RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 2/3/2006 10:57:21 PM
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JonHanna
Posts: 803
Joined: 12/30/2005
From: Greer, South Carolina
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Well I got 3-4 around my area but the 2 closest both tried to get me to do the download. I am gonna try Timms H-D in Anderson, SC and see if those guys know about and have the tuning capabilities. We'll see. Thanks again. I'll get back to you later on... i.e. when I got some money together.
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FOR SALE $12,500
06 FXDBI
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 2/4/2006 5:33:28 PM
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cstephens01
Posts: 56
Joined: 12/9/2005
From: Monticello,IL
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Terry,
Sounds good...I will probably do the big bore stage II kit before its all over so the SERT is in my future !! Thanks again for all your help and I look forward to that ride we talked about this spring !!
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Chris
06 FXSTI
Chopper blue
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 2/5/2006 9:05:12 PM
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iwant1
Posts: 361
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Re: Open and Closed loop
The research I did on this subject, (for cars a while back) described the details of Closed loop mode in detail, and I'm not sure, but this probably applies to bikes as well.
Closed loop is a mode where the system continually leans out the mixture to obtain maximum efficiency (via the 02 and other sensors). However an ecu only enters closed loop mode when the revs are relatively stable (i.e. cruising, idling etc.)
When the rate of change in revs is too high (or the throttle position changes past set tolerances), the the ecu reverts to the mixture map which tells it which mixture to use for a given throttle position. That is to say the ecu drops out of closed loop mode. This is why even closed loop systems require mixture remapping with major modifications to the breathing, and I guess to use a starting point for that leaning out process. The rate of the closed loop measuments are very very rapid on a car (100's per second from memory), although I assume on the vtwin a lesser rate would be required.
cheers
Jim
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 3/5/2006 7:30:04 AM
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mrclean
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how much does all this cost to do as far as bieng able to scan for codes and resetting some of the parameters . price on software and hardware.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 3/5/2006 6:58:07 PM
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wlbowers
Posts: 2150
Joined: 12/14/2005
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to get the most control over your motorcycle. Buy the Screaming Eagle Race Tuner. SERT.
The SERT is an interface module that allows you to connect with your Harleys computer. It allows you to modify the fuel and ignition mapping that the engine runs on.
The links below are to scans from one of the leading Mag's articles on the fuel injection of the Harley.
The SERT will come with an interface module that marries itself to the motorcycle ECM. It can't be used on any other ECM after you connect the first time. It comes with a cable that goes from the ECM to the interface module. It also has software that will run on a personal computer or laptop. This software allows you to read and write the modified data to the ecm.
You do not leave the SERT connected after you do the modifications.
http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi1.pdf
http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi2.pdf
http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi3.pdf
http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi4.pdf
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Lee
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 4/3/2006 4:23:06 PM
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Patch
Posts: 270
Joined: 2/23/2006
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Terry:
I have a 2005 FXDCI with the following installed...
SE stage I big bore kit (1550 cc/95 ci-uses original cam in stage I)
Stage I ECM download
SE a/c
SE II slip fit muflers
platinim plugs
SE ignition wires
Progressive 440 rear shocks (HD)...I weigh 265 lbs. and ride mostly solo.
4200 miles on the bike
lots of chrome.......
I do experiance some poping on deceleration.......SOooo
tomorrow I am going to Lima , Ohio Harley Davidson to have the SERT & Dyno tune
Do I have to tell the dealer whether I am looking for HP versus TQ??
What other information do I want to ask or tell the dealer?????
other than getting the mixture set properly will I gain any HP or TQ from the Dyno tune
The stage I HD ECM download resets the rev limit to 6200.....
Should I have it raised????
I know this is alot of questions, so thank you in advance.
1955 a great year!
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Why is it when you only have one eye everyone calls you "Patch"???
Patch
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 4/3/2006 4:32:18 PM
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Terry1955
HDF Administrator
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From: Charleston,IL
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Tom,
Torque vs. HP depends on how you like to ride. You should not lose much torque anyway with the setup you have so I would go for max HP. Your rev limiter will be fine at 6200 RPMs. If they do the dyno correctly you will gain hp, your gas mileage should be better from the AFR adjustment and you should not have the popping on decel anymore.
Make sure they do a run with your bike the way it is now so you have something to compare your tune to. Let me know how this all turns out.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 4/3/2006 4:45:25 PM
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Patch
Posts: 270
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Terry
Thanks...
