Drive ratio upgrade HOW TO: Belt Pulleys, Primary sprockets, improve TQ up to 13%
#111
02-04-2016, 12:02 PM
^ Good luck on everything - Definitely gotta give Fat11Lo some credit here since he pointed out the obvious on the PV that I had stupidly overlooked. That one fact where you can save your dyno tuned ECM settings and carry them into the PV should make things a whole lot easier for you. No downtime.
. Sorry I forgot to mention, mea culpa!
#112
02-12-2016, 02:19 PM
Road Warrior
Problem with Rivera Primo Game Changer!
Oops!
We have discussed on this thread in prior postings how the Rivera Primo Game Changer kit can be an easy and relatively inexpensive way to change the egaring by almost 6%.
Basically, what that kit does is provides a 32T sprocket that replaces the factory 34T sprocket that is mounted on the compensator inside the primary case, and also a "snap-on" piece that snaps onto the factory chain tensioner. I believe the older kits also included a shorter primary chain, but the newer kits evidently do not, probably because it was discovered that the snap-on tensioner piece adequately allows for the slighter smaller compensator sprocket.
However, in talking to Rivera Primo today, it seems that their website, and the websites of multiple dealers, are incorrect when they imply that the Game Changer works on any "big twin". Per the lady I talked to Rivera Primo today in checking out which part number to buy (The Game Changer kit comes in two different part numbers: Part # 1066-0050 & 1066-0051), the answer is NEITHER. She told me that the kit works only with Touring models. Not with Softail models. This is apaprently DESPITE what theiur own website says and what at least 2 dealer websites say.
The 10660-0050 kit works with 2013 and prior years, while the 1066-0051 works with 2014 and later years, but with Touring models only.
I have no idea how the Softail primary setup, and in particular the primary setup on my own 2014 Breakout, differs from that of the Touring models, but she said there is a difference that makes the kit unusable on a Softail (and of course a Breakout, like the Rocker before it, differs from other Softails even due to the wide rear tire changing the width of tranny and primary components).
Sigh . . .
I was really looking forward to doing this mod.
Jim G
We have discussed on this thread in prior postings how the Rivera Primo Game Changer kit can be an easy and relatively inexpensive way to change the egaring by almost 6%.
Basically, what that kit does is provides a 32T sprocket that replaces the factory 34T sprocket that is mounted on the compensator inside the primary case, and also a "snap-on" piece that snaps onto the factory chain tensioner. I believe the older kits also included a shorter primary chain, but the newer kits evidently do not, probably because it was discovered that the snap-on tensioner piece adequately allows for the slighter smaller compensator sprocket.
However, in talking to Rivera Primo today, it seems that their website, and the websites of multiple dealers, are incorrect when they imply that the Game Changer works on any "big twin". Per the lady I talked to Rivera Primo today in checking out which part number to buy (The Game Changer kit comes in two different part numbers: Part # 1066-0050 & 1066-0051), the answer is NEITHER. She told me that the kit works only with Touring models. Not with Softail models. This is apaprently DESPITE what theiur own website says and what at least 2 dealer websites say.
The 10660-0050 kit works with 2013 and prior years, while the 1066-0051 works with 2014 and later years, but with Touring models only.
I have no idea how the Softail primary setup, and in particular the primary setup on my own 2014 Breakout, differs from that of the Touring models, but she said there is a difference that makes the kit unusable on a Softail (and of course a Breakout, like the Rocker before it, differs from other Softails even due to the wide rear tire changing the width of tranny and primary components).
Sigh . . .
I was really looking forward to doing this mod.
Jim G
#114
02-13-2016, 02:19 PM
Road Warrior
Paging LA_Dog: Problems
I spent some time this morning discussing changing the gearing on my Breakout, with Brian, the Harley dealer mechanic at Cowboy HD who does all the mods on my bike for me when they exceed my capabilities, tools, or risk tolerances. It was a sobering conversation.
First, Brian confirmed that the Rivera Primo Game Changer kit would not work on the Breakout if the kit was designed for the touring models, as the compensator / sprocket assembly on the Breakout is different than on the touring models. It is in fact he says, almost entirely unique within HD, with only the Rocker model PERHAPS being same as the Breakout, but he is not even sure about the Rocker model being identical.
The uniaueness is due to the different cross-bike spacing required on the compensator assembly in order to work with a driveline that enables use of the 240mm wide Breakout rear tire. This means no kit designed to work with a normal HD compensator is going to work.
He also confirmed that a gearing change of any significance (i.e. beyond the tolerance limit of the HD programming, which I have heard elsewhere is only about 3%) will affect not only the speedometer, gear display, and ABS, it also, incredibly enough, affects the engine idle! He does not know why, but has seen idling problems appear on some bikes when (only) the gearing is changed. This means adjusting the gearing factor in the ECM is very important to do, which means you need a Powervision or other tool capable of making that factor change.
