Built the best engine cooling system...again
#1
12-07-2011, 04:51 PM
Built the best engine cooling system...again
First a shout out to 2black1’s, who published the parade fan test data and really motivated me to change direction in my cooling pursuit. Before any of the manufactured fan assist systems were marketed, I built a 10 row Jagg based fan assist system that still exceeds the cooling potential of anything you can purchase today. After running this system for 20K miles over 4 riding seasons, and tweaking it along the way, I realized that I would not break my benchmark of 200F oil in the summer on my stock lean tune. I started thinking that attacking the heat on two fronts would be the best approach, by running the oil cooler and the parade fan.
So anyway back in my garage early this summer I had a decent beer buzz on, and I’m sitting there staring at a TC head I had on the bench, when I acknowledged the channel that runs all the way through the head from side to side, and then on closer inspection there is another channel that runs front to back, and the two cross in the middle. So I start pondering these channels that run through the heads and how they affect cooling, when it hits me that maybe just a little bit of air directed through these channels could have a great impact on cooling.
After several different fans and temporary mounts to test the theory, I concluded that yes this is a highly viable pursuit. I ordered my materials, and within just a few weeks I completed my prototype. Much to my dismay, I saw a post a few weeks ago about a product called “Love Jugs”, which is very similar to my project. I couldn't find anything on the web about who makes them, but I hope they initiated the patent process, because I did. It was revealed by a new member with his first post, he purchased it at Daytona Biketoberfest this fall, and went on to describe it’s effectiveness with both fans each being more powerful than the individual Lenale and Harley parade fans: which is good right, maybe?
It will be difficult to convince the bigger is better crowd, but I now have a new theory that the size of the fan is not the limiting factor for cylinder head cooling but rather the cylinder head itself , by virtue of its fin design, surface area, and thermal transfer properties of the base metal, determines the rate at which heat can be dispersed. The head can only shed so much heat, at some point adding more air will not continue to improve cooling potential. I think the volume and force of air required to maximize cooling potential is far less than the parade fans in use today.
Having been working on my own very similar project, I can see immediately that the “Love Juggs” design is no doubt the most powerful cooling device going, in fact it is overkill by a long shot. I took a low power approach and focused a small amount of air on the area of greatest heat concentration. My prototype is pushing a whopping 23 CFM of air on each head and it does a very nice job at cooling with a total combined power draw of less than 1.4 amps. I got to ride in 80F ambient and my rear CHT never broke 265F, and my oil never broke 200F. If you don’t think that the rear CHT at 265F is not that impressive, consider that a lot of folks report oil temps that high, and higher. Granted these figures are preliminary findings and don’t really mean squat until fully tested, but I feel this is very promising.
I built this around the factory horn so you don’t have to relocate, and I kept the profile small so it’s not too intrusive, and I personally think it looks pretty damn good even if I did build it. I am going to go ahead and build another prototype slightly more powerful, just in case the summer heat overwhelms the original system. Almost forgot the key ingredient, the automatic switching system, the fan comes on automatically when two conditions are met, the rear CHT exceeds 250F (+/- 10 degrees after you factor thermal lag) and the bike is traveling below 35 MPH, once you accelerate above 35 it shuts off, with an added bonus of ignition off delay, which allows the fans to run for up to 2 minutes after shutdown. Most folks fully understand that as long as you’re moving your cooling, but the also underestimate just how fast temperature rises as soon a s you slow down or stop. Basically the moment you roll to a stop or hit slow traffic the fan automatically kicks on and prevents the motor from ever getting hot in the first place, as opposed to a manual switch that has to be turned on when the operator feels like the bike is hot
As with my oil temp goal, I needed a bench mark for optimum CHTs. I read a quote by Donny Petersen that just didn’t sound quite right, to paraphrase, Bob Woods said CHTs need to be kept at 210F or below to prevent detonation in a performance build. I called Mr. Woods to discuss this and he told me that 260-280F is very good and keeping CHTs below 260F is excellent. I honestly don’t understand why CHTs aren’t the industry standard for measuring temp on an air cooled Harley, besides there is already an OEM CHT sensor in the front head that provides temp input to the ECM. How hard would it be for Harley to offer a CHT gauge to display what’s already being measured? Sure there would be some initial shock value with the general public because the numbers would be a lot higher than the oil temp numbers that people are used to, but it wouldn’t take long to establish what “normal” CHTs should be.
