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  #321  
Old 01-12-2013, 05:17 PM
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fathog fathog is offline
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Originally Posted by GPHDXLC View Post
Well, I just got done installing mine.
I'm surprised how tight the chain is, it has no play at all now. The springs are very stiff and it was hard to compress the shoe down. I had to put it in a vice to compress it down to put the zip ties around them for the install. I made sure the springs was set in to the shoe properly.
I didn't use any shims and I only have 1/4" of compression left from the bottom of the shoe to the top of the guideplate. I started my bike up for just a bit to see if the shoe and chain moved up and down but they don't. I'm no expert but to me it looks like the shoe is close to bottoming out.
I have over 17000 miles on my bike and that chain is now tighter then any primary chain I've ever seen.
On there web site they have a video and I can see the chain shoe move up and down with the chain. My chain is so tight now I don't think the shoe could have any movement.
Any of you that has installed one have your chain get real tight with very little shoe movement left?
Yes mine came out just like yours and I'm not happy about it. I wrote to Hayden a couple of times (copies of my letters a couple of pages back). I'm waiting for a second reply from Hayden. Either way, I'm definitly not leaving it in there as tight as it is. It looks like I will be installing the oem tensioner and will keep an I eye it. I'm beginning to believe that it may be wiser to get a second shoe for the M6 and try to recess both spring seats an 1/8" if material thickness allows and maybe grind the springs down a bit on both ends. This won't give me anymore travel but will take some of the pressure off the chain until the chain stretches. At this point, concerning my particular bike, I'm thinking that the Hayden was not designed properly and is suited better for bikes with higher milage.
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  #322  
Old 01-12-2013, 05:40 PM
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golfblues golfblues is offline
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I think some of you guys think too much. just give it a shot and let it break in. Your bike won't explode in 500 miles.
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  #323  
Old 01-12-2013, 06:07 PM
GPHDXLC GPHDXLC is offline
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Originally Posted by fathog View Post
Yes mine came out just like yours and I'm not happy about it. I wrote to Hayden a couple of times (copies of my letters a couple of pages back). I'm waiting for a second reply from Hayden. Either way, I'm definitly not leaving it in there as tight as it is. It looks like I will be installing the oem tensioner and will keep an I eye it. I'm beginning to believe that it may be wiser to get a second shoe for the M6 and try to recess both spring seats an 1/8" if material thickness allows and maybe grind the springs down a bit on both ends. This won't give me anymore travel but will take some of the pressure off the chain until the chain stretches. At this point, concerning my particular bike, I'm thinking that the Hayden was not designed properly and is suited better for bikes with higher milage.
Yes I seen yours came out like mine. I have over 17000 on her and it just seems like by now the chain should had stretched a little.
I'm leaving it in and giving it a shot.
But I do understand your concern, because it really dose make that chain tight as hell. If you get any new info from Hayden be sure to let us know or PM me.
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  #324  
Old 01-13-2013, 02:26 AM
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Expat1 Expat1 is offline
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Originally Posted by fathog View Post
Yes mine came out just like yours and I'm not happy about it. I wrote to Hayden a couple of times (copies of my letters a couple of pages back). I'm waiting for a second reply from Hayden. Either way, I'm definitly not leaving it in there as tight as it is. It looks like I will be installing the oem tensioner and will keep an I eye it. I'm beginning to believe that it may be wiser to get a second shoe for the M6 and try to recess both spring seats an 1/8" if material thickness allows and maybe grind the springs down a bit on both ends. This won't give me anymore travel but will take some of the pressure off the chain until the chain stretches. At this point, concerning my particular bike, I'm thinking that the Hayden was not designed properly and is suited better for bikes with higher milage.
The chain stretches progressively and depending how you ride it may take 10 years before you can notice it did elongate. When you install a tensioner you do it for immediate use so why would you want to apply maximum spring tension that allows compensation of maximum chain elongation / shoe travel? That can be done later.
- If you recess the spring seats you reduce the life of the shoe by removing wear material.
- If you shorten the springs you get less force, but if you use only the outer spring you already reduce the force by about 50%. My inner spring is slightly stiffer than the outer one.

The lower segment of the chain is 'feeding' the clutch sprocket most of the time and this doesn't call for a great effort from the tensioner but when we down-shift or start the engine the effort on this side of the chain is such that the shoe will go down anyway. My concern was to not 'punch' the spring through the shoe because once compressed my spring was longer that the well.