He said that to change the front belt pulley totals out to about 4 hours of work, so that's about $400 at the shop rate plus the usual "supplies" charges. He also said that the 30 tooth trike front pulley, which is the smallest pulley available from HD, is incredibly expensive. He advised staying away from aftermarket front and rear pulleys unless you KNOW the material used was high quality and has not been degraded via subsequent machining or finishing operations because he has seen a LOT of aftermarket pulleys that cost $$$$ and look gorgeous, but their teeth wear incredibly rapidly and also prematurely wear and ultimately destroy the belt in the process. he said to be REALLY careful on selecting aftermarket pulleys.
Brian then inspected the current adjustor placement on my rear axle, and we found that it can only move forward about 3/8" or maybe a tiny bit more, or rearward about 5/16".
This makes changing ONLY the front belt pulley a risk, as the axle might not be able to move rearward far enough to provide proper tensioning with the smaller (30T versus 32T) trike pulley (There is an HD process for proper tensioning, involving a special tool). That would necessitate a shorter belt, which would be a NON-STANDARD belt. THis is a showstopper for me, as if I ever pick up a stone in the belt and need a new one hundreds or thousands of miles from home, I want to be able to get one RIGHT NOW at the nearest HD dealership. Not wait a week or ? for a non-standard length replacement belt.
This appeared to leave changing the rear pulley only as a final way to get regeared RELATIVELY inexpensively, by going to a 68T or 70T rear pulley. The big advantages of this is it would require removing ONLY the rear wheel to make the pulley swap, and that is easy, fast, and cheap - the shop does it every time they balance a wheel or change a tire. However, a brief examination and merely "rough" measuring shows that this too has issues.
My 68T chrome Turbine pulley has a diameter of roughly 12", with a working top-surface-of-belt diameter of roughly about 11-5/8" (11.63"). This means it's working belt surface circumference = 11.63 x 3.14159 = 36.5".
A 68T pulley would not be worth doing alone, as it only changes the gearing by 68/66 = 1.03 = a 3% improvement. A 70T pulley would raise it by 70/66 = 1.06 = a 6% improvement, which is worth doing.
But a 70T pulley will have a working belt diameter (top surface of belt) of 70/66 = 1.06 x 36.5" = 38.7, or 38.7 minus 36.5 = 2.2 inches longer than the standard 66T pulley.
The "wrap" of the belt on the rear pulley is something more than 180 degrees (because the rear pulley is over twice the diameter of the rear pulley, but not all THAT much more. However, just using 180 degrees, that means the larger pulley will consume something more than 180/360 x 2.2" = something more than 1.1" more belt than the 66T pulley does.
That 1.1" is divided between the upper and lower runs of the belt from the rear pulley to the front, so the axle adjuster moves forward something more than 1.1" / 2 = something more than 0.55".
But, remember I have only 3/8" (or a tiny bit more than that) of forward movement range for my axle adjusters. So, my belt tension would be too high. That's a major bummer. And again, I don't want to change to a non-standard belt length.
Then there's also the matter of the chromed metal belt guard. The clearance from the top surface of the belt to the underside surface of the belt guard is only about 1/4" (because of the hidden brace thickness that fastens the belt guard to the bike's swingarm - you can see it from the righthand side of the bike, looking through the rear wheel). But we have already calculated that the 70T rear pulley will have a diameter 6% larger than the stock pulley, which means a diameter increase of 6% of 11.63" = 0.7", or a radius increase of 0.7/2 = 0.35". So, the belt would rub solidly against the hidden chain guard brace.
This means that INCREASING ONLY the rear pulley size, without simultaneously DECREASING the front pulley size, won't work, unless you settle for a mere 3% gearig change. A 3% gearing change doesn't strike me as worth doing for the costs involved.
So, LA_Dog's original premise of doing BOTH the 30T front and 68 or 70T rear seems to be the only solution that actually works with the actual dimensions on the Breakout. And if you need a shop to do it (as I do because of workplace and tool issues previously mentioned), the cost for changing both is not trivial. It's more than I want to spend. My personal limit for this would be in the $600 +/- range (which is still wildly costly compared to changing fina drive sprockets and chains on Japanese or even Italian bikes!), and that won't work with the cost of parts and labor involved on this HD model.
Sigh . . .
It's frustrating to know the easy and bargain solution (changing just the rear pulley), but to also know that the HD factory has made it unnecessarily costly.
All I can consider now is a clutch basket change, to an aftermarket clutch assembly that has more teeth on it than the factory clutch assembly (at least 5% more teeth to make it worthwhile). A longer primary chain would also be needed. I can't see the parts and labor for that solution being at or below my $600 +/- range limit.
Jim G
First, Brian confirmed that the Rivera Primo Game Changer kit would not work on the Breakout if the kit was designed for the touring models, as the compensator / sprocket assembly on the Breakout is different than on the touring models. It is in fact he says, almost entirely unique within HD, with only the Rocker model PERHAPS being same as the Breakout, but he is not even sure about the Rocker model being identical.
The uniaueness is due to the different cross-bike spacing required on the compensator assembly in order to work with a driveline that enables use of the 240mm wide Breakout rear tire. This means no kit designed to work with a normal HD compensator is going to work.
