For all the people that don't quite understand why you need a Race Tuner (SERT) or Power Commander (PCIII USB) for your Harley please read this. This was not written by Harley (who makes the SERT-Race Tuner). I favor the Race Tuner but will concede that the PCIII is also a good piece of equipment. But PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE...Don't use the HD download;)


Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned
The need for "re-mapping" a fuel injected bike only arises when internal and/or
external engine components are replaced with non stock components, i.e. air
cleaners and exhaust systems. When components are changed on an engine to
any non stock or "performance" part you alter the way that engine moves air in
and out, thus altering the Volumetric Efficiency. If the V.E. is altered the stock
ECM fuel settings continue to deliver fuel at a base-line rate unaware that the air
delivery has changed. With the fuel delivery unchanged and the fact that this
engine is receiving more air there is a lean condition created that will most likely
cause engine damage due to higher heat levels in the combustion chamber. A VTwin
engine is just that, two separate cylinders in a "V" configuration which
generally speaking will cause these cylinders to flow air at a different efficiency
rate. This effect is mostly caused by a non tuned exhaust system that flows air at
different rates from front to rear thus changing the volumetric efficiency.
With the advancements and complexity of today's fuel injection systems
simplicity is not necessarily advantageous. The need to compensate for fuel
delivery to a modified engine ideally would be performed by the original engineer
or programmer of the ECM since they would be the one most knowledgeable on
this system. Since this avenue is not available to the average consumer, a
method of putting a "Band-Aid" type programmer (HD Download) to compensate
for the modifications is the easiest solution, however it is not necessarily the best.
Installing a "Band-Aid" on a system with this complexity can sometimes create a
whole new realm of problems that the original engineers could not have
anticipated.
The Dyno Jet Power Commander unit with it's 126 fuel adjustment cells and 126
spark timing cells offer simplicity that cannot always compensate for the high
demands of a modified V-Twin engine. Especially when the cylinders have a
different V.E. rate, this also offers a "Band-Aid" solution at best.
The H-D EFI Race Tuner Kit offers 220 Volumetric Efficiency adjustment cells for
each cylinder along with an Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) adjustment table that has an
additional 120 cells for a total of 560 fuel adjustment cells. There are also 220
cells for each cylinder to compensate for spark timing, fuel enrichment cells for
cold start and cranking enrichment for easier starting. With these extra tables and
cell adjustments there are over 1000 adjustments that can be made. Also
consider the advantages with having the ability to set your idle mixture as well as
idle speed and having access to your own rev limiter which is adjustable from
4000 to 7500 RPM.

__________________________________________________ _________________

The Dyno Jet Power Commander does not alter the stock rev limiter. That is why
many people use the Stage 1 Download along with it. The Stage 1 Download
raises the rev limiter to 6200 RPM.

It's not just EFI bikes, the EXACT same thing happens to carb bikes, we just have to change jets.

I know Thud, it's just that you guys aren't having the problems that us EFI guys are having. Carbs are so simple to adjust or modify compared to the Fuel Injection. No more tinkering in the garage. Gotta have a laptop, dyno, etc. etc............


Terry

Once you have the purchased all the EFI goodie$$, loaded the software on your laptop, and install your own dyno, its easy.

[sm=drooldude.gif]

I was shocked how much I had to spend on my first EFI bike, and I am a gadget freak.

OK if a man buys a HD Race Tuner, can the indy shops dyno it or do I take my bike to a HD stealer with a dyno?

Grover,

Any certified dyno tech that has the HD Sert software (actually he should be able to use yours) and understands it should be able to dial in your bike. I'm lucky that I have a good dealer with a great dyno tech.

Terry
[sm=biker2.gif]

Does the software come with the SERT?

Yes Grover,

The software comes with the SERT. When you get the map you want it is saved on your computer. You can pull it back up and modify it at any time. There are also a ton of canned maps (kinda like PCIII) where you can pick the closest one to your modifications and just download it to your bike. When you unplug the SERT from your bike you leave nothing hanging on. Very clean. The SERT is registered to your bike and can't be used on anyone elses bike.


Terry

Great article, just a clarification.

The PC3 usb model has the ability to map 225 individual cells per cylinder. (maximize map resolution)
It also has the ability to map each cylinder individually so you can take care of the differing VE from front to rear. (advanced map)

It also has the ability to do the same with regard to timing with each cylinder.

Both are great tuning tools but in the end it comes down to who tunes them.

John

I don't have my new bike yet, and havn't played with the racer tuner yet, so I could be off base here. If I'm wrong, terry, please correct me. Over the last year, I have have been gaining experiance with aftermarket EFI. I have installed an 8 stack EFI with a haltech computer on my V8 Ford. I realize there are a lot of differances between a water cooled V8 and an air cooled V2, but it seems that the concepts would be similar.

Moving from a carb to EFI is more complicated. There's a learning curve. There are also differant tools and parts you need to do the tuning. But there seems to be some misconceptions about that.

1. EFI is easier. I can change the jetting without ever taking off my seat belt. Drive a little, punch a few keys, drive a little, punch a few keys. It doesn't take long to dial it in for perfect drivability. You can easily go too far and make it too lean/rich. But then in a couple of key strokes you're back in the right direction.

2. You don't need a dyno. Actually, I've not found a dyno to be overly helpfull for a street vehicle. But a good A/F meter is really helpfull.

3. Data logging is extremly valuable for the street driver/rider. You can see where your A:F is where you ride most. Then you tap a few keys and make the appropriate changes. Better than a dyno, IMO.

4. Closed loop is the ideal. To have the comuter adjust for changing situations is a huge leap in technology. But that only goes so far. Max adjustment is only 15-20%. And you don't want it for WOT. And if you have a radical cam it doesn't work well at idle, either. But for general driving/riding this is the way to go, no question.

5. Same goes with timing. Add timing until it pings, then back off a couple of degrees. It would be nice to make changes according to climate, altitude, etc. The problem I see is that you set it for ideal conditions to make most power, then have to back off because something changed. But you're on the road and don't have your lap top. A smart rider will be somewhat conservative, I would think.

Like I said, I don't have my new bike yet. But I'm looking foreward to playing with the new computer system.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Terry, I just came from my dealer, (MC, not dope) and he says that the Race tuner can be installed initially in two hours, and then re set every time I do a change in 1/2 hour. Is this true in your experiance.

You know I don't trust them, since they are the same idiots that insisted i needed a HD download.

Joe,

The initial install should take 1-2 hours. The actual tuning depends on how good your mechanic is. To really tweak it right you need a dyno. It also depends on what kinda upgrades you have. My Rineharts take longer because of the way they are designed. Once they are tuned correctly they run great. I would not want a new mechanic trying to do it though. A simple air cleaner upgrade with some SE Slipons should not take as long. The race tuner has maps installed on a CD Rom and on the Harley website that can be matched to your upgrades. Once that is downloaded it can be tweaked to adjust any little problems you are having. The simpler your upgrades, the simpler the tune.

[sm=biker2.gif]

Bump

Still dazed and confused here. All these upgrades for SERTs and downloads? For what end result?? More power?, Speed? Increased MPG? So I can grunt louder than the other guy? Just a need to spend more $$$$$$$???? Honestly I really don't get it.

Jim

local://upfiles/4575/ACE85720A1064E45AC547F3F63E5166E.gif

ORIGINAL: soos

Still dazed and confused here. All these upgrades for SERTs and downloads? For what end result?? More power?, Speed? Increased MPG? So I can grunt louder than the other guy? Just a need to spend more $$$$$$$???? Honestly I really don't get it.

Jim



Increased speed, better mileage and more power are just by-products of a well tuned engine. It's really more for the health of your engine. If you modify the intake or the exhaust, you are changing the amount of air that the engine pumps. In order to have a good running engine, you have to compensate for this by altering the fuel/air mixture and possibly the timing. Sometimes you need to adjust the idle speed or the way the cold engine enrichment is set. On a computer controlled EFI engine, the only way to do this is to alter the electronic signals that are sent to the engine from the ECM. If you don't have a properly tuned bike, you may experience overheating, poor fuel mileage, or at best, a engine that just doesn't perform well. The SERT is a tool that allows you to change settings inside the ECM. The PCIII is a bolt-on device that intercepts the stock ECM signals and alters them before passing them along to the engine.

It's all about tuning. Just like the mechanic used to have to put new points, plugs, adjust timing and adjust the carb in your old car... Now it's all computer controlled and EFI systems are no different, they just require different tools - tools like the SERT.

Still dazed and confused here. All these upgrades for SERTs and downloads? For what end result?? More power?, Speed? Increased MPG? So I can grunt louder than the other guy? Just a need to spend more $$$$$$$???? Honestly I really don't get it.