I will let you know ...hopefully on Wednesday
The dealer quoted me 2 to 4 hours at the $60.00 shop rate.
Do you know why it is that the HD SE stage I big bore kit without the SE 203 cams
shows more TQ and the same HP as the SE stage II big bore kit??
Tom
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Why is it when you only have one eye everyone calls you "Patch"???
Patch
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 4/3/2006 5:23:48 PM
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Terry1955
HDF Administrator
Posts: 14193
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From: Charleston,IL
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quote:
Do you know why it is that the HD SE stage I big bore kit without the SE 203 cams
shows more TQ and the same HP as the SE stage II big bore kit??
I do not have an answer for this. Maybe Springer_ (our tech rep) can answer it better). I have the Stage II w/203 cams and have lots of torque.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 4/4/2006 10:48:02 PM
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hammer4
Posts: 130
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WOW!!! I just finished reading all 3 pages. WOW!! Thanks guys...Ima picking up an 06 Springer Classic on Tuesday..with SE2 and stage one..Thanks!!! [Vivid black fork and frame and Pearl Black sheet metal]
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 4/5/2006 7:38:09 PM
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Patch
Posts: 270
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Terry:
Well I just got back from Lima, Ohio Harley Davidson.
I had the SERT & Dyno tune......Great dealership, $60.00/hour shop rate.....2 to 4 hours plus SERT unit which I already had.
My bike....2005 FXDCI
SE stage I big bore(uses stock OEM cams)
SE II slip- fit mufflers
plus lots of chrome and progressive 440 Heavy Duty rear shocks
also Dunlop K591 tires
great dyno tune guy..named Jeff, been doing dynos for 9 years
He also told me to not use the SE V-triple platinum plugs as they have been having some problems with them
He also told me the SE stage II big bore kit with the SE 203 cams would have raised both my HP & TQ numbers ny 3 to 5
money is tight for me......hindsight 20/20 (unless you have one eye like me, then it's 10/10)
BEFORE SERT......HP=72.09 / TQ=84.71
AFTER SERT........HP=80.54 / TQ=86.16 -PLUS NO poping on deceleration and a longer curve
I told him I wanted rideability not numbers for benchracing....I am very pleased
cleaner throttle response and picked up some power after 4000 rpm
Rev limit now 6500..not that I need to go that high
next year cams & retune
Tom
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Why is it when you only have one eye everyone calls you "Patch"???
Patch
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 4/8/2006 1:47:02 PM
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ironzo
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Joined: 4/8/2006
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Hi. I'm new to the forum, but I thought I'd add my two cents on this topic. I recenty purchaced a 2004 Road King Classic. I like the bike, but not the factory mufflers. Finances are a bit tight right now, so I looked on eBay to see what I could find for mufflers. I found a guy who modifies the factory mufflers. (B&E Performance Superflow mufflers) I bought a set of modified Road King Classic mufflers with a 2" baffle conversion. (I like the look of the factory slash-up mufflers) The problem is, I have no idea what they would compare to (SE, V&H, etc.) as far as tuning the EFI goes.
I wasn't sure if I should put the mufflers on without doing the computer, so I went to the local dealership and talked to the service manager. He told me that changing the mufflers without doing the computer was ok, as long as I didn't mess with the air cleaner. So, I put them on. The bike seems to run fine. The mufflers sound pretty good. Louder, but not obnoxious. (I intend on installing a Ness big sucker AC when I get the cash to do the SERT upgrade. $650!)
Anyway, I asked about the stage 1 download, and he told me that they were pushing the SERT upgrade. He said that they were averaging about 83 HP out of a stock motor with the mufflers and air cleaner done. He also mentioned a number of times that it was EPA legal. (To give you an idea of how they are, they didn't want to put an inspection sticker on my '83 FXWG last year, because it had aftermarket pipes on it.)
He has an '02 Road Glide with the 95" kit. He said he got 75 HP with the 95" kit, (He hadn't done the SERT upgrade yet because they were on back order), but he couldn't wait to see what he could get out of it with the upgrade.