He also confirmed that a gearing change of any significance (i.e. beyond the tolerance limit of the HD programming, which I have heard elsewhere is only about 3%) will affect not only the speedometer, gear display, and ABS, it also, incredibly enough, affects the engine idle! He does not know why, but has seen idling problems appear on some bikes when (only) the gearing is changed.
This means adjusting the gearing factor in the ECM is very important to do, which means you need a Powervision or other tool capable of making that factor change.He said that to change the front belt pulley totals out to about 4 hours of work, so that's about $400 at the shop rate plus the usual "supplies" charges. He also said that the 30 tooth trike front pulley, which is the smallest pulley available from HD, is incredibly expensive. He advised staying away from aftermarket front and rear pulleys unless you KNOW the material used was high quality and has not been degraded via subsequent machining or finishing operations because he has seen a LOT of aftermarket pulleys that cost $$$$ and look gorgeous, but their teeth wear incredibly rapidly and also prematurely wear and ultimately destroy the belt in the process. he said to be REALLY careful on selecting aftermarket pulleys.
Brian then inspected the current adjustor placement on my rear axle, and we found that it can only move forward about 3/8" or maybe a tiny bit more, or rearward about 5/16".
This makes changing ONLY the front belt pulley a risk, as the axle might not be able to move rearward far enough to provide proper tensioning with the smaller (30T versus 32T) trike pulley (There is an HD process for proper tensioning, involving a special tool). That would necessitate a shorter belt, which would be a NON-STANDARD belt. THis is a showstopper for me, as if I ever pick up a stone in the belt and need a new one hundreds or thousands of miles from home, I want to be able to get one RIGHT NOW at the nearest HD dealership. Not wait a week or ? for a non-standard length replacement belt.
This appeared to leave changing the rear pulley only as a final way to get regeared RELATIVELY inexpensively, by going to a 68T or 70T rear pulley. The big advantages of this is it would require removing ONLY the rear wheel to make the pulley swap, and that is easy, fast, and cheap - the shop does it every time they balance a wheel or change a tire. However, a brief examination and merely "rough" measuring shows that this too has issues.
My 68T chrome Turbine pulley has a diameter of roughly 12", with a working top-surface-of-belt diameter of roughly about 11-5/8" (11.63"). This means it's working belt surface circumference = 11.63 x 3.14159 = 36.5".
A 68T pulley would not be worth doing alone, as it only changes the gearing by 68/66 = 1.03 = a 3% improvement. A 70T pulley would raise it by 70/66 = 1.06 = a 6% improvement, which is worth doing.
But a 70T pulley will have a working belt diameter (top surface of belt) of 70/66 = 1.06 x 36.5" = 38.7, or 38.7 minus 36.5 = 2.2 inches longer than the standard 66T pulley.
The "wrap" of the belt on the rear pulley is something more than 180 degrees (because the rear pulley is over twice the diameter of the rear pulley, but not all THAT much more. However, just using 180 degrees, that means the larger pulley will consume something more than 180/360 x 2.2" = something more than 1.1" more belt than the 66T pulley does.
That 1.1" is divided between the upper and lower runs of the belt from the rear pulley to the front, so the axle adjuster moves forward something more than 1.1" / 2 = something more than 0.55".
But, remember I have only 3/8" (or a tiny bit more than that) of forward movement range for my axle adjusters. So, my belt tension would be too high. That's a major bummer. And again, I don't want to change to a non-standard belt length.
Then there's also the matter of the chromed metal belt guard. The clearance from the top surface of the belt to the underside surface of the belt guard is only about 1/4" (because of the hidden brace thickness that fastens the belt guard to the bike's swingarm - you can see it from the righthand side of the bike, looking through the rear wheel). But we have already calculated that the 70T rear pulley will have a diameter 6% larger than the stock pulley, which means a diameter increase of 6% of 11.63" = 0.7", or a radius increase of 0.7/2 = 0.35". So, the belt would rub solidly against the hidden chain guard brace.
This means that INCREASING ONLY the rear pulley size, without simultaneously DECREASING the front pulley size, won't work, unless you settle for a mere 3% gearig change. A 3% gearing change doesn't strike me as worth doing for the costs involved.
So, LA_Dog's original premise of doing BOTH the 30T front and 68 or 70T rear seems to be the only solution that actually works with the actual dimensions on the Breakout. And if you need a shop to do it (as I do because of workplace and tool issues previously mentioned), the cost for changing both is not trivial. It's more than I want to spend. My personal limit for this would be in the $600 +/- range (which is still wildly costly compared to changing fina drive sprockets and chains on Japanese or even Italian bikes!), and that won't work with the cost of parts and labor involved on this HD model.
Sigh . . .
It's frustrating to know the easy and bargain solution (changing just the rear pulley), but to also know that the HD factory has made it unnecessarily costly.
All I can consider now is a clutch basket change, to an aftermarket clutch assembly that has more teeth on it than the factory clutch assembly (at least 5% more teeth to make it worthwhile). A longer primary chain would also be needed. I can't see the parts and labor for that solution being at or below my $600 +/- range limit.