Jim


I bet you can count the members on this forum who are running stone stock bikes on one hand and have a couple fingers left over. Everybody changes their pipes and air cleaner. That's just the way us harley guys are. The SERT is the best tuning method to make the bike run the way it should. We aren't talking about ported heads and high compression pistons here. Just the standard minor mods. I started this thread because I probably get 2-3 PMs a day or I read another 2 or 3 threads asking for this info. The end result is a harley you can have some real fun on. That's what it is all about.

Terry

the 05 harleys and earlier have an open loop fuel management system while the new 06's have a closed loop design, this is a huge differeance. and it is also the reason why the 06 bikes are having so much trouble with the download. get a power commander or a sert. do not waste your money on a hd download.

ORIGINAL: tugboat

the 05 harleys and earlier have an open loop fuel management system while the new 06's have a closed loop design, this is a huge differeance. and it is also the reason why the 06 bikes are having so much trouble with the download. get a power commander or a sert. do not waste your money on a hd download.



It's only the 06 dynas that have the closed loop fuel injection .

It's only the 06 dynas that have the closed loop fuel injection .



This is true. Everybody freaked when they thought all the 06's had this. Hell, they didn't even give the dealers the info they needed to fix all the EFI problems on the 06's. Even still, for some reason the download quit working properly (or marginal at best) in 05.

Terry

ORIGINAL: terryt1955

It's only the 06 dynas that have the closed loop fuel injection .



This is true. Everybody freaked when they thought all the 06's had this. Hell, they didn't even give the dealers the info they needed to fix all the EFI problems on the 06's. Even still, for some reason the download quit working properly (or marginal at best) in 05.

Terry


I don't undertand why people freaked about the closed loop EFI anyway. 02 sensors just help the ECM make corrections to keep the bike in tune. Even if they are narrow band and the corrections are small, I see this as a good thing. You get the right map in the ECM and the sensors just help it run better. Am I missing something?

I don't understand all the noise about the download myself, put a TFI on it an know that you have enough fuel to not run lean. Makes more sense to me any way you look at it. Skip the crappy download as Terry said :D

Why would anybody want the download which is EPA mandated to be lean before you even get it installed.:eek:

I have a stage I upgrade on my '05 FXDI. Don't plan on any other mods this year at least. Is there a reason for me to buy a sert or can I just take it to TerryT's mechanic and have hime tune it with a shop sert and the dyno? In other words, do I have to buy the sert to have the soek done or can they just use a their own? TIA, Art

Well Terry you can include me as one who is running a "stone stock bike". I am new this past year to the HD family but have been riding for the last 32 years. Owning a Harley has been a real eye opener in all senses of the phrase. I never realized there was so much to owning one. So that I may be more enlightened, what is it that I would need to do, (in a nutshell) to improve my EG's overall running performance and what kind of $$ are we talking here, over and above the large chunk of change that I have already shelled out for my (what I thought was the top of the line) motorcycle?

Thanx,

Jim

local://upfiles/4575/DB897FF69F6A4D27B83B0FDFCDFB70AA.gif

Soos,

There is nothing wrong with a stone stock bike. There just aren't that many of them out there. If you are happy with the performance then don't worry about it. If you want basic improvements then your best bet is a good set of SE Slipon pipes, the stage 1 air cleaner and the SERT. They can download (from the SERT) a basic map and modify it to your needs.

Cost
Pipes Guessing here but you can get an idea from your hd catalog $349.00 ?
Air Cleaner $139.00-149.00
SERT $459.00
2-3 hrs labor

Now alot of dealers are having 10-15% sales off and on this time of year. Check around. You can also get the SERT from Eastern Performance Cycles for approx 15% off with no tax to boot. Save some bucks where you can.


Art,

Same with you. If your bike is running good, leave it alone. Not everybody is a gearhead like me and some of the others here:D. We like to run fast and play like those idiots on their crotch rockets:D:D. You can ignore us if you want. But you fall into the same catagory as Soos. You have to buy the SERT. It registers to your VIN and can't be used on another bike. I know, another way to take your money but it is an excellent piece of equipment.

Terry

It's only the 06 dynas that have the closed loop fuel injection .



Anyone know what's needed to convert an 06 open loop system to the 06 dyna's closed loop system?

bump

Anyone know what's needed to convert an 06 open loop system to the 06 dyna's closed loop system?


Take a look at page 36 of the January 2006 V-Twin magazine, Terry Components (www.terrycomp.com) makes a conversion kit for open-loop EFI.
If you go with it, please post feedback, I'd be interested in knowing what performance improvements it produces. I think the Rineharts I just ordered come with the bung for the O2 sensor, you'd have to either weld the bung that comes with the kit or get pipes like the Rineharts that already have the bung.

ORIGINAL: JamieWG
I don't undertand why people freaked about the closed loop EFI anyway. 02 sensors just help the ECM make corrections to keep the bike in tune. Even if they are narrow band and the corrections are small, I see this as a good thing. You get the right map in the ECM and the sensors just help it run better. Am I missing something?


No, you're not missing anything. I had planned on avoiding a new harley until that change was made and the bugs worked out. Closed loop is a marked technological improvement. What you want is a machine that will adjust itself for changing conditions. It really doesn't get any better than that.

New aftermarket EFI systems are equipped with a wide band O2 sensor. You enter in some basic engine information. Then go drive the car. That's all the tuning it needs. It makes it's own maps while you drive. I expect to see that for HD in another 4-5 years.

Found this article. Some good information on the EFI on the Harley's. Scanned it and put the pages up as jpg's.

Once the image is opened. Double click on it and then click on the small box with arrows that shows up.

http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi1.jpg
http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi2.jpg
http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi3.jpg
http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi4.jpg

Below are links to PDF's of the same file.

http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi1.pdf
http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi2.pdf
http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi3.pdf
http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi4.pdf

terry,
what shop did your tuning for you??

I don't meant to jump into this conversation half way through but I've got a question. I've got the new '06 street bob, it's a closed loop EFI system as you know.
I've ordered the V&H Big Shots exhaust, had ordered the Procharger but canceled it when I read so many questionable comments on it, so where do I go from here. I want good performance out of this thing, is a SE stage 1 kit and a programmer the best performance? What would you suggest as I'm fairly new to this?
If a programmer is needed, which one?
Thanks.....

terry,
what shop did your tuning for you??


Gutterridge Harley Davidson in Danville, IL

I've ordered the V&H Big Shots exhaust, had ordered the Procharger but canceled it when I read so many questionable comments on it, so where do I go from here. I want good performance out of this thing, is a SE stage 1 kit and a programmer the best performance? What would you suggest as I'm fairly new to this?
If a programmer is needed, which one?

Your best bet is to go with the SERT. With the problems with the 06's running lean due to EPA regs the SERT will be able to overcome this problem with proper tuning. You will need to have it dyno's after you get 1000 miles on it.

Please excuse me for sounding like an ignoramus, but what exactly is a SERT? Being new at this, I need it on the bottom shelf so I understand.
Thanks....

thanks for the reply thats where i had in mind to take mine figured you went there or wabash valley

"The race tuner has maps installed on a CD Rom and on the Harley website that can be matched to your upgrades"

Just wanted to clarify before I buy a SERT . . . I can't seem to find any downloads or maps on Harley's website. Is there a portion of the site to download maps that I'm not seeing?

I believe when you load the CD from the SERT it will take you to the site where the maps are.

Hey Terry !!!

Havent talked to you in a while..(been busy) I will post a copy of my dyno sheet so you guys can take a look....I went over to the dealer (Coziahrs) and asked them about my bike. Remember I had the Stage1 and the big radius pipes put on but they did no SERT/PCIII...The service manager told me they have had several 06 bikes do these basic mods and be near perfect on the dyno ? I put another 25 miles on the bike yesterday and still seems to run good ? The service manager also told me he would be more than happy to sell me a SERT but I would be wasting my $....I wonder if things might change when it gets hot out, will the warmer temps change how it runs ??? I still dont trust the dealer so Im watching everything like a hawk !

Thanks,

Terry,
Thanks for posting all this info. I Have been getting inputs from everyone about the download, pcIII and SERT. I know the SERT is more on the ol wallet but didn't someone say once that you get what you pay for!!! I will only have to find a dealer in my area to tune it properly. All my dealer recommended was the download(of course). So if I haveto trailer it a few miles I guess that will be ok with me. I did it for my 02 Mustang and I guess my bike should be no exception!

Chris,

If your bike is running good then don't worry about it. Once in awhile things will just click and you get lucky. I know that Coziahr's does SERTs becaue I know someone that works there. I also know that they dyno tune the SERT there. They have no reason to not take your money from you so give it a try. It's not that big of a deal to add one later. If you don't get the answers you want, take your bike to Danville (Gutterridge HD) and they will be more than happy to dyno it with a SERT.

Nice talking to you again. I haven't forgotten you:D.

