Is Thundermax worth the extra $$$ for a Stage 1?
#11
12-17-2008, 03:32 PM
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No matter what EFI tuner you get, you will need a dyno tune to get the most out of it.
That said, the canned maps that come with the t-max, TTS Mastertune, or even the Race Tuner are probably ok.
So to compare, you have to compare first the price of the tuning device, then add the price of a dyno tuning job.
For my money, and I've had the t-max and the TTS mastertune, I'd pick the mastertune again. Much much less money, and still has all the features of the T-max. The Auto-Tune is just another way for the EFI to adjust to whatever map you pick. It does not optimize your tune, just makes you EFI produce what your map says it should produce. Pick the wrong map and it will run like crap.
That said, the canned maps that come with the t-max, TTS Mastertune, or even the Race Tuner are probably ok.
So to compare, you have to compare first the price of the tuning device, then add the price of a dyno tuning job.
For my money, and I've had the t-max and the TTS mastertune, I'd pick the mastertune again. Much much less money, and still has all the features of the T-max. The Auto-Tune is just another way for the EFI to adjust to whatever map you pick. It does not optimize your tune, just makes you EFI produce what your map says it should produce. Pick the wrong map and it will run like crap.
I had the T-Max with autotune and now I have the TTS, my bike is running better with the TTS, and I didn't get it dyno'd either.
#12
12-17-2008, 05:32 PM
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I've got V&H BS's on order from Ebay. I'm thinking about doing the full Stage 1 after a month or 2. I thought you just had to pick out an intake choice and then you could have a dealer load a map for ya? Do we have to buy a tuner for a full Stage 1 or will a dealer map work? I'm not looking for full power gain, I just like to sound like a Harley and not a Honda. Just tryin to get my head right on this. If I don't find an intake system I like, I may just keep it stock for the intake. Personally I like what is on the bike
#14
12-17-2008, 10:04 PM
Extreme HDF Member
If you do the air you need to use a tuner due to the more air flow to fuel.The Power Comander(about 300.00) is a good tuner for EFI being how you can get a good flat line across the full scale of RPM's were some lesser tuners wont allow as good a flat line across the full rpm scale....
There are differant settings on tunners for say.....Just examples mind you...
Exhaust,Air,Tuner,stage 1 without download 1....
Exhaust,Air,Tuner,stage 1 with download 1
........................stage 2 w/o
........................stage 2 with...............and so on......
Remember these are just examples.........
So you can get into alot of if's........Dyno is the BEST way to get the most out of a tuner.
There are differant settings on tunners for say.....Just examples mind you...
Exhaust,Air,Tuner,stage 1 without download 1....
Exhaust,Air,Tuner,stage 1 with download 1
........................stage 2 w/o
........................stage 2 with...............and so on......
Remember these are just examples.........
So you can get into alot of if's........Dyno is the BEST way to get the most out of a tuner.
#15
12-17-2008, 11:20 PM
May our Moderator Rest in Peace
"IF" you mess with the intake in any way you "WILL" have to do something about the ECM map.
That being said most of the tuners mentioned above will do an acceptable job.
If you don't have any plans for future engine upgrades like cams, head work or bigger cylinder/pistons a TMax w/Autotune or a TTS is probably a bit like using a sledge hammer to sway a fly, its overkill.
For the average rider who has no plans for internal engine upgrades and just wants to cool his engine while getting a bit more performance with a stage 1 kit. I would suggest you go with a PC III. Its relatively easy to tune, in fact many of the dealer shops have dyno's that will plug directly into the PC III and program it on the fly.
The SERT is also a good way to go, but its slightly handicapped in that when they dyno it the operator has to do a run, modify the map and load it, then do it again until its right. So it takes a bit longer. If it has a big advantage its that it isn't an add on piece like the PC III and it will allow you to modify nearly every possible parameter in the ECM's mapping program.
The only real down side to both of them is that once tuned nothing changes. If you do anything or something changes inside the engine you have to go through the entire dyno process and expense again.
Now if your at all interested in future engine upgrades then the TMax and the TTL may be a better option. I have a TMax w/Autotune in my bike and like the way that it self adjusts to maintain the proper AF ratio over the full rpm range even if the map I put in isn't exactly right. Even though I don't have any immediate plans for major internal engine work. I like to keep my options open. Besides I got mine for only a little more than the cost of a SERT, and that was just too good a deal to pass up.
That being said most of the tuners mentioned above will do an acceptable job.
If you don't have any plans for future engine upgrades like cams, head work or bigger cylinder/pistons a TMax w/Autotune or a TTS is probably a bit like using a sledge hammer to sway a fly, its overkill.
For the average rider who has no plans for internal engine upgrades and just wants to cool his engine while getting a bit more performance with a stage 1 kit. I would suggest you go with a PC III. Its relatively easy to tune, in fact many of the dealer shops have dyno's that will plug directly into the PC III and program it on the fly.
The SERT is also a good way to go, but its slightly handicapped in that when they dyno it the operator has to do a run, modify the map and load it, then do it again until its right. So it takes a bit longer. If it has a big advantage its that it isn't an add on piece like the PC III and it will allow you to modify nearly every possible parameter in the ECM's mapping program.
The only real down side to both of them is that once tuned nothing changes. If you do anything or something changes inside the engine you have to go through the entire dyno process and expense again.
Now if your at all interested in future engine upgrades then the TMax and the TTL may be a better option. I have a TMax w/Autotune in my bike and like the way that it self adjusts to maintain the proper AF ratio over the full rpm range even if the map I put in isn't exactly right. Even though I don't have any immediate plans for major internal engine work. I like to keep my options open. Besides I got mine for only a little more than the cost of a SERT, and that was just too good a deal to pass up.
