Power Vision Tuning Control Question
#21
12-09-2016, 12:18 AM
Probably what i shoulda done in the first place Clay. I had my heads done there and I talked to Ray about a dyno tune when I was considering going 98 inches. I figured keeping the thing at 88 inches and doing really mild cams and a canned tune would do it, and keep the spend down. I'm not looking to extract the last ounce of performance out of the thing. I just want it reliable and with reasonable fuel mileage.
I absolutely do not wanna spend an entire winter figuring this thing out. And I don't wanna buy a dang windows laptop just to do this.
But, I suppose I'm making this harder than it needs to be just because of my own stubbornness. Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated
I absolutely do not wanna spend an entire winter figuring this thing out. And I don't wanna buy a dang windows laptop just to do this.
But, I suppose I'm making this harder than it needs to be just because of my own stubbornness. Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated
#22
12-09-2016, 06:43 AM
I hear ya. I tend to overthink things a bit myself.
I also agree about the goal not being to squeeze every bit of power out of it. When I have this conversation with friends what I talk about is wanting to get every bit of results that you've already paid for in the bits and pieces and work you've already done.
As you know, the number of inexperienced members here who spend a grand on air cleaner and new exhaust system, and then don't want to spend another dollar on a tune, is just a head-scratcher.
One of the things that Chris does with his dyno tunes for "normal" riders is to maximize cruising mpg. With the hp and tq numbers I'm making with mine, the passing power is just grin-inducing, and I'm getting a solid 40-41 mpg on the road, which is pretty much exactly what I was getting stock.
I'm a happy camper.
I also agree about the goal not being to squeeze every bit of power out of it. When I have this conversation with friends what I talk about is wanting to get every bit of results that you've already paid for in the bits and pieces and work you've already done.
As you know, the number of inexperienced members here who spend a grand on air cleaner and new exhaust system, and then don't want to spend another dollar on a tune, is just a head-scratcher.
One of the things that Chris does with his dyno tunes for "normal" riders is to maximize cruising mpg. With the hp and tq numbers I'm making with mine, the passing power is just grin-inducing, and I'm getting a solid 40-41 mpg on the road, which is pretty much exactly what I was getting stock.
I'm a happy camper.
#23
12-09-2016, 07:40 AM
#24
12-09-2016, 07:44 AM
#25
12-09-2016, 07:56 AM
Thanks for the input guys. Perhaps a little background is in order. My wrenching resume is extensive, but I have virtually no EFI experience.
I am a die hard DIYer. I've been drag racing for 40 years with various machines, and currently campaign a air cooled VW that makes upwards of 500hp out of a 135ci engine. However, all of these have been either carb'd or mechanically injected. The VW is turbocharged with mechanical injection running on methanol. I have built the entire intake and exhaust systems from raw materials, and even the chassis and suspension systems are my design and manufacture.
I have intentionally stayed away from EFI systems for competition because I fully understand carbs and MFI. I've just never wanted to mess with EFI. However, both my motorcycles have it and I'd convert 'em both to carbs if it weren't so costly. Besides, I've never had an issue with any of my daily driver vehicles with EFI....ever. I reckon the hope was that the stock systems on these bikes would be the same. But as it is said, "hope in one and and something else in the other."
But, when it comes to modifications, I do my homework. I hate spending money unnecessarily. But if an expenditure seems like a valid thing, I try to buy quality. That homework resulted in installing the gear drive cams (S&S 509 cams and the elimination of the cam chain tensioners) and the decision to buy the PV tuner.
More homework last night and this morning brought the following service bulletin regarding 2006 Big Twins, and it's got my symptoms all over it. There was a lot of discussion on various forums about the same issue I have experienced, but aside from throwing parts and money to no avail, no real answers until I found this service bulletin and results from those affected.
Now Jamie did tell me that 2006 had some "one year only" variables and this TOTALLY makes sense to me in regards to that. But again, I may be way off base. What I need to do is find out if my bike has the affected injectors.
