RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 1/14/2007 10:25:40 AM
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atncass
Posts: 13
Joined: 12/29/2006
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Hello Terry, my name is Mike screen name atncass(my daughters names combined)I own a 02 FXSTBI VH big radius pipes baffles removed arlen ness big sucker stage two ac . I plan to buy the sert from chicago HD for $370 about. But here is my problem I do not trust my local HD stealer to do the tuning they said it could take up to 6 hours and the guy that does it just got back from school. I live in southern IN. and am willing to drive a couple hours but not much more. Can u recommend a proven tuner somewhere fairly close. I appreciate any advice given Mike
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 1/19/2007 11:56:40 PM
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NEONNIGHT34609
Posts: 668
Joined: 5/13/2006
From: florida
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how good is the harley RACE download i dont intend to change anything other then some slip ons and a stage one air cleaner can i just go with the race download ? i hear out about lean conditions but the bike comes factory lean the download has to help some right ?
this is going on a 2006 street bob .
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 2/8/2007 10:49:18 PM
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gordo24fan
Posts: 286
Joined: 1/8/2007
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Bump...Thought this one was worth the rebirth.
_____________________________
Wide open 'til you see god...THEN BRAKE!!!
'07 FLHR
-Rinehart True Duals
-Arlen Ness Big Sucker Air Filter
-Thundermax Tuner
-Beach Cruiser Bars
-Braided clutch, brake, & throttle cables
-Plenty of Chrome and Skulls
-Corbin Fitted Seat
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 2/12/2007 9:31:43 AM
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burnafatty
Posts: 31
Joined: 1/7/2007
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Love the theard, now I wonder if my TFI box is the right thing to have on my 06 fatboy with V&H bigshot staggerds with stage 1 and a/c? Would I be better off with a PC3 or sert. I just put the pipes on, and am flogging it from every light for now( it sounds so good I cannt help it)when it above 40 degrees. But am I going to have a problem with it over heating on longer runs this spring?Is the TFI what I should be running?
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 2/28/2007 10:17:48 AM
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cruiser85257
Posts: 963
Joined: 2/6/2007
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Blainem I have experience with the Terminal Velocity II. I have an 07 Dyna, and in the end it didn't work out for me. I sent it back for a refund.
The Bike ran good most of the time, fuel mpg was very good. But I had intermittent problems that wouldn't go away. Like the Idle would race when I jumped off the highway and came to a stop. It just didn't run consistent. It was a pain to install as I had to splice into the wiring harness.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 3/26/2007 4:22:06 AM
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Onry1
Posts: 44
Joined: 1/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Terry1955
quote:
ORIGINAL: mpscsx
I have read this entire thread and maybe I have missed it.....what is the HD download? I see where it makes the bike run lean (bad for pistons) and I see that everybody recommends not to get it, but what is the alternative if I have the SERT installed at a dealer?
The HD Download (Stage 1 or Flash) is a download sold by Harley to modify the EFI for Street Legal Harley pipes and Stage 1 Breather update. The fact that it is street legal means it must conform to EPA Regs which means LEAN. It just doesn't work on most upgrades.
Your alternative if you have a SERT is to have a custom map loaded in your bike's EFI which adjusts your AFR (air fuel ratio) to make it run properly with the added breathing (air intake) from the SE High Flow Stage 1 Breather upgrade and less restrictive exhaust. If you have any other questions just fire off a pm to me.
Just a note , Wanted to thank you for your intelligent information you've passed along here. I live in Danville and know Roger Gutteridge well. I read alot on these forums and finally got a explanation that clears it up for me. Thanks for the good read!
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 5/2/2007 10:27:45 PM
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XL1200C/C
Posts: 12
Joined: 4/28/2007
From: Tujunga, California
Status: offline
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Hello from a new Harley owner, and rider for 43 years. I just wanted to inject a little ignorance to this discussion, and maybe get some answers.
