, use the Slow, Look, Press, Roll technique in cornering, etc.)
Most of the coaching for this exercise should be done in the parking area because both groups get to watch twice and ride twice. The coach on the range (with no more than six students)
should do very little coaching - and no yelling!
JMHO
#28
03-29-2007, 12:08 AM
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RE: MSF Beginning Rider Course
ORIGINAL: Snobal
Sounds like your instructors need a little retraining.
BRC Exercise 7 (the oval) is a REPEATED SPLIT. That means that half the class rides --- while the other half observes from the parking area while the Rider Coach with them notes the evaluation points (i.e., head & eyes up, use the Slow, Look, Press, Roll technique in cornering, etc.)
Most of the coaching for this exercise should be done in the parking area because both groups get to watch twice and ride twice. The coach on the range (with no more than six students)
should do very little coaching - and no yelling!
JMHO
The beginning course really got boring and frustrating at times... how can you brake into a turn if you're only going 3 mph to start with? There were a few exercises where we were supposed to run around a course in 2nd gear - I kept complaining to the instructors that I couldn't keep it in second gear because I was bogging the motor because others were going so slow. They made a feeble attempt to speed folks up saying "speed is your friend" and "it's a lot easier to do this if you've got some speed"... but it didn't work.
The most notable was an oval where we were supposed to (in second gear)breakbefore a turn - accelerate though the turn and down the straight away and break before the next turn... with all 12 of us running around the oval at the same time. Absolutely impossible to do correctly - it only takes 1 person to go WAY to slow and it screws the rest of the class. Then the instructors would call you out for not breaking before the turn... WTF, I wasn't going fast enough to break I'd have had to downshift and stop. It would have helped if they'd have pulled those who weren't going fast enough to do the drill correctly and instructed them off to the side. Flapping their arms in the speed up signal didn't help a bit.
The most notable was an oval where we were supposed to (in second gear)breakbefore a turn - accelerate though the turn and down the straight away and break before the next turn... with all 12 of us running around the oval at the same time. Absolutely impossible to do correctly - it only takes 1 person to go WAY to slow and it screws the rest of the class. Then the instructors would call you out for not breaking before the turn... WTF, I wasn't going fast enough to break I'd have had to downshift and stop. It would have helped if they'd have pulled those who weren't going fast enough to do the drill correctly and instructed them off to the side. Flapping their arms in the speed up signal didn't help a bit.
BRC Exercise 7 (the oval) is a REPEATED SPLIT. That means that half the class rides --- while the other half observes from the parking area while the Rider Coach with them notes the evaluation points (i.e., head & eyes up, use the Slow, Look, Press, Roll technique in cornering, etc.)
Most of the coaching for this exercise should be done in the parking area because both groups get to watch twice and ride twice. The coach on the range (with no more than six students)
should do very little coaching - and no yelling!
JMHO
Obviously you're an instructor - why don't they make people speed up? How can you possibly brake correctly at the end of a straightaway if you're already going at the bogging speed of the instructed gear (2nd), as I recall we were also told not to shift during that exercise. It could be a fun drill - running an oval always is. Those bikes would go 30mph in 2nd. I was on aHonda nighthawk 250.
Also - if you're going that slow when you reach the braking point at the end of the straight away - obviously you weren't "rolling on" the throttle through the turn and into the straight as instructed. This is just 1 drill, slow riders made all the drillsthat we did as a group hard todo correctly. Also, it wasn'tdoing them any favors as far as teaching them how to ride a bike, a little speed makes practically ALL the maneuvers easier... even the dreaded figure 8...uhhh, I mean double U turn.
Dave
#29
03-29-2007, 01:23 AM
RE: MSF Beginning Rider Course
Nah Snobal - Instructors don't need retraining. We did it that way (6 at a time) as I recall now. It just seemed like there were 12 people out there going around that oval. Still couldn't do it properly with everyone going so slow.
Obviously you're an instructor - why don't they make people speed up? How can you possibly brake correctly at the end of a straightaway if you're already going at the bogging speed of the instructed gear (2nd), as I recall we were also told not to shift during that exercise. It could be a fun drill - running an oval always is. Those bikes would go 30mph in 2nd. I was on aHonda nighthawk 250.
Also - if you're going that slow when you reach the braking point at the end of the straight away - obviously you weren't "rolling on" the throttle through the turn and into the straight as instructed. This is just 1 drill, slow riders made all the drillsthat we did as a group hard todo correctly. Also, it wasn'tdoing them any favors as far as teaching them how to ride a bike, a little speed makes practically ALL the maneuvers easier... even the dreaded figure 8...uhhh, I mean double U turn.
Dave
Some classes are "fast," someare "slow." Each class is unique.The more experience a person has teaching the BRC, the better they get at working with the timid riders in each class.
You may find the ERC much more enjoyable since you do it on your own bike, and the other people in the class are "experienced" riders too.
For example, ERC Exercise 9 is called "Multiple Curves" and has four turns per lap with various radii..We don't call it a race track --- but a rose by any other name........
Groups for this exercise can be no more than 3 riders. It is a Hoot! I've had several classes where the three-rider groupsare gaving so much fun,they beg to do it again. If time permits, I decide they "did not meet the objective," and makethem run it again to demonstrate the proper techniques.
I also let the riders pick their own groups - if theywant to - so that riders that want to work on their skills in negotiating curves can do so without being held up byless aggressive riders.
I would not claim that everyone "learns something" at an ERC --- but, everyone gets to practice things that we don't normally practice.
When the class is over, most folks discover that their bike has become almost "weightless." After a day of quick stops, turning, swerving, and tight turns, people become so relaxed about leaning their 800 lb. road sofas, they catch themselves leaning the bike far more than usual -and really enjoyingcurves and turning.
While I enjoy teaching BRC's and watching people learn to ride, working with the ERC students is pure fun! I love those ERC classes the riders seem to lovethem too.
JMHO
#30
03-29-2007, 01:46 AM
RE: MSF Beginning Rider Course
Well GADAVE I'm sorry you did not learn any thing from the MSF. Why did you waste your time and money in the first place? As an expert rider why not just go down the DMV an walk up to the counter and take the driving test? If you are rider enough to pass it you walk away with a permit in 30-45 minutes not 3 days of sittin a top a hot bike. That you paid to do. Did you not know there would be rider time or waiting time so others could learn as well.
I been riding 30 plus years and took the class with my son a few months back. he grew up on a dirt bike and 4 wheelers I wanted a "pro" not a dad to give him a different lecture before I turn him out on a bike. I learned a few things in the class, sure there was dead time. But I contributed to the "young" riders myself during break time. Several would come my way and ask questions.
I guess I had an open attitude. I enjoyed it and would recommend it to anyone. Maybe you need to go into teaching others to ride. Maybe you need to teach MSF!
Dog
I been riding 30 plus years and took the class with my son a few months back. he grew up on a dirt bike and 4 wheelers I wanted a "pro" not a dad to give him a different lecture before I turn him out on a bike. I learned a few things in the class, sure there was dead time. But I contributed to the "young" riders myself during break time. Several would come my way and ask questions.
I guess I had an open attitude. I enjoyed it and would recommend it to anyone. Maybe you need to go into teaching others to ride. Maybe you need to teach MSF!
Dog