Heat issue - XiED - INFORMATION
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03-27-2009, 10:37 AM
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Heat issue - XiED - INFORMATION
Here is the conversation that I've had with the guys at NightRider.com about their XiED. Evidently they have some other great things up their sleeves that we will be seeing soon.
My original message to NightRider.com:
I am looking to change from stock to Hooker Trouble Makers and a Stage 1 air cleaner and some sort of fuel management on my 2007 FXSTB (Night Train). I am looking to have the bike run cooler as well which is what I like about XiED. Getting the HD stage 1 flash voids the warrenty on the Hooker pipes so that is not an option.
Which would I order...the XiED or the X14iED? If I run either of the 2 is there any need for a Power Commander or any of those other systems? I dont plan to ever tune this on my own. Is there a certain Air Cleaner kit that you guys recommend for best results?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan;
The XiED's would be the preferred upgrde for an 07 Softail.
If you are not an aggressive rider or don't care about what a dyno sheet says you get at wide open throttle, there is little reason for anything other than the XiED. You can't ride a dyno sheet (you don't ride your bike at 100% throttle). IED's are effective under 4000RPM and under 40% throttle in closed loop ECM operation, which is about 95% of where the average rider spends his time on the bike.
I actually recommend riders just replace the OEM filter element with the K&N replacement element. You can put a couple of 1/2" holes in the bottom of the black plastic backing to get some extra air flow, but that is all you need. This saves you money and provides all the benefit you need for a bike like yours.
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What benefit would I get from the Arlen Ness Big Sucker over just replacing the OEM filter and drilling the holes?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you recommend Hooker Trouble Makers, replace OEM filter with K&N Filter with 1/2" holes drilled in the plastic and the XiED? Does this void any warranty?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mufflers are a very personal choice. Hooker has been a reasonable choice for years, just like several other well thought of companies.
For the air cleaner and warranty, Don't drill the holes, just put the K&N replacement filter. The holes are optional if you are HP junkie. For a Stage 1 bike, the filter element by itself is about all you need.
Up to 75-80HP/ the OEM air box is going to be fine.
The Big Sucker will alter the sound of the bike, but really isn't going to add any signficant power to the bike. You might get 1-2HP at wide open throttle, but under normal riding, no noticable difference.
When making changes like the Big Sucker, if it is for looks or sound, by all means "go for it", but as far as real improvements in power, the changes are minor. Yes you can see them on a dyno. But you don't ride a dyno sheet and you are not going to impress anyone with 75HP. So "Looks" are a valid reason to change. Power is not a good reason. That is why I recommend the K&N with holes in the backing plate.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have found a Screaming Eagle backplate and a K&N filter....should be a good combo. Will be ordering the XiED's soon...Can I get a discount for recommending you guys to some other fellow riders? I'm kidding....but they are all interested in how much cooler their bikes will run.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Expect to see 25-40 degrees lower under most conditions. Some riders report more, but I think they were being overly kind to me. Even 25-40 degrees is a big improvement when your leg used to feel like a slap of BBQ beef. But the HD engine is like a snake, it tends to follow the temperature of its surroundings. So your bike will still heat up, it will just be 5-20 minutes behind the stock bikes when the conditions that cause high heat occur and yours should always be a couple of "notches" cooler.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you shed some light on this? If I put the troublemakers on with the new air cleaner and filter will I be ok without the HD Stage 1 flash or XiED until I can get the XiED?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You will be fine. The closed loop ECM will sense the change in the fuel mixture after you change the pipes/ac. The ECM will start richening the mixture to get it back to the OEM 14.6:1 immediately. When you add the XiED's, the ECM is "fooled" into thinking the mixture is a little leaner again, so will start the richening process again. The XiED's offset the input voltage of the O2 sensors and the output voltage to the ECM. The resulting shift produces the richer AFR around 13.8:1, although the ECM still thinks it is controlling the engine to the OEM 14.6:1. By running the engine a couple of days without the XiED's and the new exhaust, then adding the XiED's, you actually end up with slightly better results. Just the nature of the way the ECM learns what the O2 sensors are seeing for fuel mixtures.