I'm not looking for a race bike, but a little more "Oomph" would be nice. It sounds to me like the SERT is the way to go! Ron :-)
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 4/12/2006 11:58:26 AM
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sestreet
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Joined: 11/30/2005
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Hi Terry,
I understand the confusion. I've read just about everything I can on this topic and only now am I starting to understand my mistakes. I have V & H slipons, SE Air Cleaner, a "Fuel Tuner", and download on my bike. When I added this stuff (at the dealer) I thought all would be well. NOT! I had the dealer dyno the bike and the torque and HP are in the 70's with no dips. The problem is the bike pops too much and has dead spot in acceleration. I call a different dealer nearby that is listed by PCIII as a qualified tuner with the idea of changing the fuel tuner to the PCIII. They told me much as you did that the PCIII is not my best bet. They recommended the SERT because of the additional set points. I have an appointment next Tuesday to have it installed and tuned. They also told me that the SERT works through the ECM while the PCIII works around it. Is this true?
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Steve
06 Road King Classic
SE AC
Vance & Hines Downturn Slipons
Stage 1 Download
SERT
Boston, MA
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 4/19/2006 4:45:14 PM
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mpscsx
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I have read this entire thread and maybe I have missed it.....what is the HD download? I see where it makes the bike run lean (bad for pistons) and I see that everybody recommends not to get it, but what is the alternative if I have the SERT installed at a dealer?
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 4/19/2006 5:06:01 PM
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Terry1955
HDF Administrator
Posts: 14193
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From: Charleston,IL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mpscsx
I have read this entire thread and maybe I have missed it.....what is the HD download? I see where it makes the bike run lean (bad for pistons) and I see that everybody recommends not to get it, but what is the alternative if I have the SERT installed at a dealer?
The HD Download (Stage 1 or Flash) is a download sold by Harley to modify the EFI for Street Legal Harley pipes and Stage 1 Breather update. The fact that it is street legal means it must conform to EPA Regs which means LEAN. It just doesn't work on most upgrades.
Your alternative if you have a SERT is to have a custom map loaded in your bike's EFI which adjusts your AFR (air fuel ratio) to make it run properly with the added breathing (air intake) from the SE High Flow Stage 1 Breather upgrade and less restrictive exhaust. If you have any other questions just fire off a pm to me.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 5/10/2006 11:08:17 PM
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YSUP
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First post as this topic was cause to register. I'm hearing locally that the SERTs are in short supply or back ordered due to some parts catastrophe / train fire / who knows what. I've called several local dealers, independent shops and Chicago who all say there's nothing available (CHI reports they're backordered 30 deep).
Ideas or other sources? Thanks
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 5/21/2006 8:27:41 PM
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MC3164
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I really enjoy reading all the informative threads on the forum, however, I get confused with some of the suggestions that are offered. I have an "06" SG, completley stock except for some cosmetic stuff. I understand the need for increasing fuel on a motor that's been changed to breath better, but I'm reading how particularly lean the "06"'s are and how some people are adding fuel enrichment to stock motors. My question is are the "06" bikes that lean that to make them run correctly, they also need something to make them a little richer?
As the weather gets warmer I'm noticing that my hot idle is low, and it drops to idle the second I pull in the clutch. When it was cooler out, the idle would drop to around 1200 rpm before settling in to around 1000 rpm. Now it immediately drops to 800 and slowly comes back to 1000. What's up with that?
Thanks in advance,
Mark
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 5/21/2006 8:34:47 PM
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Terry1955
HDF Administrator
Posts: 14193
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From: Charleston,IL
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Mark,
Yes, the 06's run very lean in order to meet EPA regulations. I'm not saying you need a SERT or PCIII on a stock bike but it will run much better if you can get a little more fuel to it. There are many options out there. I don't think the EPA regulated Harley Download should be one of those options.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 5/21/2006 10:10:38 PM
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MC3164
Posts: 16
Joined: 4/24/2006
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Terry,
Thanks for getting back. I've beening thinking about adding a TFI, it has provision for a stock setup like mine, and I could use it when I add slip ons and A/C.
Mark
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 6/22/2006 11:03:42 AM
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HDSTORMDANCER
Posts: 168
Joined: 5/15/2006
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Here is the million dollare question. If I leave my bike stock which is an ultra classic 06. Knowing that it is running lean from the factory what will happen to my engine running this way and I am worried that after the warranty is over I will experience problems. Can you shed some light on this for me. This is my first Harley, I really like it but I put SE slip ons on and find it running hot, I want to go back to stock pipes but need to know what will happen if I do go stock.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 7/6/2006 10:11:42 PM
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TedMan
Posts: 162
Joined: 8/28/2005
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Terry, thanks a bunch for starting this thread. I have been thinking about this issue for the last year. If you could indulge me, I would like to sum up what I've heard/read, and give you my present set-up for consideration.
