WOT map looks pretty good but partial throttle is needs more timing by 3-8 degrees.. Post your map and we can compare it to a newer map..

 

Okay...give this a whirl:

 

Well I was wrong about picking a map out.. Most of them don't have much more timing at partial throttle than yours.. Running a 96 with the wood 555 cam is going to need more partial throttle timing than even what the Tmax maps have..

I've taken your map and an copied the last map I had on a Gen 2 for my 103 EGC.. This bike is running quality ported heads with Woods 777 and CR set to 9.9 to 1..

White dots are from my bike and yellow yours.. You can see that at 2048 partial throttle I'm running 6 degrees more advance than you and at 29.6 TPS I've got as much a 14.. I can copy the timing maps into your map or you can do it for that mater.. I've included a copy of the map.. From what I see you started with the same updated AFR tables which are better.. Also notice you like the lower idle..







When you first posted that you were getting crappy mileage over on the other forum I stayed out as I believed you probably won't get good mileage with that cam... I suspect that you'll need to increase compression (and pull timing back out) to get the better mileage. With what you have, I suspect that you can pick up roughly 5 mpg but not much more.. The problem is that there isn't much open road in Japan.. If you can find some the bike might get 40.. You can continue to lean things out in the current map but I would not use D6s in that bike.. IMO the reason why the plugs look black is not heat range but too slow timing.. The AFR values you have should give a clean plug on the DPR7s.. I run champion RA6HCs which are equivalent to the DPR8s and they are a little cool but a quite bit cleaner than the plugs you showed..

One funny issue I found was that the Injector timing is set to 364.. That is likely killing some of your mileage.. The map that superseded your current map had it set to 392 which is a better timing for stock injectors..

Load the map into the software for viewing only and check the timing / afr differences.. Don't use this map but you can copy the ignition timing to yours if you want to try it.. You might want to change injector timing back to 392.. Someone with the advanced user license can do it.. You can request the adv user license from Thunderheart.. It's free..

 

Thank you for taking the time to do that for me. I will definitely have a look and have downloaded your file for reference and perhaps use of your timing tables.

Okay, so what (besides the ignition timing fix) would you suggest to fix the compression issue you see? Better cam (which one)? Big bore kit? Going back to stock?

The thing is, I was getting 40-45mpg before the cam change, even in Japan, and even after I installed the cam, there wasn't a noticeable difference. It just sort of fell of gradually thereafter. If it happened suddenly, yeah, I would blame the cam, but I lost the mpg gradually, little by little over the last 5 years, until I'm where I'm at now - 30mpg avg.

 

So you are saying the deterioration was slow.. In what order did you had the cam, tuner, the pipe, the air cleaner? All done at once then after getting 40-45 mpg, it slowly dropped to 38 then 36 then 34 until it became 30? This was over a period of how many miles? Have you changed the 02 sensors yet? If you reload the original map does the mileage return?

As far as what to do to increase compression, you could go to a cam with an earlier intake close like the 48 even back to stock.. The big bore kit will increase compression and help to some extent but you'll be making more power.. If you use it mileage will suffer. You should still do better than 30 mpg..

There was discussion about exhaust leaks. Do you have them.. Something about catalytic converter in the aftermarket pipe?

 

Went back and looked at you first post.. One thing plugs don't look that good.. Make sure no exhaust leaks.

Try the timing.. With the timing off not all the fuel is being burned in the motor unburned 02 is reaching the sensors and the motor thinks it's lean.. Your sensors may be toast.

Come to think of it.. I'd probably start out with a new map... Say 894.. There are still tables we can't see in the maps. A fresh map would eliminate any issues..

 

Yeah, that's the way it seemed, anyway, tho I didn't document it, or anything. The stage one with V&H 2-2s and T-Max basically went on all at same time in 2009. The cam install came later in 2011. I reloaded an earlier version of my map a couple years ago and it helped for awhile, but it seemed like as the unit auto-tuned, it gradually fell off again and now it's REALLY bad. Again, I didn't really document anything until now. I could have fallen off a lot quicker, but I don't think so...
I've put about 18,000km on the bike since I installed the cam. I have not replaced the 02 sensors as of yet.
It seems I have never gotten the gas mileage that I should be getting, even before the cam. I remember taking a tour with a buddy back in 2010. He was riding a carbed 2003 Ultra and commented that my gas mileage seemed to be bad and not as good as what he was getting. This was while I was still getting around 280 or so km out of a tank. Now I only get 150 to 180. 200, probably, if I run it close to dry, but I dare not, since I have a tank lift on it...

Another thing, the Wood 555 cam was really popular when it first came out. A lot of guys on here installed them, but I don't see anybody else with them complaining about their MPG. Looks like the 222 cam would have been a better choice as a bolt-in. Same lift, but timing looks a lil closer to stock w/intake close at 34. But the 222 didn't come out until a year or two after I installed mine...

If I cannot get much mileage back without making power suffer, and nothing is found to be wrong with the unit (although it's old), I may just pull the trigger on the FM 107. If I'm going to get bad miieage, I might as well be getting the power to match, am I right? LOL
I'll also see if Jamie is willing to give me a deal on the 107 kit plus updated tuner...

