Other Devices: Learning, FP3 and recommendations...
#1
08-23-2016, 01:22 PM
Learning, FP3 and recommendations...
Greetings,
Just got back from a 3 day romp through New England yesterday. This was on the heels of doing a cam install (Andrews 57H) and new tires (Pirelli Night Dragons) for my bike (2013 103ci Switchback). Prior to the trip, I had loaded in the base parameters for the FP3 (Dyna / 103 / V&H ProPipe / High Flow AC / Andrews 57H cams). During the trip, I had run the AutoTune feature. After riding all day on Day 1, and updating "Learned Values", I did the Final AutoTune that day. On Day 2, I started a new AutoTune session and as I updated "Learned Values", the bike seemed to be sputtering in low revs (1200rpm - 1800rpm) and then again (2000rpm - 2300rpm) or so. I wound up reloading in the base map for a less sputtery ride.
I looked at the various tables for Front Cylinder VE, Rear Cylinder VE and Air Fuel rations trying to learn about the settings and, hopefully someone can guide me on this, what are the optimal settings.
What does the abbreviation VE mean?
Some observations.....
Front Cylinder VE's (FCVE) values were generally lower than the Rear Cylinder VE's (RCVE) by about 10. If the FCVE was saying 76 or so, the RCVE was about 86 or so. In the rpm zones where there was sputtering, the FCVE values were sometimes as low as 54 in the lower throttle positions. The RCVE #'s were also a little lower in the sputter rpm zones, but had values of 65'ish. Can someone tell me, what the ideal VE values should be? I had manually boosted the below 65 FCVE values up to 65 or so, and this seemed to help.
Also, the exhaust smells very gassy. Any recommendations on adjusting values to clean this up?
Just got back from a 3 day romp through New England yesterday. This was on the heels of doing a cam install (Andrews 57H) and new tires (Pirelli Night Dragons) for my bike (2013 103ci Switchback). Prior to the trip, I had loaded in the base parameters for the FP3 (Dyna / 103 / V&H ProPipe / High Flow AC / Andrews 57H cams). During the trip, I had run the AutoTune feature. After riding all day on Day 1, and updating "Learned Values", I did the Final AutoTune that day. On Day 2, I started a new AutoTune session and as I updated "Learned Values", the bike seemed to be sputtering in low revs (1200rpm - 1800rpm) and then again (2000rpm - 2300rpm) or so. I wound up reloading in the base map for a less sputtery ride.
I looked at the various tables for Front Cylinder VE, Rear Cylinder VE and Air Fuel rations trying to learn about the settings and, hopefully someone can guide me on this, what are the optimal settings.
What does the abbreviation VE mean?
Some observations.....
Front Cylinder VE's (FCVE) values were generally lower than the Rear Cylinder VE's (RCVE) by about 10. If the FCVE was saying 76 or so, the RCVE was about 86 or so. In the rpm zones where there was sputtering, the FCVE values were sometimes as low as 54 in the lower throttle positions. The RCVE #'s were also a little lower in the sputter rpm zones, but had values of 65'ish. Can someone tell me, what the ideal VE values should be? I had manually boosted the below 65 FCVE values up to 65 or so, and this seemed to help.
Also, the exhaust smells very gassy. Any recommendations on adjusting values to clean this up?
#2
08-23-2016, 03:45 PM
Road Warrior
Oh dear, I'm having flashbacks.
If you don't know what VE means I would suggest you call V&H tech support first and ask their advice. Same build just didn't work for me at all. I don't think their cam settings were working properly.
No disrespect but the reason it didn't work goes way beyond what does VE mean.
If you don't know what VE means I would suggest you call V&H tech support first and ask their advice. Same build just didn't work for me at all. I don't think their cam settings were working properly.
No disrespect but the reason it didn't work goes way beyond what does VE mean.
#3
08-24-2016, 07:15 AM
Oh dear, I'm having flashbacks.
If you don't know what VE means I would suggest you call V&H tech support first and ask their advice. Same build just didn't work for me at all. I don't think their cam settings were working properly.
No disrespect but the reason it didn't work goes way beyond what does VE mean.
If you don't know what VE means I would suggest you call V&H tech support first and ask their advice. Same build just didn't work for me at all. I don't think their cam settings were working properly.
No disrespect but the reason it didn't work goes way beyond what does VE mean.
It sounds like you know what VE is. Would you mind sharing this knowledge? I did call V&H, and while the person I spoke with was very nice, all I got from them was to not even auto tune. Just load in the base map and leave it alone. Perhaps you could expand on what else beyond VE is involved? I am after all, trying to learn what all this "stuff" means.
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URGE (07-01-2017)
#4
08-24-2016, 10:04 AM
Simply put, VE is the ratio of air or gas-air mixture drawn into the cylinder of an internal-combustion engine to the volumetric displacement of the piston. It can be affected by a number of things such cam timing, exhaust restrictions, etc. It is a value used in fueling calculations.
I would suggest you download something like the TTS mastertune guide or maybe one from Powervision, etc and start reading.
I would suggest you download something like the TTS mastertune guide or maybe one from Powervision, etc and start reading.
The following users liked this post:
rauchman (08-25-2016)
#5
08-24-2016, 11:32 AM
Road Warrior
Well maybe Chris from V&H could offer an update on the state of the FP3's development but most everyone on here keeps saying that there is no one map fits everyone even if you do have the same parts build.
I've changed a baffle in an exhaust and seen that make significant differences to the VE tables so I for one do not believe for an instant that a number of exhausts are going to be the same as a V&H model.