Jon,

Do a little research and find a dealer that will do what you want. I can't understand why so many dealers don't like to use the SERT. Harley is trying to force them to use all Harley parts and get away from after market too so you would think it would be hard to get a dealer to install a PCIII. There are some good dealers out there.

Well I got 3-4 around my area but the 2 closest both tried to get me to do the download. I am gonna try Timms H-D in Anderson, SC and see if those guys know about and have the tuning capabilities. We'll see. Thanks again. I'll get back to you later on... i.e. when I got some money together.

Terry,

Sounds good...I will probably do the big bore stage II kit before its all over so the SERT is in my future !! Thanks again for all your help and I look forward to that ride we talked about this spring !!

[sm=biker2.gif]

Re: Open and Closed loop

The research I did on this subject, (for cars a while back) described the details of Closed loop mode in detail, and I'm not sure, but this probably applies to bikes as well.

Closed loop is a mode where the system continually leans out the mixture to obtain maximum efficiency (via the 02 and other sensors). However an ecu only enters closed loop mode when the revs are relatively stable (i.e. cruising, idling etc.)

When the rate of change in revs is too high (or the throttle position changes past set tolerances), the the ecu reverts to the mixture map which tells it which mixture to use for a given throttle position. That is to say the ecu drops out of closed loop mode. This is why even closed loop systems require mixture remapping with major modifications to the breathing, and I guess to use a starting point for that leaning out process. The rate of the closed loop measuments are very very rapid on a car (100's per second from memory), although I assume on the vtwin a lesser rate would be required.

cheers
Jim

how much does all this cost to do as far as bieng able to scan for codes and resetting some of the parameters . price on software and hardware.

to get the most control over your motorcycle. Buy the Screaming Eagle Race Tuner. SERT.

The SERT is an interface module that allows you to connect with your Harleys computer. It allows you to modify the fuel and ignition mapping that the engine runs on.

The links below are to scans from one of the leading Mag's articles on the fuel injection of the Harley.

The SERT will come with an interface module that marries itself to the motorcycle ECM. It can't be used on any other ECM after you connect the first time. It comes with a cable that goes from the ECM to the interface module. It also has software that will run on a personal computer or laptop. This software allows you to read and write the modified data to the ecm.

You do not leave the SERT connected after you do the modifications.

http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi1.pdf
http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi2.pdf
http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi3.pdf
http://www.msttn.com/dyna/fi4.pdf

in new york the problem is getting any dealer with a dyno then getting your bike back within 4-6 weeks.one h-d dealer asked me if i wanted the bike back before the fourth of july.i was told that the ecm needs to be replaced and a sert and a full day . iwas quoted over $1200.00
i need to find a truthful dealer with a dyno who doesn't look at a 97 eg and doesn't know a thing cause it is before his time.noone in the other forum has a response so i came here.

i suppose the forum does not have the answers to the hard questions . or it's a 97 and noone has the answer.

Terry:

I have a 2005 FXDCI with the following installed...

SE stage I big bore kit (1550 cc/95 ci-uses original cam in stage I)
Stage I ECM download
SE a/c
SE II slip fit muflers
platinim plugs
SE ignition wires
Progressive 440 rear shocks (HD)...I weigh 265 lbs. and ride mostly solo.
4200 miles on the bike
lots of chrome.......

I do experiance some poping on deceleration.......SOooo
tomorrow I am going to Lima , Ohio Harley Davidson to have the SERT & Dyno tune

Do I have to tell the dealer whether I am looking for HP versus TQ??
What other information do I want to ask or tell the dealer?????
other than getting the mixture set properly will I gain any HP or TQ from the Dyno tune
The stage I HD ECM download resets the rev limit to 6200.....
Should I have it raised????

I know this is alot of questions, so thank you in advance.
1955 a great year!

Tom,

Torque vs. HP depends on how you like to ride. You should not lose much torque anyway with the setup you have so I would go for max HP. Your rev limiter will be fine at 6200 RPMs. If they do the dyno correctly you will gain hp, your gas mileage should be better from the AFR adjustment and you should not have the popping on decel anymore.

Make sure they do a run with your bike the way it is now so you have something to compare your tune to. Let me know how this all turns out.

Terry

Thanks...
I will let you know ...hopefully on Wednesday
The dealer quoted me 2 to 4 hours at the $60.00 shop rate.

Do you know why it is that the HD SE stage I big bore kit without the SE 203 cams
shows more TQ and the same HP as the SE stage II big bore kit??

Tom

Do you know why it is that the HD SE stage I big bore kit without the SE 203 cams
shows more TQ and the same HP as the SE stage II big bore kit??

I do not have an answer for this. Maybe Springer_ (our tech rep) can answer it better). I have the Stage II w/203 cams and have lots of torque.

WOW!!! I just finished reading all 3 pages. WOW!! Thanks guys...Ima picking up an 06 Springer Classic on Tuesday..with SE2 and stage one..Thanks!!! [Vivid black fork and frame and Pearl Black sheet metal]

Terry:

Well I just got back from Lima, Ohio Harley Davidson.
I had the SERT & Dyno tune......Great dealership, $60.00/hour shop rate.....2 to 4 hours plus SERT unit which I already had.

My bike....2005 FXDCI
SE stage I big bore(uses stock OEM cams)
SE II slip- fit mufflers
plus lots of chrome and progressive 440 Heavy Duty rear shocks
also Dunlop K591 tires
great dyno tune guy..named Jeff, been doing dynos for 9 years
He also told me to not use the SE V-triple platinum plugs as they have been having some problems with them
He also told me the SE stage II big bore kit with the SE 203 cams would have raised both my HP & TQ numbers ny 3 to 5
money is tight for me......hindsight 20/20 (unless you have one eye like me, then it's 10/10)

BEFORE SERT......HP=72.09 / TQ=84.71
AFTER SERT........HP=80.54 / TQ=86.16 -PLUS NO poping on deceleration and a longer curve
I told him I wanted rideability not numbers for benchracing....I am very pleased
cleaner throttle response and picked up some power after 4000 rpm
Rev limit now 6500..not that I need to go that high
next year cams & retune

Tom

Hi. I'm new to the forum, but I thought I'd add my two cents on this topic. I recenty purchaced a 2004 Road King Classic. I like the bike, but not the factory mufflers. Finances are a bit tight right now, so I looked on eBay to see what I could find for mufflers. I found a guy who modifies the factory mufflers. (B&E Performance Superflow mufflers) I bought a set of modified Road King Classic mufflers with a 2" baffle conversion. (I like the look of the factory slash-up mufflers) The problem is, I have no idea what they would compare to (SE, V&H, etc.) as far as tuning the EFI goes.
I wasn't sure if I should put the mufflers on without doing the computer, so I went to the local dealership and talked to the service manager. He told me that changing the mufflers without doing the computer was ok, as long as I didn't mess with the air cleaner. So, I put them on. The bike seems to run fine. The mufflers sound pretty good. Louder, but not obnoxious. (I intend on installing a Ness big sucker AC when I get the cash to do the SERT upgrade. $650!)
Anyway, I asked about the stage 1 download, and he told me that they were pushing the SERT upgrade. He said that they were averaging about 83 HP out of a stock motor with the mufflers and air cleaner done. He also mentioned a number of times that it was EPA legal. (To give you an idea of how they are, they didn't want to put an inspection sticker on my '83 FXWG last year, because it had aftermarket pipes on it.)
He has an '02 Road Glide with the 95" kit. He said he got 75 HP with the 95" kit, (He hadn't done the SERT upgrade yet because they were on back order), but he couldn't wait to see what he could get out of it with the upgrade.
I'm not looking for a race bike, but a little more "Oomph" would be nice. It sounds to me like the SERT is the way to go! Ron :-)

Hi Terry,
I understand the confusion. I've read just about everything I can on this topic and only now am I starting to understand my mistakes. I have V & H slipons, SE Air Cleaner, a "Fuel Tuner", and download on my bike. When I added this stuff (at the dealer) I thought all would be well. NOT! I had the dealer dyno the bike and the torque and HP are in the 70's with no dips. The problem is the bike pops too much and has dead spot in acceleration. I call a different dealer nearby that is listed by PCIII as a qualified tuner with the idea of changing the fuel tuner to the PCIII. They told me much as you did that the PCIII is not my best bet. They recommended the SERT because of the additional set points. I have an appointment next Tuesday to have it installed and tuned. They also told me that the SERT works through the ECM while the PCIII works around it. Is this true?

I have read this entire thread and maybe I have missed it.....what is the HD download? I see where it makes the bike run lean (bad for pistons) and I see that everybody recommends not to get it, but what is the alternative if I have the SERT installed at a dealer?

