Your brain hurts because Warp is a moron. Don't listen to anything he says.

So Warp, on the NOS topic, you think that NOS being injected increases horsepower? You do know that NOS causes the intake charge to be super cooled, ALLOWING , more fuel to be dumped into the cylinder, hence larger combustion right?

Ever seen an automotive NOS setup that only had a Nitrous solenoid? No you haven't, because they have a Fuel solenoid as well. Nitrous alone does absolutely nothing.

More fuel, denser air = more power.

And current engines make a lot of HP because of a 20:1 fuel ratio right? Lol.....

You know why they make more power than before? Aluminum blocks, heads, etc. Hydraulic Roller Cams are the norm, shaft rocker arms, full roller bearings, lightweight rotating assemblies, etc. etc. that is why they make more power now, technology.

I am done debating because you are an idiot.

 

He is right. I have a 2010 and did exhaust and AC with no mapping and it runs great. 4 wire O2 sensors can adjust for stage 1 changes. Save your money. I have no decal pop or anything and it runs a lot better. Been 3 years and no problems and I noticed a boost in midrange torque right away.

 

Sorry, but you're a little off. Air is about 20% oxygen. Nitrous oxide is about 36% oxygen. There is benefit from cooling the intake charge to make it more dense, but if cooling alone was the only benefit, we could accomplish that by injecting liquid carbon dioxide.
However, CO2 doesn't contain any usable oxygen, hence the preference for nitrous oxide, which contains even more usable oxygen than air.

I'm not exactly a stranger to this stuff. I've lost count, but I've put together at least five nitrous oxide injected vehicles, and did a little work on a prototype which used no atmospheric air at all, only nitrous oxide for oxygen, and nearly unlimited boost pressure (easily up to around 1000 psi from the bottle pressure).

It might be worth thinking about that a little more.
My goal isn't to violate your existing beliefs so abruptly and strongly that you go into a name-calling tizzy, but to educate. Perhaps I haven't been doing an ideal job at that, messing with "old school" rules, and "folklore" at a higher rate than can be accepted by some here.

Most of this stuff is quite well accepted on the more high-tech engine forums, so I probably didn't do a very good job, by failing to anticipate that it would provoke something close to hate from a few people on a Harley forum.

"Goll-dang-it, any intelligent and sane person knows that the earth is flat, so anyone who thinks it's round should be tarred and feathered, then executed."

Heck, I can deal with thinking like that, and still try to move things forward.

 

This i do know, I had a Stage 1 AC with V&H slipons on my bike for 2 years using just a factory upgraded map and it ran well with no decel pop at all getting 47mpg, but it didn't have that pull that i thought the motor should have so i installed a ThunderMax, cams, and had it dyno tuned by a very good tuner guy and OMG. Did those changes ever wake my motor up. It now has some awesome pull throughout the entire rpm range and the grunt is unbelieveable compared to before doing this work. Was it work it? HELL YA and i'd do it again sooner had i known it would be this much better. Yes i lost some fuel mileage as i'm now at around 41mpg but the added power and cooler running motor which was extremely noticeable right away, was worth the sacrifices. Any motor head knows it takes fuel to make horsepower. It's made so much difference in my bike that i just can't understand why people don't figure this out in their bikes. I don't claim to be a harley expert, but i have pretty much had some sort of bike all my life and know what a good running motor is like and if i buy another one, i'll do these things to it right away instead of just waiting to figure it out down the road cause i now know the secret. Don't tell anyone...........

 

Great news. But increasing performance doesn't always mean a loss of mpg. When I bought my bike, I had the dealership put the AC and pipes on it, and their "stage 1" tune via the SEPST which I all bought together. I got 45mpg (British gallons) out of it like that. Afterwards, I tuned it so that it run slighter richer in cruise (14.2 versus 14.6), and reduced the cruise region so that as soon as I get on the throttle or over 3k rpm, the AFR drops to low 13.x. Now I get much better performance, but 55-60mpg as well. Win-win.

 

This past summer I must have talked to about half a dozen motor-heads and about half suggested to first try new slip-ons and new AC (or removing the back-half of existing AC cover) and the other suggested those mods and a tune. After reading this thread I think I am more confused than ever, but is interesting nevertheless.

Coming from the old-school of "if it's not broke don't fix it" I'll likely leave my stock '09 CrossBones the way it is, for this year anyway. Honestly, it runs and sounds great, and I can blast up steep mountain grades with great power.

The premise of getting even more performance out of the motor appeals to me, but aren't Stage 1 upgrades are really designed for those who want louder pipes? How much increased performance are we talking about with just new pipes and increased air flow AC - is it even a measureable increase in HP?

 

Great question!

With a good (not the best) Stage 1, which includes-

Free Flowing Air Cleaner
Free Flowing Pipes
A modification to the Tune in the ECM via a Flash Tuner

You can expect a substantial, immediately feel the difference when you twist the throttle, increase in Torque. (we never pay much attention to horsepower. Even though the Horsepower #'s do increase, what you feel when you accelerate is Torque)

Anywhere from 12-20% increase.

Here is a dyno chart from a middle of the road full Stage 1 upgrade.

 

Adding a Stage 1 a/cleaner and slip on exhaust, you will run hotter. I speak from experiance. A cheap way to go is the slipons, XIED's, Syn oil and a Crotch cooler heat deflector. You gain some performance and not increase the heat to the rider.

 

Do you have the AFR graph as well?

 

Thanks for showing the graph, DK. The increase in torque is noticeable with the stage 1 upgrade that includes the tune. I am wondering what the graph would look like without the tune? Are there any downsides to the stage 1 with tune, such as hotter running engine, less mpg, engine wear, etc?

As I think about my style of riding which includes traveling up some steep mountain inclines - there is some momentary hesitation as I up-shift with my stock setup under that condition - I can relate to the "more torque" upon twisting the throttle explanation - it would be nice to have that extra power. As with all things mechanical, it becomes a matter of finding a shop that can do this right the first time, and not screw it up so that I have to make return trips to have things put back or "fixed." As one HD technician with over 15 years of experience keeps telling me "high performance means high performance problems." I definitely want to avoid that, although I don't think stage 1 is really high performance.