I, just today, ordered the V&H short shot staggered exhaust for my '07 Sportster 1200 Custom. The shop here in California, Glendale Harley, said it would take two hours for the exhaust installation. an hour for the mapping, and another hour to install my previously bought K&N aircleaner to my stock intake. The bike is stock now, and I just turned 1000 miles on it. I bought it at the begining of March.
Thinking that when they did the 1000 mi service, they would automatically adjust the injection, I added the mods to the list of things to get done. Wrong!! Just to get a high flow intake, and exhaust, it's going to be right around a grand.
After seeing the dialog on this subject, I am now wondering what program the intend to use to re-map my injection.
I saw, on the V&H website, that they sell one, but I didn't know if I would need it more than just to tune the injection once after the installation of these simple two mods. From what I have read tonight, I now don't know.
I need to talk with the shop I guess, and find out what they intend to use to set the bike up to work correctly? I would appreciate any info, as I am taking the bike in as soon as they get the exhaust from the manufacturer, or dealer.
P.S. I Love the bike. First Harley, and I am Hooked. The next closest bike I ever owned, was an old Matchless, and a Triumph back in the late sixties. Nothing compares.
_____________________________
Charles Conway
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 5/6/2007 1:17:16 PM
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XL1200C/C
Posts: 12
Joined: 4/28/2007
From: Tujunga, California
Status: offline
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Hey Terry;
After reading just about anything I can get my hands on, I have some questions for you. Have you had any experience, or info. on the V&H Fuel Pak? I am having short shots, and a K&N filter installed this week, and mapping done by the dealer. Should I consider this the final adjustments on my FI? Is this sufficient to do a lasting job? Should I go ahead and buy the fuel pak?
I am thinking that to keep the mixture right, it may be smart to just go ahead and bite the bullet, and spend the money on the fuel pak.
Any input would be greatly appreciated, as I don't have money to burn, but I also don't want to burn a piston, or cause myself more problems down the road. The bike is getting the 1000 mi. service at the same time, and I want to keep it running as well as possible for a long time. Thanks, C/C
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 5/23/2007 11:47:16 PM
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cwalms
Posts: 209
Joined: 3/12/2007
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Hi everyone, I am new to world of Harley motorcycling and I love it. I just bought my first HD a 2007 Dyna Low Rider about 2 months ago and have already ordered some Khrome Werks Slip Ons and the stage 1 air cleaner. I have a couple of questions I hope you all can help me understand the answers to: I went to the dealership today and asked about the upgrades I was making and was told I needed the SERT to have the ECM programming altered to compensate for the better breathing exhaust. The tech said I wouldn't need to Dyno tune the bike as he had a MAP built for my upgrades. What does this mean exactly and should I be concerened that he is possibly using a canned MAP? Are there any other specific questions I should ask before having the work completed? Thanks in advance for any help.
_____________________________
2007 FXDL
SE AC
SERT
KhromeWerks 3" Slip-on's
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 5/26/2007 3:42:48 PM
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1carlucci?
Posts: 9
Joined: 8/4/2006
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S.E.R.T. = Screaming Eagle Race Tuner
Let me break this down in simple terms for everybody, The O2 sensors on ALL fuel injected Harleys are narrow band, this means that they can make SMALL adjustments to the air fuel mixture at idle and cruise RPM only. I have extensivly researched the benifits of Stock vs. Download vs. S.E.R.T. vs. Power Commander. Here are the results, even the manufactures of these products wont dispute these claims.
If you intend to modify your bike at all, you really need to adjust your fuel injection to go along with the modification.
Stock - already runs lean to help with emissions compliance any modification will result in an even leaner condition possibly resulting in engine damage.
Download - will correct the problem of running lean but will not optimize engine performance, and a battery or other electrical failure could result in the loss of the download. Any further modifications will require another download = more $.
Power Commander - Has an O2 sensor bypass that will allow you to run pipes without ugly o2 sensors, and O2 sensor bungs. A very good product, very tuneable, can be tuned by the purchaser without any additional equipment (not recommended). On a dyno can almost be tuned as good as a S.E.R.T.