Last but not least, when the chain is new it offers very little sagitta to the tensioner. Sagitta increases with chain wear and provides variable leverage conditions, in other words the deeper the sagitta the less effort / pull on both sprocket. The same rule applies to slings (SpanSet) used on lifting equipment. So on a new chain when the tensioner shoe is all the way down and there is very little sagitta we don't want the full spring force.
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Last edited by Expat1; 01-13-2013 at 03:07 AM.. Reason: sagitta argument
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  #325  
Old 01-13-2013, 07:23 AM
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Lowcountry Joe Lowcountry Joe is offline
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If your chain was not already pretty tight, then your stock tensioners take-up spring was not doing it's job of pushing the ramp up the toothed plate. When I went into my primary (2010 with 13,200 miles), my primary chain was fairly tight. When I removed it and installed the Hayden, the chain was tight, but not any tighter than it was with the stock tensioner. Now that was by feel only with no way to measure tension.

You don't want a loose primary chain. Worrying about how tight the chain is with the Hayden is kinda like the oil temperature guys obsessing when oil temps get above 200 F. That chain is spinning when the engine is running. It doesn't stop until you kill the motor. You want a consistent, yet giving, tension available at all times. That's what I see the Hayden providing in this scenario. Remember that there is NO Harley specification for where the tension of the primary chain should be set. So don't get too concerned if your chain still appears tight after the install of the Hayden. Draw comfort from the fact that it will never get any tighter than what you are witnessing at install. That cannot be said for the stock tensioner.

I have nearly 500 miles on mine so far.

Click the image to open in full size.
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  #326  
Old 01-13-2013, 08:43 AM
streeter streeter is offline
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This post has become quite interesting. I have learned some interesting words on here as well. "Sagitta" being one of them. Tight chains with both the stock tensioner and the new hayden as well. Chain tension from 1/4 to 3/8, worries about one spring or two, spring tension, new design or old design and polishing the shoe etc etc.

The stock unit will maintain the correct tension on your chain. The chain does not magically stretch as some of you believe. In order for the tensioner to ratchet up the chain has to have some slack, That comes from wear at the pins then elongation, the slack taken up. The tension maintained no more or no less. You maybe thinking the chain tightens up from the heat cycle due to expansion, not necessarily.

You can measure the dimension of the chain over 14 pins hot or cold. This will give you an idea of the wear on the chain or expansion due to heat. You can ride under all different riding styles and measure the shoe travel. This will confirm if the shoe is advancing and over-tightening your chain.

Thousands of bikes running the stock unit and thousands of bikes with no short term or long term problems. Many ratcheting style tensioners being used in different applications with zero issues. If you sleep better at night knowing you have the Hayden unit, that's great. My point is you can sleep just as restful knowing you have the stock unit as well.

Damn I wish this snow was gone!!!
Ride safe.
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  #327  
Old 01-13-2013, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by streeter View Post
This post has become quite interesting. I have learned some interesting words on here as well. "Sagitta" being one of them. Tight chains with both the stock tensioner and the new hayden as well. Chain tension from 1/4 to 3/8, worries about one spring or two, spring tension, new design or old design and polishing the shoe etc etc.

The stock unit will maintain the correct tension on your chain. The chain does not magically stretch as some of you believe. In order for the tensioner to ratchet up the chain has to have some slack, That comes from wear at the pins then elongation, the slack taken up. The tension maintained no more or no less. You maybe thinking the chain tightens up from the heat cycle due to expansion, not necessarily.

You can measure the dimension of the chain over 14 pins hot or cold. This will give you an idea of the wear on the chain or expansion due to heat. You can ride under all different riding styles and measure the shoe travel. This will confirm if the shoe is advancing and over-tightening your chain.

Thousands of bikes running the stock unit and thousands of bikes with no short term or long term problems. Many ratcheting style tensioners being used in different applications with zero issues. If you sleep better at night knowing you have the Hayden unit, that's great. My point is you can sleep just as restful knowing you have the stock unit as well.

Damn I wish this snow was gone!!!
Ride safe.
Understanding the force on the shoe and forces applied to the chain can be found here:
http://www.fdlake.com/rig-slng.html

In the 30 example a 500-lbs load pulls 500-lbs into each sling; applied to the primary chain this gives 500 on the compensator plus 500 on the clutch. In this case the (120) angle factor doubles the spring force.

