Drive ratio upgrade HOW TO: Belt Pulleys, Primary sprockets, improve TQ up to 13%
#131
02-14-2016, 10:23 AM
Jim- on the belt guard I was thinking of adding and extension piece of some sort. the extension piece bolts to swingarm and guard bolts to extension piece. you're right there is not enough material on the guard itself. but really the only way to mod and set it up properly will be after the 70t is installed.
#132
02-14-2016, 10:31 AM
Road Warrior
this is all very good info- thanks everyone. For those of you who end up doing a 70 with the 32, please try to take a before and after photo of the slot free forward space - it's easiest to photo this with the axle cap nut and outside washer nut removed.
Jim are you sure you only have 3/8"- are you looking at the gap inside the slot between the axle shaft and slot edge (kind of hard to see), or the space showing on the outside between the bolt head / washer edge and forward edge of slot? Shouldn't be that much difference between our same bikes.
and yes I'll keep an eye out for pulley deals!
Jim are you sure you only have 3/8"- are you looking at the gap inside the slot between the axle shaft and slot edge (kind of hard to see), or the space showing on the outside between the bolt head / washer edge and forward edge of slot? Shouldn't be that much difference between our same bikes.
and yes I'll keep an eye out for pulley deals!
Most welded metal parts on mass produced items are welded by putting the component pieces into a fixture that holds them in position for welding. I know this because I used to manage manufacturing plants for large companies, including Toro. Here are the variables in that method:
- The fixture has to have enough play to allow fast eand easy insertion of the component parts into the fixture
- The parts themselves EACH have tolerances. Tighter tolerances cost exponentially more money in a mass production setting, so are avoided wherever not absolutely required
- The tolerances on a swingarm will not be super tight since the designer knows that a belt whose tension varies will be used, and the belt MUST be loosened in order to install and remove the wheel, so an adjustment system is needed anyway, so why go crazy on tolerance control?
- The welding process can cause the component parts or finished assembly to "warp" slightly during welding in the fixture, or as it cools outside the fixture
Lots of opportunity for variance, and process engineers don't design manufacturing processes for any more dimensional accuracy than is absolutely needed for the specific application.
Jim G
#133
02-14-2016, 10:50 AM
Road Warrior
Oops!
We have discussed on this thread in prior postings how the Rivera Primo Game Changer kit can be an easy and relatively inexpensive way to change the egaring by almost 6%.
Basically, what that kit does is provides a 32T sprocket that replaces the factory 34T sprocket that is mounted on the compensator inside the primary case, and also a "snap-on" piece that snaps onto the factory chain tensioner. I believe the older kits also included a shorter primary chain, but the newer kits evidently do not, probably because it was discovered that the snap-on tensioner piece adequately allows for the slighter smaller compensator sprocket.
However, in talking to Rivera Primo today, it seems that their website, and the websites of multiple dealers, are incorrect when they imply that the Game Changer works on any "big twin". Per the lady I talked to Rivera Primo today in checking out which part number to buy (The Game Changer kit comes in two different part numbers: Part # 1066-0050 & 1066-0051), the answer is NEITHER. She told me that the kit works only with Touring models. Not with Softail models. This is apaprently DESPITE what theiur own website says and what at least 2 dealer websites say.
The 10660-0050 kit works with 2013 and prior years, while the 1066-0051 works with 2014 and later years, but with Touring models only.
I have no idea how the Softail primary setup, and in particular the primary setup on my own 2014 Breakout, differs from that of the Touring models, but she said there is a difference that makes the kit unusable on a Softail (and of course a Breakout, like the Rocker before it, differs from other Softails even due to the wide rear tire changing the width of tranny and primary components).
Sigh . . .
I was really looking forward to doing this mod.
Jim G
We have discussed on this thread in prior postings how the Rivera Primo Game Changer kit can be an easy and relatively inexpensive way to change the egaring by almost 6%.
Basically, what that kit does is provides a 32T sprocket that replaces the factory 34T sprocket that is mounted on the compensator inside the primary case, and also a "snap-on" piece that snaps onto the factory chain tensioner. I believe the older kits also included a shorter primary chain, but the newer kits evidently do not, probably because it was discovered that the snap-on tensioner piece adequately allows for the slighter smaller compensator sprocket.
However, in talking to Rivera Primo today, it seems that their website, and the websites of multiple dealers, are incorrect when they imply that the Game Changer works on any "big twin". Per the lady I talked to Rivera Primo today in checking out which part number to buy (The Game Changer kit comes in two different part numbers: Part # 1066-0050 & 1066-0051), the answer is NEITHER. She told me that the kit works only with Touring models. Not with Softail models. This is apaprently DESPITE what theiur own website says and what at least 2 dealer websites say.
The 10660-0050 kit works with 2013 and prior years, while the 1066-0051 works with 2014 and later years, but with Touring models only.