S.E.R.T. - The most expensive, but For Harley Davidson, hands down the best product on the market, the most adjustable, and WILL result in the best running engine that your modifications will allow, provided your dyno tech knows what he is doing.
The Power Commander and the S.E.R.T. SHOULD be tuned to your bike on a dyno, this is not cheap! But let me tell you from first hand experience, it is worth the money. It was hard for me to afford, and I have had (and lost) a download, upgraded to a S.E.R.T. with a professional dyno tune and the difference is night and day.
Your shop MAY have Dynoed an identical bike to yours with the same modifications and they MAY offer you that download on your S.E.R.T. to save you money, but be aware, this will probably work fine, may be perfect, but EVERY bike runs slightly different and the ONLY way to guarantee the perfect air fuel mixture and spark timing at every throttle position and every RPM is with the S.E.R.T. and a professional dyno tune by a compitent technitian.
NOTE: I am NOT a Harley Technition and I have nothing to gain from these claims. I learned these facts by doing research and first hand experience. I hope this info will help you all out.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 5/28/2007 1:49:17 AM
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FXST07
Posts: 7
Joined: 5/19/2007
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Great stuff in this thread, it has answered a lot of questions.
_____________________________
Loud pipes save lives!
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 5/28/2007 7:13:14 PM
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thecabinboy
Posts: 161
Joined: 4/17/2006
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whats your views on Cobras Fi2000R?
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 5/31/2007 5:26:50 AM
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pete01
Posts: 33
Joined: 1/8/2006
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Terry, I have a 2007 Ultra Classic, Screamn eagle slipons tour mufflers and stage 1. Had the race fueler, not tuner, installed as I have no intentions of doing big bores, etc. Gave about 4 HP and 3 lbs of trq. but I now have an occasional backfire and a slight hesitation on throttle at idle. I am going to take it back for further adjustment on dyno. They told me the fueler can only do so much. Will the tuner work on the 07, non CA. emissions? The bike was fine without the fueler, except for it running so lean.
_____________________________
Pete
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 6/1/2007 9:41:03 AM
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shtfaced
Posts: 20
Joined: 5/14/2007
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I had a 06 Electra Glide Classic with the S+S tear drop air cleaner and S+S Slip On Mufflers. I got the PCIII and about 1 1/2 hours on the dyno ($55.00 per hour for dyno time).
That bike ran great, and made good power for the whole time I had it.
If I was to make big mods (bored cylinders and high flow heads, big cam lift ect.) I would need a SERT due to the additional cells for fuel and timing adjustments. But, for the average stage 1, I think the Power Commander was fine.
I wrecked that bike and replaced it with a 07 Road Glide which is a different animal due to the o2 sensor system and the closed map.
I rode that bike home, and immedeately installed a set of Rinehart True Duals, a S+S single bore air induction, and a Thundermax ECM with the Auto Tune Moduel.
The Thundermax system constantly tunes your bike by a certain percent of AFR (Air Ruel Ratio) and timming adjustments from the base map, every time you start it up and run it up to temp.
You download a base map that is close to what you are running for mod's much like a Power commander, and the auto Tune adjusts from there. If I go with Big Cylinders, Cams, Heads down the road, I will just download a base map suited to my mods, and let the Thundermax tune away as I drive.
Yes there are times when I might want to go into the map and adjust with my PC. I did it just recently to get my milage up in the crusing range. I adjusted my base map AFR in the cells related to crusing RMP's and throttle positions, and it did the trick. I also made some adjustments to richen the lower or almost closed throttle positions to tone down some decel pop, and that worked fine also.
In conclusion, I had no problems with a PCIII on a 06 Bagger with a few stage 1 mods, and a little dyno time. I rode 13000 miles with that bike in the mountains, and at average sea levels with all kinds of fuel quality. The price for the stage 1 stuff I have mensioned for that bike with the dyno time was not bad, less than $1000.00.
My 07 Bagger is running very good, with good power using the Thundermax auto tune system, and is running good temp wise. Any mods I make in the future will not require dyno adjustments, just some understanding on my part as to what I need my bike to do, and how to get and adjust the propper base map.