In the picture below the angle looks more like 15 so the angle factor is greater, somewhere in the region of 1:3 instead of 1:2.
This means we should be aware of what to do before closing the cover

Click the image to open in full size.
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  #328  
Old 01-13-2013, 12:31 PM
96inchBOB 96inchBOB is offline
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Love this rocket science. From knuckle heads to twin cams up till 07 you had a manual adjuster and set free play in your primary chain to the correct freeplay. Harley is trying to get people that don't know what end of a screw driver to use to ride their bikes. Vic's and Jap bikes and others don't even have a primary chain so some people might buy one of them so they don't have to worry about adjusting a chain so harley did what they did. Hayden came up with a spring loaded tensioner to try to do away with having to adjust the chain. Me i don't mind adjusting a chain and i do not want a spring taking up slack in my chain or any automatic adjuster in my bike. There is only one way to get back to where things should be and it is a little pricey but this thread is fun to read and listen to the people trying to take 1930s design and turn it into rocket science. If you dont like the hayden or the harley adjuster or the baker attitude adjuster maybe you should ride another brand bike. Me i went to the adjustable tensioner it is to easy to do and not worry if my chain is to tight or to lose but you guys do what you think is right and forget it.
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  #329  
Old 01-13-2013, 12:46 PM
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golfblues golfblues is offline
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Originally Posted by 96inchBOB View Post
Love this rocket science. From knuckle heads to twin cams up till 07 you had a manual adjuster and set free play in your primary chain to the correct freeplay. Harley is trying to get people that don't know what end of a screw driver to use to ride their bikes. Vic's and Jap bikes and others don't even have a primary chain so some people might buy one of them so they don't have to worry about adjusting a chain so harley did what they did. Hayden came up with a spring loaded tensioner to try to do away with having to adjust the chain. Me i don't mind adjusting a chain and i do not want a spring taking up slack in my chain or any automatic adjuster in my bike. There is only one way to get back to where things should be and it is a little pricey but this thread is fun to read and listen to the people trying to take 1930s design and turn it into rocket science. If you dont like the hayden or the harley adjuster or the baker attitude adjuster maybe you should ride another brand bike. Me i went to the adjustable tensioner it is to easy to do and not worry if my chain is to tight or to lose but you guys do what you think is right and forget it.

Cmon Bob, this thread is hilarious now. I'm learning sooo much and many new words. Let's not kill it. Lmao!
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  #330  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:15 AM
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fathog fathog is offline
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Default New response from Hayden & more giggles for those who giggle

My last reply to Hayden this morning to Haydens answer below:

Hi Hayden, I've seen your video, it is of your previous design and has at least a 1/2" of travel and I'm sure it has the older softer springs. If mine worked like the one in the video we would not be having this conversation. Maybe the older design is designed in such a way that it allows for more travel from a new chain such as mine. I do understand that the M6 is designed to have spring tension all the time and I agree with that principle. However mine is rock solid with no movement and tight as can be. The stock tensioner I removed caused the chain to be no where near as tight as the M6 and I'm absolutely positive that it did not put nearly as much stress on the chain, sprockets and bearings. You state the difference between your M6 and the OEM is that the M6 does not continually tighten, I know that but what good is that concept when the M6 severely over tightens it from the start at installation? It was never Harley's intension to have the chain as tight as the M6 causes it to be during initial installation. Again as stated previously in my earlier letter, I'm not at all comfortable leaving it in there as tight as it is forcing all parts to remain under such stress for several hundred miles until it wares in. I would like to continue to use it but I need softer springs or a second set of springs for modification. If softer springs are no longer available then I would like to buy a second set of springs and a shoe. Just so you know, I've been using the Hayden in Harleys since I had Harleys. I had it on in my 1982 FLHS and from the get go it provided proper tension without over tightening the chain. It was in there for at least 15 years. I also used the Hayden in my 2003 Road King and again no issues with to tight a chain at installation. Please sell me a 2nd set of softer springs so that I can have my original springs to reinstall after my chain naturally breaks in. If this is not possible please advise. Again I attached before and after pics for your review. If you look carefully and note that the chain and sprockets are in the same position (not rotated) you will notice that more of the teeth on the sprockets are exposed and the M6 is pushing the bottom portion of the chain up higher which is making it to tight.