Jim G
Last edited by JimGnitecki; 02-13-2016 at 06:31 PM.
#115
02-13-2016, 05:27 PM
Jim that's good research but you may be overthinking it a bit if you don't mind me saying so. If it was too costly vs reward, I would not have done it- or I would have said "yeh that sucked don't waste your $$". LOL
On page 1 I also stated that a 70t rear will only work with a 30t front. no go with a 32t/70t and stock belt. Also a 30t front will not go with a 66t stock rear and stock belt.
There's just enough room for 30/70 with stock belt with that tad more than 3/8"- it had me freaked out a bit too but I figured someone's got to be the guinea pig right? ;p
For sure it fits. The belt will be too loose with 30/70 and you'll get about 5 turns on the adjusters till belt is properly tight. your belt guard will need to be removed or modify the brackets to fit the larger rear pulley.
the HD 30t pulley is about $60-ish range from Surdyke, and they pop up on ebay time to time used for less.
Dealer install costs on this can vary by $100. Call different dealers and you'll get variance in prices. $400 is really top of the range- that should also include fluids and gaskets- not additional. gaskets / fluid alone are like $80 or so. $300 would be a fair labor charge.
so let's say it's a $500 all in job for the front pulley swap. and another $300-$400 for the rear pulley swap (cost is dependent on $ of pulley and if you DIY or pay dealer $150 to do it for you).
So let's say you spend $700-$900 "all in". And you get back 13% real added TQ to the rear wheel and more speed / acceleration gain that if you'd spent that money on cams. That is a bargain if you look at "$ vs performance" of typical $1000-range upgrades. Anything worthwhile doing on a HD costs at minimum close to a grand and in most cases more. This is one of the best bang for buck items.
changing the rear drive pulleys will *not* affect idle. not sure about ABS or cruise control- but none of the touring guys have reported any issues along these lines and they were pretty much the pioneers of doing this.
IMO I would keep this on the back burner, take your time on buying the parts at deal prices as they come up. then schedule and do the install labor / have the 30 / 70 installed at same time. I bet they'll cut you a break on the total. that's all pretty much the same process as I did.
I spent about $600 doing the 30/68 and then another $110 going 68 to 70. Only labor I saved on was pulling the rear wheel and swapping rear pulley myself. dealer charges about $80 to RR the Breakout rear wheel. I can firmly say even if I spent a grand on this I would not be complaining one single shred. there's no way you'd feel like you overspent for what you got back.
On page 1 I also stated that a 70t rear will only work with a 30t front. no go with a 32t/70t and stock belt. Also a 30t front will not go with a 66t stock rear and stock belt.
There's just enough room for 30/70 with stock belt with that tad more than 3/8"- it had me freaked out a bit too but I figured someone's got to be the guinea pig right? ;p
For sure it fits. The belt will be too loose with 30/70 and you'll get about 5 turns on the adjusters till belt is properly tight. your belt guard will need to be removed or modify the brackets to fit the larger rear pulley.
the HD 30t pulley is about $60-ish range from Surdyke, and they pop up on ebay time to time used for less.
Dealer install costs on this can vary by $100. Call different dealers and you'll get variance in prices. $400 is really top of the range- that should also include fluids and gaskets- not additional. gaskets / fluid alone are like $80 or so. $300 would be a fair labor charge.
so let's say it's a $500 all in job for the front pulley swap. and another $300-$400 for the rear pulley swap (cost is dependent on $ of pulley and if you DIY or pay dealer $150 to do it for you).
So let's say you spend $700-$900 "all in". And you get back 13% real added TQ to the rear wheel and more speed / acceleration gain that if you'd spent that money on cams. That is a bargain if you look at "$ vs performance" of typical $1000-range upgrades. Anything worthwhile doing on a HD costs at minimum close to a grand and in most cases more. This is one of the best bang for buck items.
changing the rear drive pulleys will *not* affect idle. not sure about ABS or cruise control- but none of the touring guys have reported any issues along these lines and they were pretty much the pioneers of doing this.
IMO I would keep this on the back burner, take your time on buying the parts at deal prices as they come up. then schedule and do the install labor / have the 30 / 70 installed at same time. I bet they'll cut you a break on the total. that's all pretty much the same process as I did.
I spent about $600 doing the 30/68 and then another $110 going 68 to 70. Only labor I saved on was pulling the rear wheel and swapping rear pulley myself. dealer charges about $80 to RR the Breakout rear wheel. I can firmly say even if I spent a grand on this I would not be complaining one single shred. there's no way you'd feel like you overspent for what you got back.
#116
02-13-2016, 05:49 PM
Road Warrior
Jim that's good research but you may be overthinking it a bit if you don't mind me saying so. If it was too costly vs reward, I would not have done it- or I would have said "yeh that sucked don't waste your $$". LOL
On page 1 I also stated that a 70t rear will only work with a 30t front. no go with a 32t/70t and stock belt. Also a 30t front will not go with a 66t stock rear and stock belt.