The Thundermax system is not cheap though, $850.00 retail ( I paid less, but it was barley used, and I got it from a bud that does big motor mods). That and a set of Reinhart Duals (over $800.00) and the fancy S+S single bore air induction, and now it's starting to add up.
But, I'm done, and I saved some dyno time.
If you don't understand the systems and concepts, you must rely on a good shop and tuner. Your best recource for finding them are your friends who also ride. Talk to your buds, and get there input on who helped them get there bikes modified and running good.
Not all HD's are created equal. Im my area, the two shops that I deal with are of two totally different opinions on what ECM Mods to go with, and even thier dyno's and related equipment are different.
Ask around and get a lot of input form people and go with the best recomoended shops and systems.
It's all you can do if you dont personally have a lot of knowlage on the subject, or personal experince to draw on.
This is all JMO.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 6/1/2007 1:39:03 PM
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Alien Spyder
**Dec 06 BOTM Winner**
Posts: 2939
Joined: 3/17/2006
From: Western, MA.
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Thanks for the post Terry!
It's an excellent read. 
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 6/6/2007 10:39:16 AM
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harleymojoman
Posts: 45
Joined: 3/7/2007
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(quote)
"The Dyno Jet Power Commander does not alter the stock rev limiter. That is why
many people use the Stage 1 Download along with it. The Stage 1 Download
raises the rev limiter to 6200 RPM."
Terry-
I just installed the Power Commander III USB Via a DynoJet and a darn good tuner (John w/Rolling Thunder). It has Rev Extender and raised my Redline to 6,200 RPM. I don't know allot about this stuff (does anybody?) But I know my $20k 07 Heritage Softail now runs 100 times better than it did while I argued with dealer that it needed some sort of mod. Although I can't speak personally for the SEAT I have 2 friends that have them and are happy. Point here is, either one will put you light years ahead of what's coming out of the factory for 2007 ! No more surging and bucking at all speeds, burn't thighs from the heat or pinging constantly. (just my MHO) By the way- this thread is very educational!
< Message edited by harleymojoman -- 6/6/2007 12:11:12 PM >
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 6/7/2007 9:26:02 AM
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desertrat
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Joined: 6/6/2007
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Hi, I'm new to this site. hope I'm putting this message in correctly. Joe, I don't know why the dealer you went to told you you needed an ECM but $1,200.00 for an ECM, SERT, dyno time and taxes doesn't seem high. You didn't say if your evo was stock or big bore. If it is a big bore and you have it race-tuned make sure you install the red injectors into the throttle body. Marelli's use pulse-width and the black injectors are not good enough for big-bore tuning. See it all the time. Long live evo's! desertrat
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 6/22/2007 10:33:15 AM
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pastorerik
Posts: 10
Joined: 6/21/2007
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This is all very confusing to me as I am new to EFI Bikes. Not new to Harleys, just fuel injected ones. Does all of the info in this thread apply to a 1997 EFI Road King?
I have a few questions/concerns:
(1) I just bought a 97 Road King EFI...I have not picked it up yet. The current owner does not know much about it and has ridden it for about 2000 miles...It has drag pipes and a kuryaken hypercharger but is otherwise stock. with 45k miles on it. I don't know if everything was calibrated when these mods were made. The bike starts and runs great. Is it possible to just look at the plugs to see if it is running too rich or too lean....I know that may sound barbaric but I don't have hundreds of dollars to spend at a dealership to have it evaluated. So if it running fine and the plugs look good should I just not worry about it?
(2) I would also like to but a stock air cleaner on it if I can find one. I have heard bad things about the hypercharger...any thoughts? (If anyone has a take-off around for sale, let me know)
(3) I don't like drag pipes and will eventually replace them...will I need to have it checked then? Or can I judge it buy how it is running and "reading" the plugs?
Thanks in advance for your help.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 7/1/2007 11:43:09 AM
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mgmmgm
Posts: 198
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline
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Hi all,
Note sure if this is the correct area to ask this EFI/SERT question?