ORIGINAL: mpscsx

I have read this entire thread and maybe I have missed it.....what is the HD download? I see where it makes the bike run lean (bad for pistons) and I see that everybody recommends not to get it, but what is the alternative if I have the SERT installed at a dealer?


The HD Download (Stage 1 or Flash) is a download sold by Harley to modify the EFI for Street Legal Harley pipes and Stage 1 Breather update. The fact that it is street legal means it must conform to EPA Regs which means LEAN. It just doesn't work on most upgrades.

Your alternative if you have a SERT is to have a custom map loaded in your bike's EFI which adjusts your AFR (air fuel ratio) to make it run properly with the added breathing (air intake) from the SE High Flow Stage 1 Breather upgrade and less restrictive exhaust. If you have any other questions just fire off a pm to me.

First post as this topic was cause to register. I'm hearing locally that the SERTs are in short supply or back ordered due to some parts catastrophe / train fire / who knows what. I've called several local dealers, independent shops and Chicago who all say there's nothing available (CHI reports they're backordered 30 deep).

Ideas or other sources? Thanks

I really enjoy reading all the informative threads on the forum, however, I get confused with some of the suggestions that are offered. I have an "06" SG, completley stock except for some cosmetic stuff. I understand the need for increasing fuel on a motor that's been changed to breath better, but I'm reading how particularly lean the "06"'s are and how some people are adding fuel enrichment to stock motors. My question is are the "06" bikes that lean that to make them run correctly, they also need something to make them a little richer?
As the weather gets warmer I'm noticing that my hot idle is low, and it drops to idle the second I pull in the clutch. When it was cooler out, the idle would drop to around 1200 rpm before settling in to around 1000 rpm. Now it immediately drops to 800 and slowly comes back to 1000. What's up with that?
Thanks in advance,
Mark

Mark,

Yes, the 06's run very lean in order to meet EPA regulations. I'm not saying you need a SERT or PCIII on a stock bike but it will run much better if you can get a little more fuel to it. There are many options out there. I don't think the EPA regulated Harley Download should be one of those options.

Terry,

Thanks for getting back. I've beening thinking about adding a TFI, it has provision for a stock setup like mine, and I could use it when I add slip ons and A/C.

Mark

Here is the million dollare question. If I leave my bike stock which is an ultra classic 06. Knowing that it is running lean from the factory what will happen to my engine running this way and I am worried that after the warranty is over I will experience problems. Can you shed some light on this for me. This is my first Harley, I really like it but I put SE slip ons on and find it running hot, I want to go back to stock pipes but need to know what will happen if I do go stock.

Terry, thanks a bunch for starting this thread. I have been thinking about this issue for the last year. If you could indulge me, I would like to sum up what I've heard/read, and give you my present set-up for consideration.

First current set-up: 2005 FI Softail Deluxe. SE Stage 1 with K&N Filter and HD download. SE 16 gauge shotgun exhaust, but removed stock baffles and put in Thundermonsters.

I'm pretty sure (but as a previous poster noted, never sure when the performance bug will bite) that I will not do additional mods to the engine. With the Thundermonster baffles, I get a great sound, and have not sacrificed any power as far as I can tell. However, I do get some (not serious) popping on decel, and an occasional popping when shifting from 2nd to 3rd off relatively high RPM. I get what I consider minor surging in 1st/2nd gear if I am coasting. My sense is that I need a DFO/TFI, but can't say that I'm displeased with my current performance (last tank I got 49 mpg, maybe because I'm running lean?).

Does it sound like I'm running a little lean and should really consider a DFO? I'm actually more concerned with longer term affects on engine than outright performance, especially since I put in the Thundermonster baffles, although I think they provide enough backpressure. Thanks in advance for any input, or for that matter, any input from the forum as a whole.

Ted

Ted,

I think you are running a little lean with your set up. I would put some type of tuner on it to get rid of the popping and surge. Just my thoughts. If you are happy then ride it for awhile and see if it gets any worse.

Terry, thanks for you thoughts.

Ted

Does anyone have experioence with a closed loop system like Terminal Velocity? My local tech guru says its the way to go now and will cost about the same as a PC install.?

Interesting thread.

I know the ECU needs fine tuning after mods are added but here's my question. My bike is stock right now although I have the PCIII installed and running in "stock bike" mode.

I have Rinehart 2 into 1's coming this week along with a Ness Stage II Billet Sucker. My guy wants 4 hours at $65/hour to install the pipes and cleaner and I can do it myself. He is about 50 miles from here.

I can't find a map for the Stock ECU, Rinehart, Billet Sucker combination. Can I ride it (carefully) up to the shop for him to dynotune it or should I trailer it? Or should I plug in a map that I can find with similar components, say the Stock ECU, V&H Pro Pipe, and SE air cleaner map?

Thanks to all on the forum for the good information.

If what you are telling me is true then what are O2 sensors for? Why can you put an exhaust and a cold air kit on a new Corvette without a download and not a Harley? What about when I go to Colorado and drive through the mountains at 10000ft are you trying to tell me that my stock ECM is not capable of compensating for this? An air cleaner and Exhaust will inprove performance, but the air flow through the engine is far more affected by cams and heads. We are only talking about MAYBE 2-3 horsepower from exhaust and air cleaner, but take your bike and dyno it at sea level and then ride it to Denver CO. and dyno it and you will see a 10 horsepower difference. please respond.

I can't offer any type of advice to anyone in this room. I'm just a dumb rider that puts on 15,000 miles a year. I've got the '05 RK Classic, Stage 1 kit w/ K&N, Forged Billet Air Cleaner, Race Tuner, Rhinehart True Duels, and NGK plugs. My HD shop has Dyno'd her twice, I'm getting 79 HP, 40'ish MPG, and popping real bad on the decel. I'm guessing that my HD dyno monkey isn't taking the time to do the job correctly? I'm in Frederick, Md, so if anybody has a suggestion of the issue or knows someone that will take the time to do it properly, please chime in. I've considered changing to the PC just to make the tune easier.

ORIGINAL: blainem

Does anyone have experioence with a closed loop system like Terminal Velocity? My local tech guru says its the way to go now and will cost about the same as a PC install.?


I heard this also. The way I read it is that it modifies the signal to your
injectors based on the O2 from the third (added) O2 sensor. It lets the
stock ECM take care of the minor adjustments and it modifies the signal
to the injectors to help stabilize your ratio closer to 12:1 Check out their
site: http://www.terrycomp.com/tv.html

I have also heard stock or mildly modified bikes don't need adjustment.
But running lean means running hot which translates to shorter engine life.
Stock bikes run lean.

I bought one along with an oil cooler for my stock 06 FXDWG. but haven't
had a chance to install them yet.

I got mine from:
https://www.directparts.com/ for under $400. They claim "works with stock
sensors", which it does, but you still have to add their O2 sensor.

I've read on other forums that people love them. Google for "terminal
velocity ii"

Cheeze

O2 sensors in the new corvette are wide band 4 wire O2. The ones in Harley are 2 wire narrow band. All they do is send back a switched voltage 850 mv is pretty close to where you want. Above 850 mv is rich, below is lean. You can go as high a 900 mv for a non Nitrous or forced induction. The Harley PCM ECM system is about 15 years behind Modern automotive applications. The Vette also uses a MAF ( MASS AIR FLOW Sensor) unlike Harley which uses Speed Density ( A crude version of it) This is why VE Tables have more affect than a MAF system. The vette will use speed density if the CEL is on. Also know as Limp mode. Harley are in permanent limp mode so to speak. I have programmed Vettes with a similar system called LS1 Edit. Even though you can add to a vette without and upload. It work much better if you upload. Vettes run super rich at 4800 rpm. I remove this in the PE tables.
Sorry getting off topic. This is about Harley tunes, not vette tunes.

ORIGINAL: 1carlucci?

If what you are telling me is true then what are O2 sensors for? Why can you put an exhaust and a cold air kit on a new Corvette without a download and not a Harley? What about when I go to Colorado and drive through the mountains at 10000ft are you trying to tell me that my stock ECM is not capable of compensating for this? An air cleaner and Exhaust will inprove performance, but the air flow through the engine is far more affected by cams and heads. We are only talking about MAYBE 2-3 horsepower from exhaust and air cleaner, but take your bike and dyno it at sea level and then ride it to Denver CO. and dyno it and you will see a 10 horsepower difference. please respond.

i hear there is a NEW race download from the dealer they said they had problems with the first download and the RACE download is way better because its not intended for use on the highway so EPA did not regulate this download ? can this be true ?

A question for anyone. I had the SERT installed on my Road King years ago. Since that time I have moved to S.C. and somewhere in the move, I either lost or misplaced the box with the CD and cables. If unable to find, does this mean in order to have the bike put on a dyno again, I will have to repurchase a new tuner.