Yes, but only very slightly after everything heats up and expands. I'm trying to get everything closed up dry, before pulling out the copper silicone or welding torch.

Will replace the plugs soon, but q1 suggested something a little hotter, not colder...
We will also be putting in a fresh map, soon, I think. q1 sure does know how to keep a guy in suspense. LOL. I am learning a lot from the process, while doing a lot of reading on my own about this stuff. I still don't know how you can look at the timing tables and know how they should look based on my build. It reminds me of that guys comment from the Matrix who said when he looks at code he sees images (blonde, red-head), instead of the code itself.
While I get how EFI works, and I can follow yours and q1's instructions, I still don't know why I'm doing some of it, and I still look at these maps and tables - especially the timing tables - and I might as well be looking at hieroglyphs.

Thanks again, man. I really appreciate you and q1 for taking the time to try and help me on this!

 

Couldn't open your file.




Smart Link software I'm using says it's up to date, tho. No updates available...

 

When you first showed up with the issue over HTT, I new there would be issues... Both Mayor and Ron gave you some suggestions and you moved on.. I stayed out of it since they seemed to have managed a getting a bandaid on a gunshot wound.

1. The woods 555 is not a bad cam but it needs compression. Over 10 to 1 with optimum being somewhere between 10.2 to 10.5 depending on the weight of the bike. The compression ratio on a stock 96 twin cam is about 9.22 to 1. You compression ratio is off by 1 full point..

2. Thundermax it a full time closed loop system. It samples the exhaust flow continuously for 02 to calculate AFR.. The problem is that if the sampling is bad, the AFR is going to wonder off.. Steve Cole (TTS) realizes this issue is real **** about O2 sensor placement of the narrow band sensors as a result. As it is TTS and the stock ECMs that run close loop only sample at light cruise.. The Tmax tries to get it all.. The issue is that when the timing is retarded from optimum, the fuel is still burning O2 as it exits the head and the Tmax sees the O2 adds fuel even tho fuel burn is rich.. I've bought 2 used tmaxs from guys that could not get them running.. In both cases the O2 sensors were covered in heavy black carbon. The problem was that many of the early Tmax maps did not run enough partial throttle timing and the tune at partial throttle wonder rich.. Heck Mayor (a compressionally challenged person) has that problem with his Road King. He sent me the maps.. Rear cylinder pulsewidth offsets railed rich.. Not enough partial throttle timing. Simple fix was to set the offsets to 0 and add timing.

3. The tuning of your bike is going to be tricky in it's current state since you've added the cam you cropped the CCP about 10 psi.. Cylinder pressure is what makes power. How hard the cylinder mixture squeezed before it's lit determines how fast it burns. Lower that squeeze pressure and you need to give the cylinder contents more time to burn (add timing). When running partial throttle the compression ratio is based on dynamic compression which is typically very low. It's even lower when the correct compression is low to start with which is the major part of your tuning problem.


Options.

1. You can still try to tune the bike.. I do think you can get some milage out of the current setup. I doubt you'll ever get 40 mpg unless you go to an open loop system using the stock ECM.. Next option.

2. you can try a flash tuner and have it professionally tuned. Will probably need to turn off closed loop. I doubt you'll even get close trying autotune with TTS or PV as the issues are the same. A dyno sniffs AFR further down the pipe will provide a better tune providing the operator knows what he's doing.. Trying to do this stuff yourself would be close to impossible. (IMO)

3. You can add compression and retune the bike. If you were to go to 107 you will add over 1 fill point of CR.. The rough CR of a 96 ci motor is about 9.2 to 1.. Make it a 107 should net about 10.3.

If you choose option 1, here is what I would do.. Install a set of new stock heat range plugs. Try the 894 map or even 843 map and see which one runs better. I would then partial throttle timing like in my map to bring the mileage up. If you want you can add a some to start like the map I tried to send you..

OK sorry about the map that one was for the Tmax Ituner software. I upgraded my EGC to a gen III.. You won't be able to load it into Smartlink..

Added the same map but from smartlink.

 

I am going with "option 1" at this point. I think that's where q1 is leading me to eventually.

Question about one of your comments above:
You said you don't think I'll ever be able to get 40mpg with my current setup. Is that because of the cam I chose, or because of my "legacy" T-max; or both? Would updating my T-Max to the latest version make a difference in mpg, do you think, or is it all in the map and how it's applied by whatever version unit I'm running?

I did not know that the T-max was entirely closed loop. I thought it was a hybrid system using closed loop during idle and cruise, and shifting to open loop under throttle load.

Another question (or few):
Do you think that my current T-Max would be okay for continuing fuel management (for the time being) if I upgraded to the 107 big bore, or do you recommend getting the latest version? Or do you recommend upgrading to the latest version of T-Max, anyway (as per above)? Is there a fuel management system that you recommend OVER T-Max, or that you think would work better for my purposes?

On a bit of a different matter, I noticed the other day that when I go into my T-Max Control Center, there is a message recommending that I run IAC-Auto. Does that mean I absolutely should? I just ran an Auto-Map (and haven't ridden yet since doing so). Should I clear learned off-sets and just run IAC-Auto anyway?




Also, it looks like I'm good to change the injector pulse to where I want it. The setting isn't grayed out or anything. Will the setting just not take unless I have the advanced user license?