I’m able to read front and rear CHTs and oil temp at several points in the system; my homemade monitoring station has allowed me to make a lot of new observations about cooling. It’s kinda cool to make new observations, but it’s also frustrating because nobody believes you unless the experts make the claim first. Anyway, now I definitely believe you need a two systems approach to achieve maximum cooling. Natural air flow across the cylinder heads and the oil cooler takes care of cooling at highway speeds when your motor is producing the most heat, and the fans on the oil cooler and heads take care of cooling when you are sitting still or moving slowly and the bike cant get rid of the heat. Honestly I’m thinking a fan assist oil cooler may not even be necessary with a head fan system like mine. The majority of the heat in the oil comes from the heads, keep the heads cooler and the oil stays cooler. I think this has a lot of potential to change the street performance game for Harleys, for those who aren’t too stubborn to embrace it.
Preliminary results:
Conditions; Stock lean tune, 80F Ambient temp, bike was previously warmed up, then about a 35 minutes ride at lunch cruising 65 MPH and below. (this is just one data set to demonstrate this does work, the project is still young and will require much more observation and data logging)
Stopped moving, engine running
ENG ON OT RCHT FCHT
+0 min 195 255 250
+1 min 194 260 250
+2 min 195 260 250
+3 min 195 260 253
+4 min 196 262 253
+5 min 196 262 260
IGN OFF
+1 min 193 255 255
+2 min 190 240 240
So anyway back in my garage early this summer I had a decent beer buzz on, and I’m sitting there staring at a TC head I had on the bench, when I acknowledged the channel that runs all the way through the head from side to side, and then on closer inspection there is another channel that runs front to back, and the two cross in the middle. So I start pondering these channels that run through the heads and how they affect cooling, when it hits me that maybe just a little bit of air directed through these channels could have a great impact on cooling.
After several different fans and temporary mounts to test the theory, I concluded that yes this is a highly viable pursuit. I ordered my materials, and within just a few weeks I completed my prototype. Much to my dismay, I saw a post a few weeks ago about a product called “Love Jugs”, which is very similar to my project. I couldn't find anything on the web about who makes them, but I hope they initiated the patent process, because I did. It was revealed by a new member with his first post, he purchased it at Daytona Biketoberfest this fall, and went on to describe it’s effectiveness with both fans each being more powerful than the individual Lenale and Harley parade fans: which is good right, maybe?
It will be difficult to convince the bigger is better crowd, but I now have a new theory that the size of the fan is not the limiting factor for cylinder head cooling but rather the cylinder head itself , by virtue of its fin design, surface area, and thermal transfer properties of the base metal, determines the rate at which heat can be dispersed. The head can only shed so much heat, at some point adding more air will not continue to improve cooling potential. I think the volume and force of air required to maximize cooling potential is far less than the parade fans in use today.
Having been working on my own very similar project, I can see immediately that the “Love Juggs” design is no doubt the most powerful cooling device going, in fact it is overkill by a long shot. I took a low power approach and focused a small amount of air on the area of greatest heat concentration. My prototype is pushing a whopping 23 CFM of air on each head and it does a very nice job at cooling with a total combined power draw of less than 1.4 amps. I got to ride in 80F ambient and my rear CHT never broke 265F, and my oil never broke 200F. If you don’t think that the rear CHT at 265F is not that impressive, consider that a lot of folks report oil temps that high, and higher. Granted these figures are preliminary findings and don’t really mean squat until fully tested, but I feel this is very promising.