ORIGINAL: BFMC

A question for anyone. I had the SERT installed on my Road King years ago. Since that time I have moved to S.C. and somewhere in the move, I either lost or misplaced the box with the CD and cables. If unable to find, does this mean in order to have the bike put on a dyno again, I will have to repurchase a new tuner.


Unfortunately, you will need a new Race Tuner. That sucks.

ORIGINAL: TedMan

Terry, thanks a bunch for starting this thread. I have been thinking about this issue for the last year. If you could indulge me, I would like to sum up what I've heard/read, and give you my present set-up for consideration.

First current set-up: 2005 FI Softail Deluxe. SE Stage 1 with K&N Filter and HD download. SE 16 gauge shotgun exhaust, but removed stock baffles and put in Thundermonsters.

I'm pretty sure (but as a previous poster noted, never sure when the performance bug will bite) that I will not do additional mods to the engine. With the Thundermonster baffles, I get a great sound, and have not sacrificed any power as far as I can tell. However, I do get some (not serious) popping on decel, and an occasional popping when shifting from 2nd to 3rd off relatively high RPM. I get what I consider minor surging in 1st/2nd gear if I am coasting. My sense is that I need a DFO/TFI, but can't say that I'm displeased with my current performance (last tank I got 49 mpg, maybe because I'm running lean?).

Does it sound like I'm running a little lean and should really consider a DFO? I'm actually more concerned with longer term affects on engine than outright performance, especially since I put in the Thundermonster baffles, although I think they provide enough backpressure. Thanks in advance for any input, or for that matter, any input from the forum as a whole.

Ted



If your intention is to not do any / limited mods to the engine in the furure, the TFI/DFO would do you just fine for less money and work than the race tuner. Both are good units but where you intend to go with mods is the difference.

ORIGINAL: blainem

Does anyone have experioence with a closed loop system like Terminal Velocity? My local tech guru says its the way to go now and will cost about the same as a PC install.?



I don't have hands on experience w/ the Terminal Velocity Kit but, I have quite a bit of time on the Daytona Twin-tec TFCI kit. It isn't recommended for stock or lightly modded bikes. If you have heads,cams & Hi-compression going on,well then this will work for you. I use this set-up on my 124" equipped Ultra & though I only have 600 or so miles or her the system is working as advertised & I'm currently waiting on my ECM to be shipped back from reprogramming for the Dual O2 sensor set-up. (I've had the D-TTec Closed loop system for about a year now, finally got around to installing it about 5 months ago) The system I had was their single O2 Sensor Kit. I'm sure this will work all that much better. Now, I will be able to optimize cylinders individually due to the fact that I have Rinehart Tru-duals & the BC Gerolamy Twin 50mm Dual Plenum T-Body.

deleted

What is the recomended A/F ratio? Had my bike dyno tuned today (has sert). Set to run at about 13.

Great thread and a lot of great info. Recently purchased third Harley but first with EFI. Stage I was pretty straight forward with Carb'd bikes. But this EFI stuff has a very steep learning curve.

Couple questions:

1. Is a mech and shop time mandatory to get a bike dialed in? Since there are a lot of canned maps, surely one will be close to my AC/exhaust combo. The SERT will give me feedback on all the critical stuff, such has BP, pulse, AF ratio, RPMs, timing, etc, right? Can't I DIY with my SERT and laptop at home?

2. Is there a thread here or a link somewhere that compares the major tuners out there (i.e. SERT, PCIII, Twin-Tec TCII) with features, ease of use, price, pros and cons? I understand the basic concepts for all of them. But are there subtle differences or capabilities that make one a better recommendation than another based on intended use? Depending on who's post you read, one is best and the others stink. But opinions abound.

3. Is one or another better for me based on my setup and intended use? I own a bone stock 2006 FXSTSI. Stage I plans are currently SEAC or Big sucker, and full exhaust swap. I haven't confirmed exhaust selection yet. I'm seriously looking at a 2-1 system from RB Racing but that's big bucks on top of everything else so the interim fix will likely be slip-ons or stock mufflers with punched baffles. Down the road I forsee a BB kit. I'm most concerned with giving the bike more air and making it run happier - low end and overall drivability are more important than max speed and/or Dyno-racing. I know I don't want a download. When shopping for tuners, I was leaning toward the PCIII, primarily because it was less expensive than the SERT and purported to be simplier to use. But after a conversation with local dealer service dept, I'm leaning hard toward the SERT. What's the best way to decide what the best tuner is for my needs?

Again, great thread!

Thanks, Joe

Terry If you can answ this for me It would be greatly appreciated> I was told by two motorcycle shopes that if i didnt add an up graded high flow Air cleaner or mess with the Air too fuel ratio then i didnt need a pwc or have a sert done to my bike.

i have installed SE mufflers to my F/ injection dyna street bob twin cam 88 I opened the baffle ramp up to about 40 % restriction in the baffle. I have no problems with bike geating hot or backfires. the sparkplugs are burning they way they should. so do I really neeed all the gadgets if I dont change air cleaner ior mess with the fuel???

Thanks Terry, that is another one worth printing out :D

Hello Terry, my name is Mike screen name atncass(my daughters names combined)I own a 02 FXSTBI VH big radius pipes baffles removed arlen ness big sucker stage two ac . I plan to buy the sert from chicago HD for $370 about. But here is my problem I do not trust my local HD stealer to do the tuning they said it could take up to 6 hours and the guy that does it just got back from school. I live in southern IN. and am willing to drive a couple hours but not much more. Can u recommend a proven tuner somewhere fairly close. I appreciate any advice given Mike

how good is the harley RACE download i dont intend to change anything other then some slip ons and a stage one air cleaner can i just go with the race download ? i hear out about lean conditions but the bike comes factory lean the download has to help some right ?

this is going on a 2006 street bob.

bought my 06 flhtci 11/05 in colorado I live in Wyoming
Installed S/E aircleaner and sampson slipons on show room floor.
dealer did stage one download.
first 6 months and 9,000 miles ran great, could do 110mph whenever I felt the need.
After that I had a power loss 5th gear. could not maintain speed let alone increase speed
up any hill or against headwind.
1 dealer put in new fuel injectors.
2nd dealer insisted a race tuner (naw!!! ran great for 6 months)
did the tuner took 6 hours was having trouble dialing in rear cylinder. finally got it he claimed.
But bike was not any better at the problem range 2800 -3100 rpms (68-72 mph about)
took back to dealer. they claimed engine was 30psi low on compression. HD authorized re ring.
they test drove it would NOT go over 80mph. gave it to me.
put 200 miles on rebuild. ran it. Max speed 82 flat and level but same power loss problem above.
still not fixed. Now they are insisting it's the pipes but Samson says no. besides ran great with them for 6 months!
So I'm in the middle.
Yesterday I passed a car, loss power, if I didn't take the ditch he would have ended up running me down.
Now have about $3000 in plastic damage.
But anyway I know how ECM's can use the advantage of fine tuning did it on my other two HD's
but something is basically wrong with this one
Guess it's time for a lawyer!!

Bump...Thought this one was worth the rebirth.

Love the theard, now I wonder if my TFI box is the right thing to have on my 06 fatboy withV&H bigshot staggerds with stage 1 and a/c? Would I be better off with a PC3 or sert. I just put the pipes on, and am flogging it from every light for now( it sounds so good I cannt help it)when it above 40 degrees. But am I going to have a problem with it over heating on longer runs this spring?Is the TFI what I should be running?

Revtech DFO on a stock 06 ultra

Blainem I have experience with the Terminal Velocity II. I have an 07 Dyna, and in the end it didn't work out for me. I sent it back for a refund.

The Bike ran good most of the time, fuel mpg was very good. But I had intermittent problems that wouldn't go away. Like the Idle would race when I jumped off the highway and came to a stop. It just didn't run consistent. It was a pain to install as I had to splice into the wiring harness.

ORIGINAL: Terry1955

ORIGINAL: mpscsx

I have read this entire thread and maybe I have missed it.....what is the HD download? I see where it makes the bike run lean (bad for pistons) and I see that everybody recommends not to get it, but what is the alternative if I have the SERT installed at a dealer?


The HD Download (Stage 1 or Flash) is a download sold by Harley to modify the EFI for Street Legal Harley pipes and Stage 1 Breather update. The fact that it is street legal means it must conform to EPA Regs which means LEAN. It just doesn't work on most upgrades.

Your alternative if you have a SERT is to have a custom map loaded in your bike's EFI which adjusts your AFR (air fuel ratio) to make it run properly with the added breathing (air intake) from the SE High Flow Stage 1 Breather upgrade and less restrictive exhaust. If you have any other questions just fire off a pm to me.



Just a note , Wanted to thank you for your intelligent information you've passed along here. I live in Danville and know Roger Gutteridge well. I read alot on these forums and finally got a explanation that clears it up for me. Thanks for the good read!