As such, it seems I need to try switching from the 8 degree injectors, if indeed that is what my bike has, to the 25 degree injectors before proceeding with trying to tune those symptoms out. Maybe then, a decent map can be produced that will bring the joy back to riding.
So, does this make sense to you guys? Or do you think I'm pissing into the wind?
FUEL INJECTOR/CALIBRATION CHANGES FOR 2006 1450cc BIG TWINS
It has recently been determined that the 8 degree angle cone spray
fuel injectors used on 2006 1450cc Big Twins may cause cold start and/or driveability problems on some motorcycles.
In the interest of promoting customer satisfaction, the 25 degree angle cone spray fuel injectors used on CVO 103 cu. in. (1690cc) motors will be installed on all production Big Twins beginning on or around February 13, 2006.
Additionally, Harley-Davidson will provide for the installation of 25 degree angle cone spray fuel injectors on those motorcycles where use of the 8 degree fuel injectors (part number 27625-06) is determined to be directly responsible for cold start and/or driveability problems. See REQUIRED DEALER ACTION.
Due to changes in the manufacturing process, the part number of the 25 degree angle cone spray fuel injector is changing from 27709-06 to 27709-06A. This fuel injector also will be stamped with the words 25 DEG for easy identification. See
Motorcycles Affected
Only 2006 1450cc Big Twin model motorcycles that exhibit cold start and/or driveability problems directly related to use of angle cone spray fuel injectors (including those subsequently equipped with Screamin Eagle 1450cc or 1550cc Performance Kits).
Required Dealer Action
1. Adhere to the flow chart in Figure 2 when handling customer complaints regarding cold start and/or driveability problems on affected motorcycles.
2. If the flow chart indicates that the fuel injectors are the source of the problem, check the part numbers stamped on the fuel injectors. While standing on the left side of the motorcycle, the part number on the rear fuel injector can be easily read with the aid of a flashlight.
I am a die hard DIYer. I've been drag racing for 40 years with various machines, and currently campaign a air cooled VW that makes upwards of 500hp out of a 135ci engine. However, all of these have been either carb'd or mechanically injected. The VW is turbocharged with mechanical injection running on methanol. I have built the entire intake and exhaust systems from raw materials, and even the chassis and suspension systems are my design and manufacture.
I have intentionally stayed away from EFI systems for competition because I fully understand carbs and MFI. I've just never wanted to mess with EFI. However, both my motorcycles have it and I'd convert 'em both to carbs if it weren't so costly. Besides, I've never had an issue with any of my daily driver vehicles with EFI....ever. I reckon the hope was that the stock systems on these bikes would be the same. But as it is said, "hope in one and and something else in the other."
But, when it comes to modifications, I do my homework. I hate spending money unnecessarily. But if an expenditure seems like a valid thing, I try to buy quality. That homework resulted in installing the gear drive cams (S&S 509 cams and the elimination of the cam chain tensioners) and the decision to buy the PV tuner.
More homework last night and this morning brought the following service bulletin regarding 2006 Big Twins, and it's got my symptoms all over it. There was a lot of discussion on various forums about the same issue I have experienced, but aside from throwing parts and money to no avail, no real answers until I found this service bulletin and results from those affected.
Now Jamie did tell me that 2006 had some "one year only" variables and this TOTALLY makes sense to me in regards to that. But again, I may be way off base. What I need to do is find out if my bike has the affected injectors.
As such, it seems I need to try switching from the 8 degree injectors, if indeed that is what my bike has, to the 25 degree injectors before proceeding with trying to tune those symptoms out. Maybe then, a decent map can be produced that will bring the joy back to riding.
So, does this make sense to you guys? Or do you think I'm pissing into the wind?
FUEL INJECTOR/CALIBRATION CHANGES FOR 2006 1450cc BIG TWINS
It has recently been determined that the 8 degree angle cone spray
fuel injectors used on 2006 1450cc Big Twins may cause cold start and/or driveability problems on some motorcycles.
In the interest of promoting customer satisfaction, the 25 degree angle cone spray fuel injectors used on CVO 103 cu. in. (1690cc) motors will be installed on all production Big Twins beginning on or around February 13, 2006.