I have an 2007 Fatboy with Vance and Hines big shots staggered SE AC, and SERT.
I had the bike dyno tuned at 1000k and the bottom of teh dyno print out shows max power 74.21 and max torque 84.21 the air fuel flat line at 13.2 pretty much.
the bike has good response pops when backing off speed rpm at times. My MPG only 41-43 half city and freeway.
Of note I see at the bottom of my dyno print out SEAC, Rinehart shorty**** Does this mean that they used a MAP for Rinehart pipes and not the V&H pipes I have and if so..... what differenc if any would that make?
Also thinking of going to K&N Air filter taller unit that the SE unit from Drag Specialties and wonder if that will affect bike performance air fuel conditon to run lean.... :-( ? and thinking of runing Thunder Monsters .
Any comments regarding my MPG?
Do I need to get re-dyno because the dyno MAP was with Rinehart and not my V&H pipes?
Will I need to re-dyno becuase I change my air filter to K&N and then if I go to Thunder Monster baffles?
Damn EFI anyway.............
Thanks,
Mark
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 7/8/2007 10:13:14 PM
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TRAEOAKES
Posts: 4
Joined: 7/7/2007
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I PREVIOUSLY REMOVED THE BAFFLES ON MY '07 NIGHTSTER AND EVERTHING RAN FINE. RECENTLY I REMOVED THE SECOND MUFFLER TUBE TO GIVE THE BIKE A DEEPER SOUND. AFTER RUNNING THE BIKE FOR A SHORT TIME AND UPON RESTARTING THE FUEL PRIMER STOPPED MAKING THAT PURR SOUND BEFORE IGNITION AND THE ENGINE ICON STOPPED SHOWING UP. SO FAR, THE BIKE HAS STARTED W/O A PROBLEM AND THE FUEL PRIMER DOES PURR WHEN I JUST BUMP THE START BUTTON AND THE BIKE DOESN'T START. THE BIKE HAS 4366 MILES ON IT. I'M WONDERING IF MAYBE MY ECM NEEDS RE-PROGRAMMING. ANY THOUGHTS?
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 7/21/2007 4:52:52 PM
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scottma978
Posts: 83
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: leominster, ma
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ok....I understand the importance of remapping. I also understand (at least I will concede to it as though I grasp the point but am not sure if whoever posted this is right) that the oxygen sensor(s) as in my 07 sg have a "narrow band" or something like that as far as correction in the ecm goes, therefore the need for the remap. I already had screaming eagle slip ons on my bone stock sg. today I went to american harley in leominster, ma with the sole intent to purchase a stage one filter, and a SERT, and whatever else I needed to continue my modification process. The service manager told me there is no need for the SERT, a Power Commander, or anything else until I modify internally. I told him I had the slip ons, so maybe had I said I was going to a true dual system he would have prompted me to buy the SERT also, who knows. Anyway, I came home, installed the stage 1 filter, and nothing else....and thoroughly enjoyed tooling along the curvy secondary roads of southern new hampshire with no trouble all, at all engine speeds. The engine actually felt cooler than normal, but I will take for now the fact that it was a rather cool day compared to all my other riding days thus far this year. Any input?....am I killing my engine without even knowing?..please let me know and thanks in advance. I am new here, but am already falling in love with the forum. The members are lucky to have knowledgeable, such as Terry to learn from. thanks again.  scott
_____________________________
if it ain''t broke......fix it till it is :)
07 street glide, vivid black
Bub 7 true duals , k&n high flow open filter with chrome back piece, chrome front end, passing lamps, billet controls and linkage
PClll
Lyndall pads
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 7/25/2007 5:17:19 AM
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ozgerry
Posts: 7
Joined: 7/18/2007
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Hi Terry, another product that is now on sale here in OZ is the Arlen Ness Big shot efi tuner which is a plug-n-play unit(now available for 2007 big twins). They claim that it is a load based unit and does not work off of the throttle position. Have you or anybody have more info or experience regarding this type of product?
Thanks
Gerry
2007 FXST
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