Hello from a new Harley owner, and rider for 43 years. I just wanted to inject a little ignorance to this discussion, and maybe get some answers.
I, just today, ordered the V&H short shot staggered exhaust for my '07 Sportster 1200 Custom. The shop here in California, Glendale Harley, said it would take two hours for the exhaust installation. an hour for the mapping, and another hour to install my previously bought K&N aircleaner to my stock intake. The bike is stock now, and I just turned 1000 miles on it. I bought it at the begining of March.
Thinking that when they did the 1000 mi service, they would automatically adjust the injection, I added the mods to the list of things toget done.Wrong!! Just to get a high flow intake, and exhaust, it's going to be right around a grand.
After seeing the dialog on this subject, I am now wondering what program the intend to use to re-map my injection.
I saw, on the V&H website, that they sell one, but I didn't know if I would need it more than just to tune the injection once after the installation of these simple two mods. From what I have read tonight, I now don't know.
I need to talk with the shop I guess, and find out what they intend to use to set the bike up to work correctly? I would appreciate any info, as I am taking the bike in as soon as they get the exhaust from the manufacturer, or dealer.
P.S. I Love the bike. First Harley, and I am Hooked. The next closest bike I ever owned, was an old Matchless, and aTriumph back in the late sixties. Nothing compares.

Hey Terry;
After reading just about anything I can get my hands on, I havesome questions for you. Have you had any experience, or info. on the V&H Fuel Pak? I am having short shots, and a K&N filterinstalled this week, and mapping done by the dealer. Should I consider this the final adjustments on my FI? Is this sufficient to do a lasting job? Should I go ahead and buy the fuel pak?
I am thinking that to keep the mixture right, it may be smart to just go ahead and bite the bullet, and spend the money on the fuel pak.
Any input would be greatly appreciated, as I don't have money to burn, but I also don't want to burn a piston, or cause myself more problems down the road. The bike is getting the 1000 mi. service at the same time, and I want to keep it running as well as possible for a long time. Thanks, C/C

Hi everyone, I am new to world of Harley motorcycling and I love it. I just bought my first HD a 2007 Dyna Low Rider about 2 months ago and have already ordered some Khrome Werks Slip Ons and the stage 1 air cleaner. I have a couple of questions I hope you all can help me understand the answers to: I went to the dealership today and asked about the upgrades I was making and was told I needed the SERT to have the ECM programming altered to compensate for the better breathing exhaust. The tech said I wouldn't need to Dyno tune the bike as he had a MAP built for my upgrades. What does this mean exactly and should I be concerened that he is possibly using a canned MAP? Are there any other specific questions I should ask before having the work completed? Thanks in advance for any help.

S.E.R.T. = Screaming Eagle Race Tuner
Let me break this down in simple terms for everybody, The O2 sensors on ALL fuel injected Harleys are narrow band, this means that they can makeSMALL adjustments to the air fuel mixture at idle and cruise RPM only. I have extensivly researched the benifits of Stock vs. Download vs. S.E.R.T. vs. Power Commander. Here are the results, even the manufactures of these products wont dispute these claims.
If you intend to modify your bike at all, you really need to adjust your fuel injection to go along with the modification.

Stock - already runs lean to help with emissions compliance any modification will result in an even leaner condition possibly resulting in engine damage.

Download - will correct the problem of running lean but will not optimize engine performance, and a battery or other electrical failure could result in the loss of the download. Any further modifications will require another download = more $.

Power Commander - Has an O2 sensor bypass that will allow you to run pipes without ugly o2 sensors, and O2 sensor bungs. A very good product, very tuneable, can be tuned by the purchaser without any additional equipment (not recommended). On a dyno can almost be tuned as good as a S.E.R.T.

S.E.R.T. - The most expensive, butFor Harley Davidson, hands down the best product on the market, the most adjustable, and WILL result in the best running engine that your modifications will allow, provided your dyno tech knows what he is doing.

The Power Commander and the S.E.R.T. SHOULD be tuned to your bike on a dyno, this is not cheap! But let me tell you from first hand experience, it is worth the money. It was hard for me to afford, and I have had (and lost) a download, upgraded to a S.E.R.T. with a professional dyno tune and the difference is night and day.

Your shop MAY have Dynoed an identical bike to yours with the same modifications and they MAY offer you that download on your S.E.R.T. to save you money, but be aware, this will probably work fine, may be perfect, but EVERY bike runs slightly different and the ONLY way to guarantee the perfect air fuel mixtureand spark timing at every throttle position and every RPM is with the S.E.R.T. and a professional dyno tune by a compitent technitian.

NOTE: I am NOT a Harley Technition and I have nothing to gain from these claims. I learned these facts by doing research and first hand experience. I hope this info will help you all out.

Great stuff in this thread, it has answered a lot of questions.

whats your views on Cobras Fi2000R?

Terry, I have a 2007 Ultra Classic, Screamn eagle slipons tour mufflersand stage 1. Had the race fueler, not tuner, installed as I have no intentions of doing big bores, etc. Gave about 4 HP and 3 lbs of trq. but I now have an occasional backfire and a slight hesitation on throttle at idle. I am going to take it back for further adjustment on dyno. They told me the fueler can only do so much. Will the tuner work on the 07, non CA. emissions? The bike was fine without the fueler, except for it running so lean.

I had a 06 Electra Glide Classic with the S+S tear drop air cleaner and S+S Slip On Mufflers. I got the PCIII and about 1 1/2 hours on the dyno ($55.00 per hour for dyno time).
That bike ran great, and made good power for the whole time I had it.
If I was to make big mods (bored cylinders and high flow heads, big cam lift ect.) I would need a SERT due to the additional cells for fuel and timing adjustments. But, for the average stage 1, I think the Power Commander was fine.

I wrecked that bike and replaced it with a 07 Road Glide which is a different animal due to the o2 sensor system and the closed map.
I rode that bike home, and immedeately installed a set of Rinehart True Duals, a S+S single bore air induction, and a Thundermax ECM with the Auto Tune Moduel.
The Thundermax system constantly tunes your bike by a certain percent of AFR (Air Ruel Ratio) and timming adjustments from the base map, every time you start it up and run it up to temp.
You download a base map that is close to what you are running for mod's much like a Power commander, and the auto Tune adjusts from there. If I go with Big Cylinders, Cams, Heads down the road, I will just download a base map suited to my mods, and let the Thundermax tune away as I drive.
Yes there are times when I might want to go into the map and adjust with my PC. I did it just recently to get my milage up in the crusing range. I adjusted my base map AFR in the cells related to crusing RMP's and throttle positions, and it did the trick. I also made some adjustments to richen the lower or almost closed throttle positions to tone down some decel pop, and that worked fine also.

In conclusion, I had no problems with a PCIII on a 06 Bagger with a few stage 1 mods, and a little dyno time. I rode 13000 miles with that bike in the mountains, and at average sea levels with all kinds of fuel quality. The price for the stage 1 stuff I have mensioned for that bike with the dyno time was not bad, less than $1000.00.

My 07 Bagger is running very good, with good power using the Thundermax auto tune system, and is running good temp wise. Any mods I make in the future will not require dyno adjustments, just some understanding on my part as to what I need my bike to do, and how to get and adjust the propper base map.
The Thundermax system is not cheap though, $850.00 retail ( I paid less, but it was barley used, and I got it from a bud that does big motor mods). That and a set of Reinhart Duals (over $800.00) and the fancy S+S single bore air induction, and now it's starting to add up.
But, I'm done, and I saved some dyno time.

If you don't understand the systems and concepts, you must rely on a good shop and tuner. Your best recource for finding them are your friends who also ride. Talk to your buds, and get there input on who helped them get there bikes modified and running good.
Not all HD's are created equal. Im my area, the two shops that I deal with are of two totally different opinions on what ECM Mods to go with, and even thier dyno's and related equipment are different.

Ask around and get a lot of input form people and go with the best recomoended shops and systems.
It's all you can do if you dont personally have a lot of knowlage on the subject, or personal experince to draw on.

This is all JMO.

Thanks for the post Terry!

It's an excellent read. [sm=smiley20.gif]

(quote)
"The Dyno Jet Power Commander does not alter the stock rev limiter. That is why
many people use the Stage 1 Download along with it. The Stage 1 Download
raises the rev limiter to 6200 RPM."

Terry-
I just installed the Power Commander III USB Via a DynoJet and a darn good tuner (John w/Rolling Thunder). It has Rev Extender and raised my Redline to 6,200 RPM. I don't know allot about this stuff (does anybody?) But I know my $20k 07 Heritage Softailnow runs 100 times better than it did while I argued with dealer that it needed some sort of mod. Although I can't speak personally for the SEAT I have 2 friends that have them and arehappy. Point here is, either one will put you light years ahead of what's coming out of the factory for 2007 ! No more surging and bucking at all speeds, burn't thighs from the heat or pinging constantly. (just my MHO) By the way- this thread is very educational!:)

Anyway to bypass the SERT marriage to a bike bit?