There's just enough room for 30/70 with stock belt with that tad more than 3/8"- it had me freaked out a bit too but I figured someone's got to be the guinea pig right? ;p
For sure it fits. The belt will be too loose with 30/70 and you'll get about 5 turns on the adjusters till belt is properly tight. your belt guard will need to be removed or modify the brackets to fit the larger rear pulley.
the HD 30t pulley is about $60-ish range from Surdyke, and they pop up on ebay time to time used for less.
Dealer install costs on this can vary by $100. Call different dealers and you'll get variance in prices. $400 is really top of the range- that should also include fluids and gaskets- not additional. gaskets / fluid alone are like $80 or so. $300 would be a fair labor charge.
so let's say it's a $500 all in job for the front pulley swap. and another $300-$400 for the rear pulley swap (cost is dependent on $ of pulley and if you DIY or pay dealer $150 to do it for you).
So let's say you spend $700-$900 "all in". And you get back 13% real added TQ to the rear wheel and more speed / acceleration gain that if you'd spent that money on cams. That is a bargain if you look at "$ vs performance" of typical $1000-range upgrades. Anything worthwhile doing on a HD costs at minimum close to a grand and in most cases more. This is one of the best bang for buck items.
changing the rear drive pulleys will *not* affect idle. not sure about ABS or cruise control- but none of the touring guys have reported any issues along these lines and they were pretty much the pioneers of doing this.
IMO I would keep this on the back burner, take your time on buying the parts at deal prices as they come up. then schedule and do the install labor / have the 30 / 70 installed at same time. I bet they'll cut you a break on the total. that's all pretty much the same process as I did.
I spent about $600 doing the 30/68 and then another $110 going 68 to 70. Only labor I saved on was pulling the rear wheel and swapping rear pulley myself. dealer charges about $80 to RR the Breakout rear wheel. I can firmly say even if I spent a grand on this I would not be complaining one single shred. there's no way you'd feel like you overspent for what you got back.
On page 1 I also stated that a 70t rear will only work with a 30t front. no go with a 32t/70t and stock belt. Also a 30t front will not go with a 66t stock rear and stock belt.
There's just enough room for 30/70 with stock belt with that tad more than 3/8"- it had me freaked out a bit too but I figured someone's got to be the guinea pig right? ;p
For sure it fits. The belt will be too loose with 30/70 and you'll get about 5 turns on the adjusters till belt is properly tight. your belt guard will need to be removed or modify the brackets to fit the larger rear pulley.
the HD 30t pulley is about $60-ish range from Surdyke, and they pop up on ebay time to time used for less.
Dealer install costs on this can vary by $100. Call different dealers and you'll get variance in prices. $400 is really top of the range- that should also include fluids and gaskets- not additional. gaskets / fluid alone are like $80 or so. $300 would be a fair labor charge.
so let's say it's a $500 all in job for the front pulley swap. and another $300-$400 for the rear pulley swap (cost is dependent on $ of pulley and if you DIY or pay dealer $150 to do it for you).
So let's say you spend $700-$900 "all in". And you get back 13% real added TQ to the rear wheel and more speed / acceleration gain that if you'd spent that money on cams. That is a bargain if you look at "$ vs performance" of typical $1000-range upgrades. Anything worthwhile doing on a HD costs at minimum close to a grand and in most cases more. This is one of the best bang for buck items.
changing the rear drive pulleys will *not* affect idle. not sure about ABS or cruise control- but none of the touring guys have reported any issues along these lines and they were pretty much the pioneers of doing this.
IMO I would keep this on the back burner, take your time on buying the parts at deal prices as they come up. then schedule and do the install labor / have the 30 / 70 installed at same time. I bet they'll cut you a break on the total. that's all pretty much the same process as I did.
I spent about $600 doing the 30/68 and then another $110 going 68 to 70. Only labor I saved on was pulling the rear wheel and swapping rear pulley myself. dealer charges about $80 to RR the Breakout rear wheel. I can firmly say even if I spent a grand on this I would not be complaining one single shred. there's no way you'd feel like you overspent for what you got back.
Remember too though, that both you and I already have a Powervision to change the gearing factor in the ECU. Others do not.
Jim G
#117
02-13-2016, 09:00 PM
right! love the PV 
well don;t think my budget is unlimited- it's not. I try to be as cost effective as possible and there's always the "go / no go" from the missus. you know the drill
if you run the numbers on the game changer it's about the same cost overall.
game changer = $200 give or take
labor $200 give or take with gaskets and fluid
let's call it $400 total
possibility of messing with idle, abs and cruise control
need to refactor 1-6 gear ratios in PV
maybe need to edit speedometer correction value for fine tuning
less potential to just jump on and ride off from dealer due to unknown outcome
-----------------------
harley or andrews 30t front pulley: $45-$100 depending on what deal you find on ebay, amazon or surdyke. all of these fronts are steel pulleys so they will all wear very well.
labor $400 give or take (should be closer to $300 though)
let's call it $500 assuming paying top dollar for labor
no reported issues with idle, abs or cruise control
no fiddling with 1-6 ratios
set new speedometer correction value based on percentage ratio change
jump on and ride off from dealer, no issues, tested and verified.