First current set-up: 2005 FI Softail Deluxe. SE Stage 1 with K&N Filter and HD download. SE 16 gauge shotgun exhaust, but removed stock baffles and put in Thundermonsters.
I'm pretty sure (but as a previous poster noted, never sure when the performance bug will bite) that I will not do additional mods to the engine. With the Thundermonster baffles, I get a great sound, and have not sacrificed any power as far as I can tell. However, I do get some (not serious) popping on decel, and an occasional popping when shifting from 2nd to 3rd off relatively high RPM. I get what I consider minor surging in 1st/2nd gear if I am coasting. My sense is that I need a DFO/TFI, but can't say that I'm displeased with my current performance (last tank I got 49 mpg, maybe because I'm running lean?).
Does it sound like I'm running a little lean and should really consider a DFO? I'm actually more concerned with longer term affects on engine than outright performance, especially since I put in the Thundermonster baffles, although I think they provide enough backpressure. Thanks in advance for any input, or for that matter, any input from the forum as a whole.
Ted
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 7/6/2006 10:17:41 PM
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Terry1955
HDF Administrator
Posts: 14193
Joined: 2/23/2005
From: Charleston,IL
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Ted,
I think you are running a little lean with your set up. I would put some type of tuner on it to get rid of the popping and surge. Just my thoughts. If you are happy then ride it for awhile and see if it gets any worse.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 7/10/2006 8:25:24 PM
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TedMan
Posts: 162
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Terry, thanks for you thoughts.
Ted
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 7/14/2006 11:52:13 AM
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blainem
Posts: 48
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Does anyone have experioence with a closed loop system like Terminal Velocity? My local tech guru says its the way to go now and will cost about the same as a PC install.?
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 7/17/2006 6:05:38 PM
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05FLHTI
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Interesting thread.
I know the ECU needs fine tuning after mods are added but here's my question. My bike is stock right now although I have the PCIII installed and running in "stock bike" mode.
I have Rinehart 2 into 1's coming this week along with a Ness Stage II Billet Sucker. My guy wants 4 hours at $65/hour to install the pipes and cleaner and I can do it myself. He is about 50 miles from here.
I can't find a map for the Stock ECU, Rinehart, Billet Sucker combination. Can I ride it (carefully) up to the shop for him to dynotune it or should I trailer it? Or should I plug in a map that I can find with similar components, say the Stock ECU, V&H Pro Pipe, and SE air cleaner map?
Thanks to all on the forum for the good information.
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2005 FLHTI w/35k miles in 3 years.
Stock TwinCam 88 so far but deciding.
PCIII using stock ECM (no reflash)
Ness Billet Sucker
Rinehart 2 into 1
73.79 HP and 77+ ft/lb torque
Always looking for better ideas.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 8/6/2006 11:00:57 AM
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1carlucci?
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If what you are telling me is true then what are O2 sensors for? Why can you put an exhaust and a cold air kit on a new Corvette without a download and not a Harley? What about when I go to Colorado and drive through the mountains at 10000ft are you trying to tell me that my stock ECM is not capable of compensating for this? An air cleaner and Exhaust will inprove performance, but the air flow through the engine is far more affected by cams and heads. We are only talking about MAYBE 2-3 horsepower from exhaust and air cleaner, but take your bike and dyno it at sea level and then ride it to Denver CO. and dyno it and you will see a 10 horsepower difference. please respond.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 9/1/2006 8:39:24 PM
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buffdaddy
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I can't offer any type of advice to anyone in this room. I'm just a dumb rider that puts on 15,000 miles a year. I've got the '05 RK Classic, Stage 1 kit w/ K&N, Forged Billet Air Cleaner, Race Tuner, Rhinehart True Duels, and NGK plugs. My HD shop has Dyno'd her twice, I'm getting 79 HP, 40'ish MPG, and popping real bad on the decel. I'm guessing that my HD dyno monkey isn't taking the time to do the job correctly? I'm in Frederick, Md, so if anybody has a suggestion of the issue or knows someone that will take the time to do it properly, please chime in. I've considered changing to the PC just to make the tune easier.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 