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My buddy had new pipes and filter put on at the dealer and they told him that he would mess things up if he didnt get a fuel management system so he had them put one on. His bike isnt using the O2 bungs at all. Another guy I ride with had new pipes and filter put on at a different dealer and all they did was the Stage 1 flash. What happens if I put on the Troublemakers with the OEM filter and OEM O2 sensors with no flash or fuel management?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can put your Troublemakers on with the OEM filter. You can even put on a performance air cleaner kit if you wanted. Your engine will run just fine. There is nothing to worry about. No Flash is required, no fuel management. Harley's Stage 1 download can not change the fuel mixture because of Federal emissions regulations. The O2 sensor still controls the fuel mixture. That is a fact! The Dealers rhetoric is nothing more than a marketing ploy. The only issue is if they know it is bad information or not. Some Dealers know the true story, some do not. It is simply a matter of Dealers and their service departments understanding the EFI technology they have in the 07 and later bikes. What they told you is true for an 06 and earlier bike, but not the newer bikes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have offered me a lot of great information. I will be ordering the XiEDs soon and you will be getting a few more orders from this neck of the woods shortly after I'm sure. There are several guys around here complaining of High Heat issues on their 07 and 08's.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I try to educate and teach first. When riders understand more about their EFI and bikes, then they can make better decisions about what to do. I also like to challenge riders about their preconceived notions about what can and cannot be done with the new ECMs. Too many riders obsess about their dyno sheet, as if this is the only thing that is important. But few riders are going to spend more than 1% of their time at wide open throttle, the only time the dyno number come into play. The average rider spend 95% of this time under 4000RPM and under 40% throttle. So why are they so concerned about numbers that are essentially meaningless on a day to day basis? Because the HD industry has conditioned them to believe that you must rejet or remap to prevent damage to your engine.
Well technology has changed, but most Dealers, Shops, mechanics and riders either do not know about the new technology or choose to ignore it. Closed Loop ECM's make life easy for the average rider. I just show people how it can be done.
Wait till I start publishing some of our "recession tuning" information. I've come up with ways to add cams to bikes without having to pay for expensive dyno tuning, but still get very good power results. Just more ways of using the ECM to work for you rather than paying a Dealer or Shop $800-1000 for questionable tuning.
www.Nightrider.com
www.tuneyourharley.com
My original message to NightRider.com:
I am looking to change from stock to Hooker Trouble Makers and a Stage 1 air cleaner and some sort of fuel management on my 2007 FXSTB (Night Train). I am looking to have the bike run cooler as well which is what I like about XiED. Getting the HD stage 1 flash voids the warrenty on the Hooker pipes so that is not an option.
Which would I order...the XiED or the X14iED? If I run either of the 2 is there any need for a Power Commander or any of those other systems? I dont plan to ever tune this on my own. Is there a certain Air Cleaner kit that you guys recommend for best results?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan;
The XiED's would be the preferred upgrde for an 07 Softail.
If you are not an aggressive rider or don't care about what a dyno sheet says you get at wide open throttle, there is little reason for anything other than the XiED. You can't ride a dyno sheet (you don't ride your bike at 100% throttle). IED's are effective under 4000RPM and under 40% throttle in closed loop ECM operation, which is about 95% of where the average rider spends his time on the bike.
I actually recommend riders just replace the OEM filter element with the K&N replacement element. You can put a couple of 1/2" holes in the bottom of the black plastic backing to get some extra air flow, but that is all you need. This saves you money and provides all the benefit you need for a bike like yours.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What benefit would I get from the Arlen Ness Big Sucker over just replacing the OEM filter and drilling the holes?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you recommend Hooker Trouble Makers, replace OEM filter with K&N Filter with 1/2" holes drilled in the plastic and the XiED? Does this void any warranty?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mufflers are a very personal choice. Hooker has been a reasonable choice for years, just like several other well thought of companies.
For the air cleaner and warranty, Don't drill the holes, just put the K&N replacement filter. The holes are optional if you are HP junkie. For a Stage 1 bike, the filter element by itself is about all you need.
Up to 75-80HP/ the OEM air box is going to be fine.
The Big Sucker will alter the sound of the bike, but really isn't going to add any signficant power to the bike. You might get 1-2HP at wide open throttle, but under normal riding, no noticable difference.