On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Hayden Enterprises -General Info wrote:




Hi Robert. We understand and appreciate your concern. Again, keep in mind the M6 will have tension on the chain at all times. The difference is our spring system compared to the stock ratcheting system. We dont continuously tighten. The most the springs will move and self adjust is upon start up or when you really need to get on it to accelerate quickly. To watch the M6 while the bike is sitting at an idle will not show you what the unit is doing. Take another look at our video on our website http://www.haydensm6.com/m6_bt07.htm . Again, you will gain approximately another 16th of an inch (larger spring measurement) once those chain links seat themselves in our shoe.




We hope this puts your mind at ease and please feel free to call us. We're here to help. 951-371-0030 .



Thanks,

Hayden's M6 -Primary Chain Tensioner

http://www.haydensm6.com








On Jan 12, 2013, at 8:24 AM, ROBERT wrote:



Greetings again, below is my original letter to you and your reply is below that. This is my concern. I purchased your M6 so that my chain would not become to tight because of the OEM ratcheting tensioner. Since I installed you M6, my chain became extremely tight with no movement up and down at all. If you look closely at the before and after pictures you can see how tight the chain is (top portion) with the M6. The fact that I have less then a 1/4" between the bottom of the shoe and the M6 base indicates to me that there isn't enough travel to allow the M6 to function properly. I know my chain is very new but I'm not about to force it to stretch prematurely do to excessive tightness. My biggest concern is destroying a transmission bearing and inner primary bearings. I know you said give it a few hundred miles to allow breakin but I'm concerned again about way to much stress on the bearings until the chain stretches some more. As I see it I have 2 choices, either I remove the M6 and reinstall the OEM tensioner until the chain gradually looses up some or my first choice would be to use springs that have less resistance in the M6 until it stretches some then reinstall the original supplied springs. Again I have no travel left because I'm less then a 1/4". Please tell me that you have springs that would allow a little less tension or softer springs in other words. I cannot continue to ride it the way it is now but want to keep the M6 in place. I will buy the softer springs such as I've seen with your previous kits if available. Please advise. Thanks Bob. p.s. I forgot to mention that I'm not using any spacers.




Greetings, I just installed your M6 in my 2011 Street Glide, I received in a couple of days ago from Phat Performance. It is the latest version (not welded). My concern is that I'm only getting just shy of a 1/4" from the bottom of the shoe to the bracket. Your directions state I should have 3/8". Since I installed the Hayden my chain is extremely tight and I'm unable to get any up and down movement at the top portion of the chain. With the OEM tensioner I had between 1/2" and 3/4" up and down travel. My bike only has a little less then 6000 miles on it and was without any issues. I belong to HD Forums and the thread I've been discussing this tight issue has suggested that I remove the smaller inner spring to put a little less tension on it. After I did the install I noted more noise coming from the primary and read that the noise should lesson in time but I'm concerned that because it's so tight and I'm not exaggerating that I may destroy a bearing before it loosens up a bit. I attached a before and after pictures for your review. Do you suggest removing the inner spring to lesson the tension a bit or are there softer springs available? I'm very concerned, please advise, thanks Bob



And Hayden's reply:

Hi Robert,

Keep in mind the M6 has constant pressure on the chain. We don't care about chain travel or chain slack measurements. It's the spring compression that's important. You should be installed without either of the shims because of so few miles on the chain. You should however be using both springs at the same time. We have never told anyone to only install one springs. Give the chain a couple hundred miles to cut a little bit into our nylon shoe to seat the rollers. Once that happens your measurement will gain a little and you'll also see the whirling sound go away. That sound is merely the chain gliding over the nylon shoe.









Thanks,

Hayden's M6 -Primary Chain Tensioner

http://www.haydensm6.com
<chain tensioner 002.JPG>
<chain tensioner 004.JPG>








Attached Thumbnails
Hayden Primary Chain Tensioner - Pictures-chain-tensioner-002.jpg   Hayden Primary Chain Tensioner - Pictures-chain-tensioner-004.jpg  
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2011 SG,103 ABS, Fuel Moto exhaust w/ Ceramic head Pipe & PV-1. oem vented lowers, PBR300X4 w/4 Hertz 6.5 speakers. Ricor shocks, Harley Goodies Floor board extenders. Marlins oil temp. gauge. Jagg fan assisted oil cooler w/ WPW's 140 stat. WPW's FCS. Wild Ones 12" apes. Full rear fender bib. Tri bar tail/brake combo, Russell Day Long Seat, Powerlet outlet, Mini Beast horn, Alloy Art Frame Stabilizer a MODIFIED Hayden M6 & The Gordon Lock Down seat and saddle bag locking system

Last edited by fathog; 01-21-2013 at 07:24 AM..
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