#16
12-17-2008, 11:32 PM
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So, what's this dealer download for $150 that I've read about? Does this not take the place of a tuner for a basic Stage 1? I thought I could just get that and be done with it? I had a Power Commander on my GSXR1000, so I could go that route again if I need to. Guess I have some more reading and research to do. I don't know if I even want to change the intake yet.
#17
12-17-2008, 11:53 PM
May our Moderator Rest in Peace
The stage 1 upgrade is kind of an industry standard and the parts makers try very hard to make items that fit a set of requirments so all of them are making different items to do the same thing. Some are better than others at it so there is always going to be minor variations within the spec.
So a dealer will use his in house version of the SERT to download what is basically a 'universal' map that works for all of the stage 1 setups, be they Harley parts or aftermarket. Its not perfect, biut is an option and more then sufficent for the casual rider.
For the all out performance nuts among us, its probably a waste of time and the money might be better spent on a SERT which BTW has the same stage 1 map on the CD that comes with it..
So a dealer will use his in house version of the SERT to download what is basically a 'universal' map that works for all of the stage 1 setups, be they Harley parts or aftermarket. Its not perfect, biut is an option and more then sufficent for the casual rider.
For the all out performance nuts among us, its probably a waste of time and the money might be better spent on a SERT which BTW has the same stage 1 map on the CD that comes with it..
#18
12-18-2008, 01:10 AM
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#19
12-18-2008, 01:39 AM
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#20
12-18-2008, 03:08 AM
My opinion is that the TMax is worth every penny. If all you are going to do is air cleaner and exhaust upgrade, the TMax price may be a bit much. The nice thing about the Tmax w/Autotune is that you can change the maps yourself and the wideband o2's take care of the rest. That BS about the base map having to be very close is just that, BS. I bought my TMax soon after they first came out and they did not have that many maps for them yet (a couple hundred). They have many more now and they told me a few weeks ago to load the #401 map on mine and see if I like it any better. The only reason I have not done it yet is that it runs great. The base map that is currently in it was for a dyna w/stage I A/C and a 2-into-1 V&H pro-pipe. Mine is a Softail with BS StageII A/C and V&H BSS. When I first installed it, it would pop quite a bit on down shifts or quick throttle closings. that all went away within 200 miles. You can (and will) plug your bike into your computer and see everything going on in your engine. You can adjust an incredible number of variables and even set it up so that at cruise speeds it will run a bit leaner for better mileage. Take a look at the site and give them a call if you have more questions.
http://www.thunder-max.com/
I had a PCIII on my 05 and it worked well with the "canned" map but I can't see going backwards in tech by eliminating the O2's. The TMax w/autotune completely replaces your stock computer and narrow band o2's. It is also very easy to install.
I love my V&H BSS. I had a set on my 05 also. Power production is most definitely not a problem with these pipes. They have a "power chamber" that connects the pipes that is virtually invisible. This helps them act more like a 2-into-1 pipe instead of 2-into-2. My 05 was fast (stock internally with A/C, pipes, pcIII) and would bury the speedo with the stock 5800 rev limit,
and my 07 is faster (still stock internally, TMax w/autotune, pipes, Big Sucker Stage II). My buddy has a stock 07 train and I can run from him while short shifting...LOL Just in case you did not notice....if you buy the Stage II Big Sucker, you need the large cover. A stock 8" from an Evo will work or you can buy one of a thousand or so different ones on the web. You can also make your own cover from flat plate or whatever your creative mind can come up with. The one you see on my bike in the pic is one that I made pretty quick. I didn't do any sanding between coats of paint on the outer cover and it shows. the inner ring is flat black and I riveted them together. I am in the process of making one that's more to my liking. If you are staying Stage I on your motor, just get the Stage I A/C.
One thing I can say to stay away from is the Terry Components Terminal Velocity set-up. My buddy just spent some more money to replace his with a TMax w/autotune. It was an expensive lesson.
Good luck.
One last thing....NO DYNO TUNE NEEDED!!!
http://www.thunder-max.com/
I had a PCIII on my 05 and it worked well with the "canned" map but I can't see going backwards in tech by eliminating the O2's. The TMax w/autotune completely replaces your stock computer and narrow band o2's. It is also very easy to install.
I love my V&H BSS. I had a set on my 05 also. Power production is most definitely not a problem with these pipes. They have a "power chamber" that connects the pipes that is virtually invisible. This helps them act more like a 2-into-1 pipe instead of 2-into-2. My 05 was fast (stock internally with A/C, pipes, pcIII) and would bury the speedo with the stock 5800 rev limit,
and my 07 is faster (still stock internally, TMax w/autotune, pipes, Big Sucker Stage II). My buddy has a stock 07 train and I can run from him while short shifting...LOL Just in case you did not notice....if you buy the Stage II Big Sucker, you need the large cover. A stock 8" from an Evo will work or you can buy one of a thousand or so different ones on the web. You can also make your own cover from flat plate or whatever your creative mind can come up with. The one you see on my bike in the pic is one that I made pretty quick. I didn't do any sanding between coats of paint on the outer cover and it shows. the inner ring is flat black and I riveted them together. I am in the process of making one that's more to my liking. If you are staying Stage I on your motor, just get the Stage I A/C.
One thing I can say to stay away from is the Terry Components Terminal Velocity set-up. My buddy just spent some more money to replace his with a TMax w/autotune. It was an expensive lesson.
Good luck.
One last thing....NO DYNO TUNE NEEDED!!!