I built this around the factory horn so you don’t have to relocate, and I kept the profile small so it’s not too intrusive, and I personally think it looks pretty damn good even if I did build it. I am going to go ahead and build another prototype slightly more powerful, just in case the summer heat overwhelms the original system. Almost forgot the key ingredient, the automatic switching system, the fan comes on automatically when two conditions are met, the rear CHT exceeds 250F (+/- 10 degrees after you factor thermal lag) and the bike is traveling below 35 MPH, once you accelerate above 35 it shuts off, with an added bonus of ignition off delay, which allows the fans to run for up to 2 minutes after shutdown. Most folks fully understand that as long as you’re moving your cooling, but the also underestimate just how fast temperature rises as soon a s you slow down or stop. Basically the moment you roll to a stop or hit slow traffic the fan automatically kicks on and prevents the motor from ever getting hot in the first place, as opposed to a manual switch that has to be turned on when the operator feels like the bike is hot
As with my oil temp goal, I needed a bench mark for optimum CHTs. I read a quote by Donny Petersen that just didn’t sound quite right, to paraphrase, Bob Woods said CHTs need to be kept at 210F or below to prevent detonation in a performance build. I called Mr. Woods to discuss this and he told me that 260-280F is very good and keeping CHTs below 260F is excellent. I honestly don’t understand why CHTs aren’t the industry standard for measuring temp on an air cooled Harley, besides there is already an OEM CHT sensor in the front head that provides temp input to the ECM. How hard would it be for Harley to offer a CHT gauge to display what’s already being measured? Sure there would be some initial shock value with the general public because the numbers would be a lot higher than the oil temp numbers that people are used to, but it wouldn’t take long to establish what “normal” CHTs should be.
I’m able to read front and rear CHTs and oil temp at several points in the system; my homemade monitoring station has allowed me to make a lot of new observations about cooling. It’s kinda cool to make new observations, but it’s also frustrating because nobody believes you unless the experts make the claim first. Anyway, now I definitely believe you need a two systems approach to achieve maximum cooling. Natural air flow across the cylinder heads and the oil cooler takes care of cooling at highway speeds when your motor is producing the most heat, and the fans on the oil cooler and heads take care of cooling when you are sitting still or moving slowly and the bike cant get rid of the heat. Honestly I’m thinking a fan assist oil cooler may not even be necessary with a head fan system like mine. The majority of the heat in the oil comes from the heads, keep the heads cooler and the oil stays cooler. I think this has a lot of potential to change the street performance game for Harleys, for those who aren’t too stubborn to embrace it.
Preliminary results:
Conditions; Stock lean tune, 80F Ambient temp, bike was previously warmed up, then about a 35 minutes ride at lunch cruising 65 MPH and below. (this is just one data set to demonstrate this does work, the project is still young and will require much more observation and data logging)
Stopped moving, engine running
ENG ON OT RCHT FCHT
+0 min 195 255 250
+1 min 194 260 250
+2 min 195 260 250
+3 min 195 260 253
+4 min 196 262 253
+5 min 196 262 260
IGN OFF
+1 min 193 255 255
+2 min 190 240 240
#3
12-07-2011, 05:05 PM
#4
12-07-2011, 05:13 PM
AutoMeter ProLite gauge with 4 oil temp sensors and 2 CHTs, linked via micro rotary switch on the dash, can toggle between sensors on the fly.
#5
12-07-2011, 05:43 PM
Cool what down, oil, CHTs, EGT? Please quote the AFR value that you think would reduce something by 25 degrees. I chose the lean tune parameter as a challenge, anybody can throw a ridiculous amount of fuel at the heat issue.
#7
12-07-2011, 06:10 PM
Trending Topics
#9
12-07-2011, 07:10 PM
I salute your ingenuity, but if you look at 2black1s data using a single LeNale fan, his CHT's stabilized at 246 degrees with the fan running. I have been using the LeNale fan for 2 years, and even though it's mounted between the cylinders, the 180 CFM output does move air around the sides of the cylinders as well. I don't know if 2black1s is aware that his test data using the LeNale fan is being quoted on LeNale Engineering's Ebay site. Good luck though, and I'll be interested in seeing your final product.
DJK
LeNale Engineering Cooling fans have been independently tested. Test results have been published in various Harley Davidson Forums such as: https://www.hdforums.com/forum/touri...test-data.html
DJK
LeNale Engineering Cooling fans have been independently tested. Test results have been published in various Harley Davidson Forums such as: https://www.hdforums.com/forum/touri...test-data.html
#10
12-07-2011, 08:17 PM
I have a 120r in a bagger. If you need someone with a big block to test on, let me know.
The idea sounds correct to me.
Love Bugs looked like ***. But I really don't care what I hang on my bike. I only wash it twice a year as it is and buy NO chrome fo chrome's sake.
The idea sounds correct to me.
Love Bugs looked like ***. But I really don't care what I hang on my bike. I only wash it twice a year as it is and buy NO chrome fo chrome's sake.
Last edited by wurk_truk; 12-07-2011 at 08:44 PM.