When making changes like the Big Sucker, if it is for looks or sound, by all means "go for it", but as far as real improvements in power, the changes are minor. Yes you can see them on a dyno. But you don't ride a dyno sheet and you are not going to impress anyone with 75HP. So "Looks" are a valid reason to change. Power is not a good reason. That is why I recommend the K&N with holes in the backing plate.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have found a Screaming Eagle backplate and a K&N filter....should be a good combo. Will be ordering the XiED's soon...Can I get a discount for recommending you guys to some other fellow riders? I'm kidding....but they are all interested in how much cooler their bikes will run.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Expect to see 25-40 degrees lower under most conditions. Some riders report more, but I think they were being overly kind to me. Even 25-40 degrees is a big improvement when your leg used to feel like a slap of BBQ beef. But the HD engine is like a snake, it tends to follow the temperature of its surroundings. So your bike will still heat up, it will just be 5-20 minutes behind the stock bikes when the conditions that cause high heat occur and yours should always be a couple of "notches" cooler.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you shed some light on this? If I put the troublemakers on with the new air cleaner and filter will I be ok without the HD Stage 1 flash or XiED until I can get the XiED?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You will be fine. The closed loop ECM will sense the change in the fuel mixture after you change the pipes/ac. The ECM will start richening the mixture to get it back to the OEM 14.6:1 immediately. When you add the XiED's, the ECM is "fooled" into thinking the mixture is a little leaner again, so will start the richening process again. The XiED's offset the input voltage of the O2 sensors and the output voltage to the ECM. The resulting shift produces the richer AFR around 13.8:1, although the ECM still thinks it is controlling the engine to the OEM 14.6:1. By running the engine a couple of days without the XiED's and the new exhaust, then adding the XiED's, you actually end up with slightly better results. Just the nature of the way the ECM learns what the O2 sensors are seeing for fuel mixtures.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My buddy had new pipes and filter put on at the dealer and they told him that he would mess things up if he didnt get a fuel management system so he had them put one on. His bike isnt using the O2 bungs at all. Another guy I ride with had new pipes and filter put on at a different dealer and all they did was the Stage 1 flash. What happens if I put on the Troublemakers with the OEM filter and OEM O2 sensors with no flash or fuel management?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can put your Troublemakers on with the OEM filter. You can even put on a performance air cleaner kit if you wanted. Your engine will run just fine. There is nothing to worry about. No Flash is required, no fuel management. Harley's Stage 1 download can not change the fuel mixture because of Federal emissions regulations. The O2 sensor still controls the fuel mixture. That is a fact! The Dealers rhetoric is nothing more than a marketing ploy. The only issue is if they know it is bad information or not. Some Dealers know the true story, some do not. It is simply a matter of Dealers and their service departments understanding the EFI technology they have in the 07 and later bikes. What they told you is true for an 06 and earlier bike, but not the newer bikes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have offered me a lot of great information. I will be ordering the XiEDs soon and you will be getting a few more orders from this neck of the woods shortly after I'm sure. There are several guys around here complaining of High Heat issues on their 07 and 08's.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I try to educate and teach first. When riders understand more about their EFI and bikes, then they can make better decisions about what to do. I also like to challenge riders about their preconceived notions about what can and cannot be done with the new ECMs. Too many riders obsess about their dyno sheet, as if this is the only thing that is important. But few riders are going to spend more than 1% of their time at wide open throttle, the only time the dyno number come into play. The average rider spend 95% of this time under 4000RPM and under 40% throttle. So why are they so concerned about numbers that are essentially meaningless on a day to day basis? Because the HD industry has conditioned them to believe that you must rejet or remap to prevent damage to your engine.
Well technology has changed, but most Dealers, Shops, mechanics and riders either do not know about the new technology or choose to ignore it. Closed Loop ECM's make life easy for the average rider. I just show people how it can be done.
Wait till I start publishing some of our "recession tuning" information. I've come up with ways to add cams to bikes without having to pay for expensive dyno tuning, but still get very good power results. Just more ways of using the ECM to work for you rather than paying a Dealer or Shop $800-1000 for questionable tuning.
www.Nightrider.com
www.tuneyourharley.com
#7
03-27-2009, 04:21 PM
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#8
03-27-2009, 04:36 PM
Join Date: Mar 2008
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#9
03-27-2009, 05:25 PM
Elite HDF Member
He does his homework and has a quality product. They do work and he tests them all the time. I had mine all last year and they work great. Everything that was said is true, the ecm learns. The engine temps are lower with the XIEDS than without. There has been some interesting articles in AIM about the SE110 and the heat issue causing problems with the 110 ci engines. I installed mine to prevent excessive heat and thru experence shows me that XIEDS work as people have been doing this for years in cars where they have had EFI since the '80s.
Great info and thanks SD Nightrain for printing it out so everyone can read it. No, I have nothing to do with Nightrider other than just using their product.
Great info and thanks SD Nightrain for printing it out so everyone can read it. No, I have nothing to do with Nightrider other than just using their product.