I have no idea how the Softail primary setup, and in particular the primary setup on my own 2014 Breakout, differs from that of the Touring models, but she said there is a difference that makes the kit unusable on a Softail (and of course a Breakout, like the Rocker before it, differs from other Softails even due to the wide rear tire changing the width of tranny and primary components).
Sigh . . .
I was really looking forward to doing this mod.
Jim G
.First, Brian confirmed that the Rivera Primo Game Changer kit would not work on the Breakout if the kit was designed for the touring models, as the compensator / sprocket assembly on the Breakout is different than on the touring models. It is in fact he says, almost entirely unique within HD, with only the Rocker model PERHAPS being same as the Breakout, but he is not even sure about the Rocker model being identical.
The uniaueness is due to the different cross-bike spacing required on the compensator assembly in order to work with a driveline that enables use of the 240mm wide Breakout rear tire. This means no kit designed to work with a normal HD compensator is going to work.
Jim G
The uniaueness is due to the different cross-bike spacing required on the compensator assembly in order to work with a driveline that enables use of the 240mm wide Breakout rear tire. This means no kit designed to work with a normal HD compensator is going to work.
Jim GFrom Rivera Primo:
First from their instruction sheet:
Congratulations on your purchase of the Rivera Primo Gear Ratio Game Changer™. The Game Changer™ works with
the OE parts to give you more low end torque and better low end throttle response on 2007 & Later HD Big Twins. The kit
includes a 32 Tooth Compensator Sprocket and a “Clip-on” Adjuster Shoe.
NOTE: You must use the 2011 Later HD Screamin’ Eagle compensator assembly with the Game Changer kit.
From their catalog:
For 2007 & later Big Twins particularly Touring
models and trikes (Tri Glide™) is our gear ratio
Game Changer™ Reduces the gear ratio from
the stock 1 36 to a stouter better pulling ratio of
1 44 This kit includes everything you will need
to convert your OE compensator assembly to
one that will enable you to pull better on the
straight aways and steep inclines This kit must
be used with the 2011 & later Screaming Eagle®
compensator assembly Earlier models must be
upgraded to the newer compensator Kit includes
a 32 tooth comp sprocket endless primary
chain and spacer for the OE chain adjuster plus
complete do it yourself instructions!
From their website:
2007-'13 - 1066-0050
2014 Later - 1066-0051
And now from the Screaming Eagle catalog:
G. SCREAMIN’ EAGLE® BIG TWIN COMPENSATOR 2
This premium compensator has been engineered with heavier
springs and increased travel to support the high torque output
associated with high compression race and large displacement
engines. Designed to outperform the Original Equipment
compensator, this unit helps protect the engine and driveline
components during harsh drag race launches. Compensator
features improved oil passages, oil deflectors and a needle
bearing thrust washer that improves the overall operation of
these components.
42200064A
Fits ’12-’13 Dyna®, ’12-’13 Softail® (except FXCW, FXCWC,
FXSB, FXSBSE and ’09 FXSTSSE) and ’11-’13 Touring and
Trike models.Original Equipment on ’14-later Dyna, Softail
and Touring models. Requires separate purchase of
Installation Adhesive Kit P/N 11100088.
40100061
Fits ’06-’11 Dyna, ’07-’11 Softail (except FXCW, FXCWC),
’07-’10 Touring, and ’07-’09 CVO™ (except ’09 FXSTSSE)
models. Does not fit Trike. Requires separate purchase of
Installation Adhesive Kit P/N 11100088. Kit includes Rotor
Assembly P/N 30041-08.
42200095A
Fits ’08-’12 FXCWC and ’09 FXSTSSE models and ’13-later
FXSB models. If P/N 40274-08A has been installed
previously, the rotor shell, P/N 30041-08A is not required.
This verifies that the Rocker & Breakout compensators are different, just like you mechanic told you. So i'm going to assume that this mod is not possible for Rocker & Breakout owners
My Question is this: If Rivera Primo says this "This kit must be used with the 2011 & later Screaming Eagle®compensator assembly Earlier models must be upgraded to the newer compensator" then I would assume that it needs to be used with SE p/n 42200064A, but according to the SE catalog this compensator is ".Original Equipment on ’14-later Dyna, Softail and Touring models" but Rivera Primo makes a separate part number 1066-0051 for 2014 and later models. At the same time Rivera Primo also says that "For 2007 & later Big Twins particularly Touring models and trikes (Tri Glide™)" but says that p/n 1066-0050 is for 07-13 models, I'm going to assume that have been updated to the "2011 & later Screaming Eagle®compensator assembly" but the SE catalog contradicts this because there is a difference in the 07-10 touring p/n 40100061 and the 11-13 touring and trike p/n 42200064A.
I'm going to contact Rivera Primo and see if I can get a straight answer on exactly what part numbers their Game Changer is compatible with. I will post the answer if I get one.
Also there seems to be a general consensus that 11 & up Big Twin models were built with the Screaming Eagle compensators but I cannot verify this with part numbers through OE parts manuals
I am going to copy this post and start a thread in the drive train section and hopefully someone with a lot more knowledge on this subject can share some insight with us.