Additionally, Harley-Davidson will provide for the installation of 25 degree angle cone spray fuel injectors on those motorcycles where use of the 8 degree fuel injectors (part number 27625-06) is determined to be directly responsible for cold start and/or driveability problems. See REQUIRED DEALER ACTION.
Due to changes in the manufacturing process, the part number of the 25 degree angle cone spray fuel injector is changing from 27709-06 to 27709-06A. This fuel injector also will be stamped with the words 25 DEG for easy identification. See
Motorcycles Affected
Only 2006 1450cc Big Twin model motorcycles that exhibit cold start and/or driveability problems directly related to use of angle cone spray fuel injectors (including those subsequently equipped with Screamin Eagle 1450cc or 1550cc Performance Kits).
Required Dealer Action
1. Adhere to the flow chart in Figure 2 when handling customer complaints regarding cold start and/or driveability problems on affected motorcycles.
2. If the flow chart indicates that the fuel injectors are the source of the problem, check the part numbers stamped on the fuel injectors. While standing on the left side of the motorcycle, the part number on the rear fuel injector can be easily read with the aid of a flashlight.
Go to the TTS/Mastertune websiteand download and install the Mastertune Manuals (PDF's):
http://www.mastertune.net/downloads_applications.php
Go to Appendix A O2 Conversion Parts List and Diagram. The instructions for the conversion are listed there. Your 2006 ECM will support O2 sensors with closed loop calibration. I've been going to do this for a while...still haven't gotten to it as I found a different work around.
I had a similar problem with my 2005 FLSTNi. Had big problems when I went to a PV after a cam swap. Spent many hours manually tuning to support the new configuration and eventually managed to get the bike running decently...but still wasn't 100%.
A fellow forum member who lived close by sold me his used PV wide band conversion set-up for a very reasonable price and I was able to get it dialed in with that set-up.
It's also possible that Fuel Moto sent a level 176 closed loop calibration for your bike and it's not working without the sensors. Ask Jamie/ Fuel Moto about it.
If you think you have a problem with one of your injectors, there was a problem with broken injector wires a while back. The harness was wrapped too tight with ty-wraps causing broken or intermittent injector wires. The break was difficult to diagnose as it often broke inside the insulation and wasn't visible. Try moving the wires around or using a DVM to diagnose.
Good Luck!!
Last edited by nhrider1; 12-09-2016 at 08:03 AM. Reason: Added injector wire issue
#26
12-09-2016, 08:17 AM
Stellar HDF Member
Actually, there is a workaround to add the O2 sensors to your bike at minimal cost. If you don't mind getting into the wiring harness, it shouldn't be difficult for a man with your resume.
Go to the TTS/Mastertune websiteand download and install the Mastertune Manuals (PDF's):
http://www.mastertune.net/downloads_applications.php
Go to Appendix A O2 Conversion Parts List and Diagram. The instructions for the conversion are listed there. Your 2006 ECM will support O2 sensors with closed loop calibration. I've been going to do this for a while...still haven't gotten to it as I found a different work around.
Go to the TTS/Mastertune websiteand download and install the Mastertune Manuals (PDF's):
http://www.mastertune.net/downloads_applications.php
Go to Appendix A O2 Conversion Parts List and Diagram. The instructions for the conversion are listed there. Your 2006 ECM will support O2 sensors with closed loop calibration. I've been going to do this for a while...still haven't gotten to it as I found a different work around.
Personally - assuming nothing else is wrong with the machine - I would do a couple of Autotuning sessions. If he's starts out with the right tune (AFR/Spark tabels etc.) for his setup then he should be able to get it dialed in relatively quick with a couple of Autotune sessions. Doing the Autotune only cost you time vs. the expense of having it put on a dyno. And again, you'll end up being setup to run full time closed loop.
Interesting though... So '06s had no O2 sensors to begin with making them run fully open loop?