--------------------
rear pulley 70t about $200 give or take. you can find one for closer to $100 if you take time and shop around. here's a HD chromie for under $200, will bolt right on to the Breakout and has offset spacer built in. www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Show-Chrome-Street-Glide-Road-King-70-Tooth-1-1-8-Pulley-/281914581762
labor lets say $100 tops. this is not a hard job at all.
we'll call it $200-$300 for the rear upgrade
game changer route can be $100-$150 less but can also be more fiddly
I would assume a clutch ring gear ratio change would be about the same in cost / labor
So you're not really breaking the bank by going the belt pulley route, it is only slightly more to almost even if you take time and find deal on parts. but the one big downside is you have to do both pulleys so the overall cost is higher- I totally get that vs only doing the game changer / no rear pulley.
You could look at it overall as a less costly upgrade because you probably won't want to upgrade your cams afterwards. See, I just actually saved you money Jim
most of the billet pulleys on the market will wear slightly faster than a cast with steel tooth ring, but we are still talking many many thousands of miles. it's nothing significant.
well don;t think my budget is unlimited- it's not. I try to be as cost effective as possible and there's always the "go / no go" from the missus. you know the drill if you run the numbers on the game changer it's about the same cost overall.
game changer = $200 give or take
labor $200 give or take with gaskets and fluid
let's call it $400 total
possibility of messing with idle, abs and cruise control
need to refactor 1-6 gear ratios in PV
maybe need to edit speedometer correction value for fine tuning
less potential to just jump on and ride off from dealer due to unknown outcome
-----------------------
harley or andrews 30t front pulley: $45-$100 depending on what deal you find on ebay, amazon or surdyke. all of these fronts are steel pulleys so they will all wear very well.
labor $400 give or take (should be closer to $300 though)
let's call it $500 assuming paying top dollar for labor
no reported issues with idle, abs or cruise control
no fiddling with 1-6 ratios
set new speedometer correction value based on percentage ratio change
jump on and ride off from dealer, no issues, tested and verified.
--------------------
rear pulley 70t about $200 give or take. you can find one for closer to $100 if you take time and shop around. here's a HD chromie for under $200, will bolt right on to the Breakout and has offset spacer built in. www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Show-Chrome-Street-Glide-Road-King-70-Tooth-1-1-8-Pulley-/281914581762
labor lets say $100 tops. this is not a hard job at all.
we'll call it $200-$300 for the rear upgrade
game changer route can be $100-$150 less but can also be more fiddly
I would assume a clutch ring gear ratio change would be about the same in cost / labor
So you're not really breaking the bank by going the belt pulley route, it is only slightly more to almost even if you take time and find deal on parts. but the one big downside is you have to do both pulleys so the overall cost is higher- I totally get that vs only doing the game changer / no rear pulley.
You could look at it overall as a less costly upgrade because you probably won't want to upgrade your cams afterwards. See, I just actually saved you money Jim
most of the billet pulleys on the market will wear slightly faster than a cast with steel tooth ring, but we are still talking many many thousands of miles. it's nothing significant.
Last edited by LA_Dog; 02-13-2016 at 09:08 PM.
#118
02-13-2016, 09:16 PM
Road Warrior
right! love the PV well don;t think my budget is unlimited- it's not. I try to be as cost effective as possible and there's always the "go / no go" from the missus. you know the drill
if you run the numbers on the game changer it's about the same cost overall.
game changer = $200 give or take
labor $200 give or take with gaskets and fluid
let's call it $400 total
possibility of messing with idle, abs and cruise control
need to refactor 1-6 gear ratios in PV
maybe need to edit speedometer correction value for fine tuning
less potential to just jump on and ride off from dealer due to unknown outcome
-----------------------
harley or andrews 30t front pulley: $45-$100 depending on what deal you find on ebay, amazon or surdyke. all of these fronts are steel pulleys so they will all wear very well.
labor $400 give or take (should be closer to $300 though)
let's call it $500 assuming paying top dollar for labor
no reported issues with idle, abs or cruise control
no fiddling with 1-6 ratios
set new speedometer correction value based on percentage ratio change
jump on and ride off from dealer, no issues, tested and verified.
--------------------
rear pulley 70t about $200 give or take. you can find one for closer to $100 if you take time and shop around. here's a HD chromie for under $200, will bolt right on to the Breakout and has offset spacer built in. www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Show-Chrome-Street-Glide-Road-King-70-Tooth-1-1-8-Pulley-/281914581762
labor lets say $100 tops. this is not a hard job at all.
we'll call it $200-$300 for the rear upgrade
game changer route can be $100-$150 less but can also be more fiddly
I would assume a clutch ring gear ratio change would be about the same in cost / labor
So you're not really breaking the bank by going the belt pulley route, it is only slightly more to almost even if you take time and find deal on parts. but the one big downside is you have to do both pulleys so the overall cost is higher- I totally get that vs only doing the game changer / no rear pulley.