There seems to be more questions than answers at this point.
#134
02-14-2016, 10:56 AM
#135
02-14-2016, 11:19 AM
This is a great thread! While my bike is a Sportster instead of a Softtail I think the info still applies with a few minor differences.
One question, as far as tweaking the speedo after gearing changes; can the PV also be used to adjust the HD combination speedo/tach?
I expect yes since the tweaks are probably really done in the ECM but thought I'd verify.
Thanks!
One question, as far as tweaking the speedo after gearing changes; can the PV also be used to adjust the HD combination speedo/tach?
I expect yes since the tweaks are probably really done in the ECM but thought I'd verify.
Thanks!
#136
02-14-2016, 05:38 PM
Wreckwriter- yes absolutely- the fundamental principal is the same - your 2009 XL1200 comes stock with a 30t front and 68t rear, 1" wide belt with 137t- your bike left the fatory floor already geared more optimally. You could do a 70t rear to get a couple of percentage shorter ratio. or do a 29t front. I think Baker makes them. I'm not sure how the ecm settings item differ for the XL platform- call over to Fuel Moto they would know.
2004-2006 FLHT or 2006 Dyna rear 70t pulleys should be a direct bolt on fit to your bike. you'll need a set of longer pulley bolts from HD, same make / model as the pulley.
2004-2006 FLHT or 2006 Dyna rear 70t pulleys should be a direct bolt on fit to your bike. you'll need a set of longer pulley bolts from HD, same make / model as the pulley.
#137
02-14-2016, 06:29 PM
Wreckwriter- yes absolutely- the fundamental principal is the same - your 2009 XL1200 comes stock with a 30t front and 68t rear, 1" wide belt with 137t- your bike left the fatory floor already geared more optimally. You could do a 70t rear to get a couple of percentage shorter ratio. or do a 29t front. I think Baker makes them. I'm not sure how the ecm settings item differ for the XL platform- call over to Fuel Moto they would know.
2004-2006 FLHT or 2006 Dyna rear 70t pulleys should be a direct bolt on fit to your bike. you'll need a set of longer pulley bolts from HD, same make / model as the pulley.
2004-2006 FLHT or 2006 Dyna rear 70t pulleys should be a direct bolt on fit to your bike. you'll need a set of longer pulley bolts from HD, same make / model as the pulley.
#138
02-14-2016, 06:32 PM
#139
02-14-2016, 10:40 PM
Road Warrior
why going from 32T front pulley to 30T and simultaneously going from 66T rear pulley to 70T rear pulley works
Here's the math on why going from 32T front pulley to 30T and simultaneously going from 66T rear pulley to 70T rear pulley works on a Breakout model:
Stock 66T rear pulley has working diameter of 11.63”
So, working diameter of 32T stock front pulley = 32/66 x 11.63” = 5.64”
Working circumference of 32T pulley = 3.14159 x 5.64” = 17.7”
So working circumference of 30T pulley = 30/32 x 17.7” = 16.61”
Pulley wrap = slightly < ½ of pulley (because front pulley is smaller than rear pulley) = < 8.85” for 32T and .55”
Split between top and bottom runs, this is 0.55”/2 = .275”
This means axle must be moved forward .275”
I appear to have over .375” of forward movement available, so should work! (0.1” of adjustor range left unused) (whew!)
Jim G
Stock 66T rear pulley has working diameter of 11.63”
So, working diameter of 32T stock front pulley = 32/66 x 11.63” = 5.64”
Working circumference of 32T pulley = 3.14159 x 5.64” = 17.7”
So working circumference of 30T pulley = 30/32 x 17.7” = 16.61”
Pulley wrap = slightly < ½ of pulley (because front pulley is smaller than rear pulley) = < 8.85” for 32T and .55”
Split between top and bottom runs, this is 0.55”/2 = .275”
This means axle must be moved forward .275”
I appear to have over .375” of forward movement available, so should work! (0.1” of adjustor range left unused) (whew!)
Jim G
#140
02-15-2016, 09:54 AM
Jim- thanks for running the numbers. so yes it's a 0.1 close fit, but still 100% good fit.
for other members reading this it's ok to only have 0.1 of forward slot left because the belt is never going to be any smaller. and there is no potential for the belt to be over-tight or out of alignment. the adjusters will still do their job to align and tighten the belt. however, since the adjusters will remain far outward it would be wise to use a small bit of blue loctite on the threads or set of jam nuts to keep them from vibrating loose.
what do you come up with going from 32/66 to 32/70?
for other members reading this it's ok to only have 0.1 of forward slot left because the belt is never going to be any smaller. and there is no potential for the belt to be over-tight or out of alignment. the adjusters will still do their job to align and tighten the belt. however, since the adjusters will remain far outward it would be wise to use a small bit of blue loctite on the threads or set of jam nuts to keep them from vibrating loose.
what do you come up with going from 32/66 to 32/70?