Yep, my guess is sumping. The fact that ur engine was stock doesn’t bode well long term for early 2017 CVO bike owners. Looks like many will eventually have some type of lubrication issues due to the original and early versions of the new M8 oil pump.

 

Funny how you could say that...... Since you yourself have had newer pumps with no luck and HD is currently on revision 5 of the pumps and still having issues. There have also been 107's that have sumped as well! There is a problem and until the root cause is truly found, no one knows what its going to take to fix it. It can and does effect ALL M8's currently. There is also an assortment of 117 - 124 cu in M8 engines running with no issues.

 

Hey Steve, hoping for some clarity here on "It can and does effect ALL M8's currently"

how so? wouldn't it have manifested itself by now? putting aside the "can", not understanding "does affect ALL M8's"..are you saying the underlying issue is a time bomb waiting to happen?..just not understanding the difference between "can" and "does" in the context of "ALL"

wife and I have have 25,000 combined miles on our oil cooled 107's with none of the sumping symptoms whatsoever being described on all these related threads...

thanks

 

What I am trying to say is that NO ONE currently knows what the root cause of the problem is. Since it is unknown and it is happening to 107's, 114's, and 117's there has to be a common problem. Now it does appear to effect more of the 117 and 114 builds but there are still 107 that have had it happen.

With that said ALL M8's could have an issue, we just do not currently know. This goes right along with the fact that we have several builds with the original oil pump in them at 117 and 120 cu in and NO issues! IMHO there is more going on than just an oil pump issue. Until that root problem is identified we are all in limbo.

 

Here's how I reached the conclusion I stated above. My first engine was a very early M8 engine built last Fall, delivered in late Oct with the first design oil pump. While I suspected something related to overheating in stock form from day 1 (I actually have an incident # within 300 miles after taking delivery), it was nothing I could prove since I didn't even know what I was looking for. The stage 4 on engine #1 definitely exacerbated the problem by June of this year. By July it was failing and evaluated as toast shortly before SB1450 was released. Up until that point there were no forum reports of sumping that I was aware of that resulted in engine failure. I posted my thread that others began to report similar experiences on.

My 114 was replaced (#2) in July with the latest oil pump. It still didn't feel correct after running for a hr but it was definitely better. I upgraded to stage 4 with the oil pump that was installed in the engine from the factory in July. I was told it would be the latest oil pump.

#2 failed after the stage 4 upgrade within 300 miles due to overheating. At this point I had a very "frank" discussion with "knowledgeable" people inside HD familiar with my bike and situation. They communicated at that time (late July) that there had been no warranty claims for sumping on a stock 114 or 107 engine failure due to sumping. All failures were reported for warranty claims after upgrades to stage 3 or 4 performance kits.

#3 engine gets installed in mid-Aug. I'm informed the #3 engine has a bottom end off the 2018 engine assembly line with 114 cylinders. I've ridden the bike over 1000 miles, in stock form, and there is nothing I can do to bring about the signs of sumping. I 've ridden long distance 2up tank to tank, and had a chance to run the bike at 85mph, solid for 45 mins without interruption. No signs of sumping at all.

I've only read 1 post of a 107 stock engine that failed but I have not read if it was replaced or confirmed as sumping. This latest 114 post was the first I've read that was a stock 114 engine replaced under warranty, possibly due to sumping.

I could easily be wrong, but I personally believe based on my own experience and the specific feedback I've received, that the oil sumping is most prominent the earlier you go back in the build year and that appears to be proven out whenever an engine sumps when you ask when was it built.

I'm now convinced that early 107s and early 114s are most vulnerable to sumping failure based on riding style and whether it has been upgraded to stage 3/4. Each improved oil pump version reduced the failure point but didn't eliminate it as determined by riding style and engine upgrades.

I also believe my #3 engine has the same oil pump as currently being installed in 2018 117s engines which has either significantly reduced the likelihood of sumping or eliminated it. But that's just a belief. Feel free to refute it with whatever evidence you have. I'm all ears and open to facts that point in a different direction than my belief.

There are 2 final tests that need to be made before I'm FULLY convinced the issue is COMPLETELY solved.

1) My own stage 4 upgrade to #3, ridden by me and me alone to test for sumping and engine performance. I haven't decided yet when I will be upgrading to stage 4.

2) Seeing other riders upgrading their 2018 CVO 117s to a stage 3/4 kit, putting thousands of miles on them, riding them hard and having no signs of sumping, power loss, overheating or engine failures resulting in warranty claims.

Take my opinion for exactly what its worth since its free.

 

Just curious - how does a failing oil pump "feel"? What do you mean by that? What should other riders look for or "feel"?

 

Here's a full writeup https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwa...ddressing.html

Here's the cliff notes version.
1) ride the bike normal for about an hr to get it fully heat soaked.
2) Then ride it hard in the twisties for 30+ mins. Higher RPMs, lots of throttle changes OR
3) Take the bike on a higher speed (80+) highway ride for an HR. Drop it into 5th and 4th gear alot as if passing.
4) After that long ride try to accelerate hard in either 5th or 6th gear. If there is a complete loss of power at that point, you may have an issue with sumping.
5) At that point, refer to the details in Service Bulletin 1450
6) If you have a smell of burnt oil when you open the dipstick after that hard run, there's a VERY good likelihood you have oil sumping issues.

 

I did #1 and had #6. And new engine is being shipped as we speak...


FrankEGD

 

Yep, that would be the first stocker 114 with an engine failure, at least posted on the forums. You might be the first of more to follow.

 

Not sure I need that kind of fame though...
But THANKS anyway.
So, with all that talk and no pictures: I went to the shop, looked at the bike and here we go - PICTURES!!
Not much to see, except some deposits on the front piston. Some discoloration on front cylinder, but no visible surface damage (I might be blind though...).
No other parts as far as I could see have discoloration or damage. Tech said he talked to MoCo and after a few min they agreed to send new engine.


I hope that helps.
Thank you.
FrankEGD