You could look at it overall as a less costly upgrade because you probably won't want to upgrade your cams afterwards. See, I just actually saved you money Jim
most of the billet pulleys on the market will wear slightly faster than a cast with steel tooth ring, but we are still talking many many thousands of miles. it's nothing significant.
well don;t think my budget is unlimited- it's not. I try to be as cost effective as possible and there's always the "go / no go" from the missus. you know the drill if you run the numbers on the game changer it's about the same cost overall.
game changer = $200 give or take
labor $200 give or take with gaskets and fluid
let's call it $400 total
possibility of messing with idle, abs and cruise control
need to refactor 1-6 gear ratios in PV
maybe need to edit speedometer correction value for fine tuning
less potential to just jump on and ride off from dealer due to unknown outcome
-----------------------
harley or andrews 30t front pulley: $45-$100 depending on what deal you find on ebay, amazon or surdyke. all of these fronts are steel pulleys so they will all wear very well.
labor $400 give or take (should be closer to $300 though)
let's call it $500 assuming paying top dollar for labor
no reported issues with idle, abs or cruise control
no fiddling with 1-6 ratios
set new speedometer correction value based on percentage ratio change
jump on and ride off from dealer, no issues, tested and verified.
--------------------
rear pulley 70t about $200 give or take. you can find one for closer to $100 if you take time and shop around. here's a HD chromie for under $200, will bolt right on to the Breakout and has offset spacer built in. www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Show-Chrome-Street-Glide-Road-King-70-Tooth-1-1-8-Pulley-/281914581762
labor lets say $100 tops. this is not a hard job at all.
we'll call it $200-$300 for the rear upgrade
game changer route can be $100-$150 less but can also be more fiddly
I would assume a clutch ring gear ratio change would be about the same in cost / labor
So you're not really breaking the bank by going the belt pulley route, it is only slightly more to almost even if you take time and find deal on parts. but the one big downside is you have to do both pulleys so the overall cost is higher- I totally get that vs only doing the game changer / no rear pulley.
You could look at it overall as a less costly upgrade because you probably won't want to upgrade your cams afterwards. See, I just actually saved you money Jim
most of the billet pulleys on the market will wear slightly faster than a cast with steel tooth ring, but we are still talking many many thousands of miles. it's nothing significant.
The required removal of the belt guard is a negative. I don't know how much that increases the probability of belt damage via road debris.
Hmm . . . thinking . . .
Jim G
#119
02-13-2016, 10:28 PM
This appeared to leave changing the rear pulley only as a final way to get regeared RELATIVELY inexpensively, by going to a 68T or 70T rear pulley. The big advantages of this is it would require removing ONLY the rear wheel to make the pulley swap, and that is easy, fast, and cheap - the shop does it every time they balance a wheel or change a tire. However, a brief examination and merely "rough" measuring shows that this too has issues.
My 68T chrome Turbine pulley has a diameter of roughly 12", with a working top-surface-of-belt diameter of roughly about 11-5/8" (11.63"). This means it's working belt surface circumference = 11.63 x 3.14159 = 36.5".
A 68T pulley would not be worth doing alone, as it only changes the gearing by 68/66 = 1.03 = a 3% improvement. A 70T pulley would raise it by 70/66 = 1.06 = a 6% improvement, which is worth doing.
But a 70T pulley will have a working belt diameter (top surface of belt) of 70/66 = 1.06 x 36.5" = 38.7, or 38.7 minus 36.5 = 2.2 inches longer than the standard 66T pulley.
The "wrap" of the belt on the rear pulley is something more than 180 degrees (because the rear pulley is over twice the diameter of the rear pulley, but not all THAT much more. However, just using 180 degrees, that means the larger pulley will consume something more than 180/360 x 2.2" = something more than 1.1" more belt than the 66T pulley does.
That 1.1" is divided between the upper and lower runs of the belt from the rear pulley to the front, so the axle adjuster moves forward something more than 1.1" / 2 = something more than 0.55".
But, remember I have only 3/8" (or a tiny bit more than that) of forward movement range for my axle adjusters. So, my belt tension would be too high. That's a major bummer. And again, I don't want to change to a non-standard belt length.
This means that INCREASING ONLY the rear pulley size, without simultaneously DECREASING the front pulley size, won't work, unless you settle for a mere 3% gearig change. A 3% gearing change doesn't strike me as worth doing for the costs involved.
So, LA_Dog's original premise of doing BOTH the 30T front and 68 or 70T rear seems to be the only solution that actually works with the actual dimensions on the Breakout. And if you need a shop to do it (as I do because of workplace and tool issues previously mentioned), the cost for changing both is not trivial. It's more than I want to spend. My personal limit for this would be in the $600 +/- range (which is still wildly costly compared to changing fina drive sprockets and chains on Japanese or even Italian bikes!), and that won't work with the cost of parts and labor involved on this HD model.
Sigh . . .