Hi, I'm new to this site. hope I'm putting this message in correctly. Joe, I don't know why the dealer you went to told you you needed an ECM but $1,200.00 for an ECM, SERT, dyno time and taxes doesn't seem high. You didn't say if your evo was stock or big bore. If it is a big bore and you have it race-tuned make sure you install the red injectors into the throttle body. Marelli's use pulse-width and the black injectors are not good enough for big-bore tuning. See it all the time. Long live evo's! desertrat

hi everybody,

i just picked up my third H-D last mon (an 07 road king) and have 803 miles on it as of today. i went to the dealer which i purchased it from, Vreelands H-D in bloomsburg, PA to make an appointment for the 1000 mile oil change. along with the oil change i wanted the S E stage 1 air cleaner, a set of Rush slip ons and the recalibration that i knew would be needed. the parts manager started talking about a sert calibration and how it would be unique to my bike and then the 489.00 washingtons it would cost me for the sert. i left there still not quite understanding what the sert was, only knowing they would not do the upgrades without it.

to make a long story short.... thanks first to terry 1955 and to everyone who contributed to this thread with questions and answers. when i take my bike back in for the upgrades i'll be more confident in what is going to be done to my ride. i'm no longer afraid of my EFI:D. i'll be back to this part of the forum frequently.

savvar

This is all very confusing to me as I am new to EFI Bikes. Not new to Harleys, just fuel injected ones.Does all of the info in this thread apply to a 1997 EFI Road King?

I have a few questions/concerns:

(1) I just bought a 97 Road King EFI...I have not picked it up yet. The current owner does not know much about it and has ridden it for about 2000 miles...It has drag pipes and a kuryaken hypercharger but is otherwise stock. with 45k miles on it. I don't know if everything was calibrated when these mods were made. The bike starts and runs great. Is it possible to just look at the plugs to see if it is running too rich or too lean....I know that may sound barbaric but I don't have hundreds of dollars to spend at a dealership to have it evaluated. So if it running fine and the plugs look good should I just not worry about it?

(2)I would also like to but a stock air cleaner on it if I can find one. I have heard bad things about the hypercharger...any thoughts? (If anyone has a take-off around for sale, let me know)

(3) I don't like drag pipes and will eventually replace them...will I need to have it checked then? Or can I judge it buy how it is running and "reading" the plugs?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Hi all,
Note sure if this is the correct area to ask this EFI/SERT question?
I have an 2007 Fatboy with Vance and Hines big shots staggered SE AC, and SERT.
I had the bike dyno tuned at 1000k and the bottom of teh dyno print out shows max power 74.21 and max torque 84.21 the air fuel flat line at 13.2 pretty much.

the bike has good response pops when backing off speed rpm at times. My MPG only 41-43 half city and freeway.

Of note I see at the bottom of my dyno print out SEAC, Rinehart shorty**** Does this mean that they used a MAP for Rinehart pipes and not the V&H pipes I have and if so..... what differenc if any would that make?

Also thinking of going to K&N Air filter taller unit that the SE unit from Drag Specialties and wonder if that will affect bike performance air fuel conditon to run lean.... :-( ? and thinking of runing Thunder Monsters .

Any comments regarding my MPG?
Do I need to get re-dyno because the dyno MAP was with Rinehart and not my V&H pipes?
Will I need to re-dyno becuase I change my air filter to K&N and then if I go to Thunder Monster baffles?

Damn EFI anyway.............

Thanks,

Mark

I PREVIOUSLY REMOVED THE BAFFLES ON MY '07 NIGHTSTER AND EVERTHING RAN FINE. RECENTLY I REMOVED THE SECOND MUFFLER TUBE TO GIVE THE BIKE A DEEPER SOUND. AFTER RUNNING THE BIKE FOR A SHORT TIME AND UPON RESTARTING THE FUEL PRIMER STOPPED MAKING THAT PURR SOUND BEFORE IGNITION AND THE ENGINE ICON STOPPED SHOWING UP. SO FAR, THE BIKE HAS STARTED W/O A PROBLEM AND THE FUEL PRIMERDOES PURR WHEN I JUST BUMP THE START BUTTON AND THE BIKE DOESN'T START. THE BIKE HAS 4366 MILES ON IT. I'M WONDERING IF MAYBE MY ECM NEEDS RE-PROGRAMMING. ANY THOUGHTS?

ok....I understand the importance of remapping. I also understand (at least I will concede to it as though I grasp the point but am not sure if whoever posted this is right) that the oxygen sensor(s) as in my 07 sg have a "narrow band" or something like that as far as correction in the ecm goes, therefore the need for the remap. I already had screaming eagle slip ons on my bone stock sg. today I went to american harley in leominster, ma with the sole intent to purchase a stage one filter, and a SERT, and whatever else I needed to continue my modification process. Theservice manager told me there is no need for the SERT, a Power Commander, or anything else until I modify internally. I told him I had the slip ons, so maybe had I said I was going to a true dual system he would have prompted me to buy the SERT also, who knows. Anyway, I came home, installed the stage 1 filter, and nothing else....and thoroughly enjoyed tooling along the curvy secondary roads of southern new hampshire with no trouble all, at all engine speeds. The engine actually felt cooler than normal, but I will take for now the fact that it was a rather cool day compared to all my other riding days thus far this year. Any input?....am I killing my engine without even knowing?..please let me know and thanks in advance. I am new here, but am already falling in love with the forum. The members are lucky to have knowledgeable, such as Terry to learn from. thanks again. :D scott

So, If I am unhappy with gas mileage I am getting (34-36) can I tweak this myself?

SERT with Vance and Hines true duals, Vance and Hines Ovals and Scremin' Eagle AC.

Toad

Hi Terry, another product that is now on sale here in OZ is the Arlen Ness Big shot efi tuner which is a plug-n-play unit(now available for 2007 big twins). They claim that it is a load based unit and does not work off of the throttle position. Have you or anybody have more info or experience regarding this type of product?
Thanks

Gerry
2007 FXST

Hello all I am new to this forum
Is there a SERT mapthread
Also a Dyno sheet thread we can look at and talk about
Just trying to make sure no one gets ripped off
Dyno tuner for 11 yrs
Later

ORIGINAL: Terry1955

I can't understand why so many dealers don't like to use the SERT. Harley is trying to force them to use all Harley parts and get away from after market too so you would think it would be hard to get a dealer to install a PCIII. There are some good dealers out there.


My local dealer told me outright that MoCo is "in bed" with Dyno. They use their eqipment and are pushing their parts. When I told them I had the V&H Fuel pak on my bike, they said right away that it's junk and I should buy the PCIII. I found a non-dealer that specializes in Harley to do my work.

Hi, you mentioned you went home from Harley in Leominster with the Stage 1 airfilter and was told you don't need a SERTor PC111 on your SG. You are running SE slipons and airfilter kit now without remapping? You also said your bike is running"cooler". I have D&D slipons recently installed on my 2007 FXST and I have done 1000 kms here in Australia.I am also saving fora Stage1 AC and probably a tuner. Man, with the standard air filter, I'm going crazy with the decel popping although the bike runs smooth and I have not experienced any surging or hard starting.It's winter down here so I can't really comment about running temps.Do you experience this decel popping and do you or do you not have PC111 installed?(your bike description)

Gerry
2007 FXST(stock):)
D&D slipons.....

Does the 07 street bob have the same lean condition as the 06 street bob. i also read that the dealer can activate a program that causes the bike to run cooler at idle when needed. newby, thanks

here's my dime, 07 street bob----i added S/E slip-on's and took the packing out of them. That's the only mod to the engine. Runs great but at times it backfires on decel. Started noticing that it was worse if i bought gas at a no name station. Sometimes it doesn't do it at all. Could it be bad gas? So i started checking the color of the plugs and found them to be a gray color even when it was popping on decel. Hmmmmm

I have read somewhere that the EFI bikes are programed to run lean to meet EPA standards. Does anyone know if that is true? I am going to put rhinehart true duals on my 07 road king should I take it somewhere for mapping or should I invest in the things I need to do it myself?

Terry, I'm a newbie to this, longtime HD owner, new to my '01 Ultra Classic, with M-M EFI, which HD dealers say is crapola. I bought a SERT but can't figure out how to use it, to tune or tweak my EFI. I don't have a laptop, but I could possible take my desktop out to the garage......

Any ideas?