#27
12-09-2016, 08:31 AM
Thanks nhrider. That's some good info. Years ago when the drag car was still running on gasoline, I was using a stand alone gizmo called an "LM 1". It was an O2 reader that did live data logs. I sold it once I put the car on methanol. It was pretty useless with that since AFR is typically in the 4-1 range. I just tuned by ET slip.
But, like I mentioned before, I'm gonna chew on this for a bit. It runs OK with the PC3 back on board, although a touch lean. The low speed/light throttle miss is still there, but not too bad. just annoying for someone like myself with obsessive tendancies.
I'm gonna add a couple percentage points to the entire range so it don't run too hot while I decide which way I wanna go. After all, the drag car needs attention before the race season starts and it requires my time...and money right now. The bike is supposed to be for relaxin'.
But, like I mentioned before, I'm gonna chew on this for a bit. It runs OK with the PC3 back on board, although a touch lean. The low speed/light throttle miss is still there, but not too bad. just annoying for someone like myself with obsessive tendancies.
I'm gonna add a couple percentage points to the entire range so it don't run too hot while I decide which way I wanna go. After all, the drag car needs attention before the race season starts and it requires my time...and money right now. The bike is supposed to be for relaxin'.
#28
12-09-2016, 08:50 AM
If O2 sensors can be added to his ECM, then I would keep the PV (since he already has it) and get the Target Tune with widebands. No matter if he does Autotuning himself or goes and has it dyno'ed, the PV will come in useful and Target Tune will enable him to run full time closed loop from here on out after the tuning is done.
Personally - assuming nothing else is wrong with the machine - I would do a couple of Autotuning sessions. If he's starts out with the right tune (AFR/Spark tabels etc.) for his setup then he should be able to get it dialed in relatively quick with a couple of Autotune sessions. Doing the Autotune only cost you time vs. the expense of having it put on a dyno. And again, you'll end up being setup to run full time closed loop.
Interesting though... So '06s had no O2 sensors to begin with making them run fully open loop?
Personally - assuming nothing else is wrong with the machine - I would do a couple of Autotuning sessions. If he's starts out with the right tune (AFR/Spark tabels etc.) for his setup then he should be able to get it dialed in relatively quick with a couple of Autotune sessions. Doing the Autotune only cost you time vs. the expense of having it put on a dyno. And again, you'll end up being setup to run full time closed loop.
Interesting though... So '06s had no O2 sensors to begin with making them run fully open loop?
I'm using A wide band PV set-up on my 05 Deluxe. If I were to do it today, I'd use Target Tune.
#29
12-09-2016, 10:07 AM
Stellar HDF Member
O2 sensors were introduced on the 06 Dyna's. All previous FI bikes ran open loop maps. O5 and O6 ECM's will support closed loop operation with -176 maps if narrow band O2 sensors are added.
I'm using A wide band PV set-up on my 05 Deluxe. If I were to do it today, I'd use Target Tune.
I'm using A wide band PV set-up on my 05 Deluxe. If I were to do it today, I'd use Target Tune.
Learn something everyday....
#30
12-09-2016, 02:20 PM
Stellar HDF Member
FWIW, the Delphi EFI is, in fact a closed loop system as it comes out of the factory.
Closed loop as defined by a system that relies on input from sensors to make decisions for fueling and timing.
If there is a need for different sensors and system in order to provide another/different closed loop system, one must ask why is another system needed to accomplish virtually the same results.
I show absolutely no advantage to any of the aftermarket tuning systems over a properly recalibrated/tuned stock EFI system.
I do see a disadvantage when it comes to Harley shops working with aftermarket fuel and/or timing control systems when they've been trained on the stock system.
Just my experiences,
Bob
Closed loop as defined by a system that relies on input from sensors to make decisions for fueling and timing.
If there is a need for different sensors and system in order to provide another/different closed loop system, one must ask why is another system needed to accomplish virtually the same results.
I show absolutely no advantage to any of the aftermarket tuning systems over a properly recalibrated/tuned stock EFI system.
I do see a disadvantage when it comes to Harley shops working with aftermarket fuel and/or timing control systems when they've been trained on the stock system.
Just my experiences,
Bob