It's frustrating to know the easy and bargain solution (changing just the rear pulley), but to also know that the HD factory has made it unnecessarily costly.Jim G
My 68T chrome Turbine pulley has a diameter of roughly 12", with a working top-surface-of-belt diameter of roughly about 11-5/8" (11.63"). This means it's working belt surface circumference = 11.63 x 3.14159 = 36.5".
A 68T pulley would not be worth doing alone, as it only changes the gearing by 68/66 = 1.03 = a 3% improvement. A 70T pulley would raise it by 70/66 = 1.06 = a 6% improvement, which is worth doing.
But a 70T pulley will have a working belt diameter (top surface of belt) of 70/66 = 1.06 x 36.5" = 38.7, or 38.7 minus 36.5 = 2.2 inches longer than the standard 66T pulley.
The "wrap" of the belt on the rear pulley is something more than 180 degrees (because the rear pulley is over twice the diameter of the rear pulley, but not all THAT much more. However, just using 180 degrees, that means the larger pulley will consume something more than 180/360 x 2.2" = something more than 1.1" more belt than the 66T pulley does.
That 1.1" is divided between the upper and lower runs of the belt from the rear pulley to the front, so the axle adjuster moves forward something more than 1.1" / 2 = something more than 0.55".
But, remember I have only 3/8" (or a tiny bit more than that) of forward movement range for my axle adjusters. So, my belt tension would be too high. That's a major bummer. And again, I don't want to change to a non-standard belt length.
This means that INCREASING ONLY the rear pulley size, without simultaneously DECREASING the front pulley size, won't work, unless you settle for a mere 3% gearig change. A 3% gearing change doesn't strike me as worth doing for the costs involved.
So, LA_Dog's original premise of doing BOTH the 30T front and 68 or 70T rear seems to be the only solution that actually works with the actual dimensions on the Breakout. And if you need a shop to do it (as I do because of workplace and tool issues previously mentioned), the cost for changing both is not trivial. It's more than I want to spend. My personal limit for this would be in the $600 +/- range (which is still wildly costly compared to changing fina drive sprockets and chains on Japanese or even Italian bikes!), and that won't work with the cost of parts and labor involved on this HD model.
Sigh . . .
It's frustrating to know the easy and bargain solution (changing just the rear pulley), but to also know that the HD factory has made it unnecessarily costly.Jim G
70 tooth rear fit on my Bones with the stock belt and stock 32 front pulley. Just needed to add jam nuts to the adjusters to lock them down and trim the right side lower plastic fender side because the wheel is moved forward. Feels great from a start and 6th is pleasant at 65.
Well hell how about that??? I'm glad you got inspired because you just taught us all something new. Your CB came with a 133t belt for model year 2010 (same on all 2007-up softail / dyna). The CB frame and swingarm is same as all other softails so that means a 70t will fit on any 2007-up softail that came with 32/66 and a 133t belt.
Your trick with adding simple jam nuts to the belt adjusters is a great idea and I can see why you'd need it.
I concur on the 7/8" forward potential remaining in slot with the stock 32/66. but my calcs said I needed 15/16" so didn;t think it would fit. Glad I was wrong. I'll have to put up a new post with gear / rpm / mph charts and the corrected speedometer setting.
So hows your impression on the gear ratio change? you are at 6.06% shorter ratio vs stock. you should be doing 80mph at 3114 rpm, which is +117 rpm higher than stock. If you do the 30t front you'll pick up another 7%, which is significant. but you should be able to notice some diff with the 6%.
Oh and I'd be interested to know the part number or specific application for your pulley if you can find out- Looks like we got the same exact pulley design wise.
Your trick with adding simple jam nuts to the belt adjusters is a great idea and I can see why you'd need it.
I concur on the 7/8" forward potential remaining in slot with the stock 32/66. but my calcs said I needed 15/16" so didn;t think it would fit. Glad I was wrong. I'll have to put up a new post with gear / rpm / mph charts and the corrected speedometer setting.
So hows your impression on the gear ratio change? you are at 6.06% shorter ratio vs stock. you should be doing 80mph at 3114 rpm, which is +117 rpm higher than stock. If you do the 30t front you'll pick up another 7%, which is significant. but you should be able to notice some diff with the 6%.
Oh and I'd be interested to know the part number or specific application for your pulley if you can find out- Looks like we got the same exact pulley design wise.
Last edited by Rocker B; 02-13-2016 at 11:07 PM.
#120
02-13-2016, 11:02 PM
Road Warrior
We don't know how much the belt adjustment position varies from individual bike to individual bike.
There is also a specific process for setting the correct belt tension. We don't know if everyone follows it. We also don't know what the consequences of too little tension (premature wear of the belt? belt "jumping teeth under hard acceleration?) and too much tension (excessive bearing wear on rear wheel bearing, or worse, excessive bearing wear at front pulley or inside tranny or primary drive?) are. We don't know how long any adverse efefcts take to show up.
Safest route is to change BOTH pulleys to enable adjustment within the correct range.
Jim G