The change notes for the FP3 a while back added..."In previous generations of the FP3 application and support, customers would have to contact customer service to have their map manually modified for aftermarket camshafts. We have now made it even easier to make adjustments for cams. FP3 has now incorporated more than 50 different aftermarket cams in the View/Edit maps area. All customers have to do is select the desired camshaft, and flash the change into the ECM. This will now synchronize the T/MAP sensor for proper operation with the aftermarket cam. It is recommended that after this change is applied, to run an AutoTune Session to further improve the map."
This post seems to be the last one I can find from Chris on FP3 and camshafts (as well as other things ...click the link to read the whole thread)
He is adamant that cams work as do their maps is why I suggest asking them what has gone wrong with your drivability and/or why autotune isn't working ...and their support guys are saying not to use it?!
Something might have been fixed by now but I don't think the cam settings (T/MAP they call it) were right for the 57H. And I don't think anyone in here will say that a map for one cam will work for a different cam (e.g. stock vs 57H) so how on earth the tech said not to bother auto tuning ...?!?
The other thing that changes significantly with cams is the EGR/CDE ...that made a big difference for my drivability
Best advice is read as many posts in the forum here as possible, as well as the TTS guide (shame on the rest of the manufacturers for not having their own.
FP3 tells you it was designed to be really easy to use ...the problem is, tuning IS NOT EASY and there is not a lot of help from them in that regard
I've changed a baffle in an exhaust and seen that make significant differences to the VE tables so I for one do not believe for an instant that a number of exhausts are going to be the same as a V&H model.
The change notes for the FP3 a while back added..."In previous generations of the FP3 application and support, customers would have to contact customer service to have their map manually modified for aftermarket camshafts. We have now made it even easier to make adjustments for cams. FP3 has now incorporated more than 50 different aftermarket cams in the View/Edit maps area. All customers have to do is select the desired camshaft, and flash the change into the ECM. This will now synchronize the T/MAP sensor for proper operation with the aftermarket cam. It is recommended that after this change is applied, to run an AutoTune Session to further improve the map."
This post seems to be the last one I can find from Chris on FP3 and camshafts (as well as other things ...click the link to read the whole thread)
...snip...
The FP3 has a much simpler GUI that the majority of people can pick up, and tune their bike in without the use of any other equipment, (with the exception of a smartphone of course). We have a database of over 10,000 maps ranging from completely bone stock to intake, exhaust and more. We have 5 Eddy Current dynos that we use to create maps for all the specific setups and calibrations. On top of the dyno testing, we also do a specific street test to ensure optimal ride-ability and economy. Suffice to say, that the FP3 is NOT a simple Stage 1 replacement device. But a device that can grow with your bike's build.
In the next update we will be offering a new feature for you to select your camshaft from a list of over 50+ aftermarket cams. This will make the adjustments for your map for IVO and IVC. Then run the AutoTune to smooth the rest of the map over. You can change displacement, injector flow rating and more for the more intense setups.
Another feature that is commonly overlooked, (and the OP has direct experience with as well) is our Customer Service area. We can make specific adjustments to your map and send it right back to your phone, all remotely.
The FP3 has a much simpler GUI that the majority of people can pick up, and tune their bike in without the use of any other equipment, (with the exception of a smartphone of course). We have a database of over 10,000 maps ranging from completely bone stock to intake, exhaust and more. We have 5 Eddy Current dynos that we use to create maps for all the specific setups and calibrations. On top of the dyno testing, we also do a specific street test to ensure optimal ride-ability and economy. Suffice to say, that the FP3 is NOT a simple Stage 1 replacement device. But a device that can grow with your bike's build.
In the next update we will be offering a new feature for you to select your camshaft from a list of over 50+ aftermarket cams. This will make the adjustments for your map for IVO and IVC. Then run the AutoTune to smooth the rest of the map over. You can change displacement, injector flow rating and more for the more intense setups.
Another feature that is commonly overlooked, (and the OP has direct experience with as well) is our Customer Service area. We can make specific adjustments to your map and send it right back to your phone, all remotely.
Something might have been fixed by now but I don't think the cam settings (T/MAP they call it) were right for the 57H. And I don't think anyone in here will say that a map for one cam will work for a different cam (e.g. stock vs 57H) so how on earth the tech said not to bother auto tuning ...?!?
The other thing that changes significantly with cams is the EGR/CDE ...that made a big difference for my drivability
Best advice is read as many posts in the forum here as possible, as well as the TTS guide (shame on the rest of the manufacturers for not having their own.
FP3 tells you it was designed to be really easy to use ...the problem is, tuning IS NOT EASY and there is not a lot of help from them in that regard
The following users liked this post:
rauchman (08-25-2016)
#6
08-25-2016, 08:12 AM
Simply put, VE is the ratio of air or gas-air mixture drawn into the cylinder of an internal-combustion engine to the volumetric displacement of the piston. It can be affected by a number of things such cam timing, exhaust restrictions, etc. It is a value used in fueling calculations.
I would suggest you download something like the TTS mastertune guide or maybe one from Powervision, etc and start reading.
I would suggest you download something like the TTS mastertune guide or maybe one from Powervision, etc and start reading.
#7
08-27-2016, 10:41 AM
Road Warrior
VE is Volumetric Efficiency which is the percentage of the actual displacement of a cylinder when the piston is at the bottom of its stroke and affects the amount of fuel that is added to the air based on AFR, Air Fuel Ratio. At 100% VE you'll have an accurate AFR based on the setting. Rarely is the volume of air that fills the cylinder at 100% though. It usually is less than what the atmospheric pressure is which is considered vacuum. If the injector introduces a 14.4:1 ratio of fuel at a kPa (manifold absolute pressure) that's less than 100% of the maximum volume of the cylinder, it'll be way too rich. Basically, if the volume of air in the cylinder is 50% (VE) of its capacity, the fuel injector will inject 50% of the AFR of what it would at 100% VE.
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