TIA, Gatorwalt
USMC Semper FI


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I bought an 08 SERT and had H-D do the install and the bike's top end was 90mph. I took it to another dealer that did my install on my 07 SG because it runs a lot better and they said they would have to charge me if any re-tuning needed to be done. I thought it would only take about 15 minutes so wasn't worried about itbut it took 2 hours of riding and tweaking it to get it right according to them so there was 200.00 dropped. One dealer installed it and another dealer tweaked, I didn't think I should need to pay anything since it was Harley but I wasn't totally suprised. Anyway I loaded this software for 08 on my computer and the disk is exactly the same as for the 07. Why is H-D telling us we needed to wait for the 08 SERT's. The only difference is the wireless throttle, what's the difference between an 08 tuner and an 07? Also, should I try and recoup my re-tuning money from my dealeror call the 1st dealer and complain. I had it installed at a different dealer from where I bought the bike and normally use because the other dealer hada SERT and my regular dealer didn't.I'm not sure it's still right so now I'm thinking I should just get it dyno-ed somewhere here in Plano, Tx. Any ideas and thoughts would be appreciated.

I didn't read this whole thread but I still don't get why it has to be this way. I changed, heads, cam, intake, exhaust, injectors, throttle body etc, etc, etc on my 1986 Mustang and it was fine. You can even dump a 351 in there with no need to tune. Yes tuning will help it on drivability etc but is not necessary. In my opinion it's Harley just gouging for more money. I'm glad my bike is carb'd.

- hi.

- anyone used adjustble fuel pressure regulators with
their power/efi upgrades ?

.

Desertrat: I've got an '01 Ultra with S/E air flow and slipons, and Magnetti EFI, which I have probs tuning and keeping tuned. Which injectors should I have in it? How about if I add S&S cams and gear drives?

Semper Fi
"We live in the land of the free, because of the brave."

#1 The stock ecm setting, with stock mufflers and intake, should be set up to handle changes in air flow by the factory. By that I mean if I live in an area at high altitude, like Denver, and take a ride out to the coast, the ecm should be able to compensate for the increase in air mass. Likewise, if I live at the coast and head for the mountains. The air mass will also change when the temperatures drop, and the ecm should be able to compensate. So my question is why can’t the ecm compensate when you change the exhaust and intake? All that is happening is you are increasing the air mass flow rate.
I have heard that all the Stage 1 download does is open up the control bandwidth on the ecm so it has a greater range ofcontrol when you change the exhaust and intake.

BTW I have a 05 FLHRPI with stage 1, intake, and stock mufflers with the baffle disks removed. I also have Dobecks TFI

#2 I have been toying with the idea of buying an O2 sensor similar to the LM-1 used by a lot of car tuners. There is a write up on another website (nightrider) that explains it better than I can. What I’m hoping to do is
A. Find out what the Air/Fuel ratio is with all the pots on the TFI at zero,
B. Set the pots where I think the bike is running better, and find out what the A/F ratio is, Then adjust until I do. The best A/F should be around 14.7 : 1
C. Set the pots a little richer and see if I can get some more HP.
What I’m hoping to discover is the bike is running lean with the pots at zero (A), I’m getting the best fuel economy at (B), and I can get a few more HP at (C) for poker runs.

Has anybody tried this before, with the O2 sensor (LM-1 or similar)? Is it even worth it, or am I wasting my time and money?

Terry IHAVE A 07 STREET GLIDE WITH BUB 7 TRUE DULES WITH 02 SEN SEAC AND SERT DID I REALY NEED TO ADD THE SERT SINCE THE 02 SEN SHOULD COMPENSATE IS THIS TRUE OR FALSE

Hi guys, could you help me with a problem. I live in the UK and i want to wire my turn signals into side or running lights , Here in the UK its illegal , I think you might have a different loom???. Thanks

Ok I get i need a tuner. But does anybody have a opinions on ny certian brand? I'm leaning towards a terrys components terminal velocity

I read the entire thread and didn't see anyone with my situation. I purchased a 2004 Wide Glide in Sept. 2007 and it already had SE A/C and some type muffler change. Is there any way to know if there have been necessary changes to the ECM or not? Fuel mileage is about 42-45 mpg mixed highway and city. Very rarely is there any popping on decel and even then it will only pop once. Are there any other tell-tell signs to look for? This is my first HD and first Injected.

Ok, I have been constantly hearing that if you change the exhaust and airbox then its necessary to remap the ECMwith either an aftermarket device such as the V&H FuelPak, Powercommander, etc. or go with the Harley Race tuner. I have an 07 FLSTC with Rush slipons and plan on adding the Stage 1 SC air intake. Of course my dealer is pushing the Race Tuner and everone seems to pretty much agree that is is a good product. However the dealer says an hour of labor is all it will take so it sounds like they are planning on using a ready made map and not putting it on a dyno. My question is though in the April edition of American Iron there is an article on page 186 where they replace the stock air intake with an S&S quick set up kit and a set of S&S slip on mufflers. The author of the article states that the stock ECM will automatically readjust itself after approximately 15 minutes on a dyno with no adjustments, aftermarket devices, or a race tuner. So if this is true then why would I need to purchase a Race Tuner or aftermarket device since my Rush Slipons and SC stage 1 air intake are not that much different than the S&S slipons and air intake???
Confused!
Dave

Hello Terry,
Very informative thread. My problem is that every Harley dealer I've spoken with tells me that a SERT is for off road use only and will void the engine warranty. There are one or two shops here in Ontario that will work with me, but they also warn that if I am a thousand miles away and break down, the majority of dealerships will not honor the warranty with the SERT installed.
My new Ultra will have the 103" Stage II upgrade with cams, airbox etc. The exhaust will be Kerkers with 6" slash cut SE end caps. The dealer wants to install a V & H Fuel Pak. The other dealer I've been talking to says this will also void the warranty. Is there any way to provide the right fuel management system for my 08 big bore and not end up with warranty problems?

I have been told that any SERT that has previously been married to any other bike can be used to data log any other bike with the use of a laptop and a ride for about 20 min. With that data log and a good third party log graphing program, is it real easy to see if the stock ECU is homing in on a good tune or is having trouble. Remember to turn on 02 logging before you start the log. True top end testing really ony reliable with a $400 wide band or a dyno. Groose lean errors can be quite easy to find this way. Too fat is difficult to see.This is about the only good way to verify themidrange.

Non o2 equiped bike arestuck withseat of the pants feel and plug readingor draining your wallet at the dealer andcounting on the tallent of the dyno guy. If all he wants to do is twist the throttle once to 100% and give you a graph of your HP and torque curve and AFR, you need to find a real tuner.

AW

Terry,
First of all, I'm real glad I found your post on thissubject. I have been wanting to become more educated on these types of mods, as I too want my bike to perform at it's peak (what I can afford anyway.) I have an'07 Road Glide, stock except for Rush slipons. I want to add an AC and a SERT. What I am confused about is, everybody says don't get the download. Okay I get that but does that mean any download or just the one from HD? Where does one go to get the professional tune? Can you still have it done at the dealership if your not using their download? I've got about $750. to spend, is that gonna be enough? I hope you don't mind me picking your brain but it is my first trip to the well so to speek. Oh yeah, how key is true duals vs. stock headers when considering this setup?
Thanks again.
Joe


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A good HD dealership is the place to go, the download is kinda a generic fix, and will not take into account any quirks that your particular bike may have. Also, if your battery dies, or you get an electrical short i.e. from a battery charger you can lose your download. The SERT is the way to go IMHO, it is a Harley part, if it fails Harley will replace it. Also common sense dictates that HD will be more apt to uphold your factory warranty if you usethe SERTinstead of aftermarket tuners. Besides the SERT is a great part. Now to answer the question why do I need a SERT, or download, or other tuner. The O2 sensors are narrow band sensors on Harleys. This means that they really only work at certain RPM's i.e. cruise speed and idle, but they do not allow the computer to constantly tune the engine the way the wide band sensors sensors would on say a Corvette. That is why you have to go through all this headache when adding performance parts to a HD. On a Corvette, the wide band sensors would allow the stock computer to compensate for all but the most extreme modifications. They are making some wide band kits for Harleys, if they work well (I haven't heard much about them yet) these will constantly tune the bike for you based on atmospheric conditions and elevation, as well as tune for basic performance mods. All you will have to do is an initial dyno run to get the computer close, and it will do the rest. I kind wish I had a wide band kit, I have the SERT with a good dyno tune and it runs great (like night and day over stock). Hope this answers some questions.

So I have an 08 FLHX. I buy a SERT First 32107-01L ?
And cables 32108-06 ?
I have a great laptop.
Am I on the right road so far?

rocknrod, good to hear from a retired Master Chief, I was in the Navy for 15 years prior to joining the Coast Guard, I will retire in four more years. I dont know the process for tuning a S.E.R.T. without a dyno (if it can be done at all), one thing for sure, you would need the download from someone with the exact same bike and the exact same modifications to make it work. And then that other bike might not still run exactly the same as yours causing lean or rich fuel problems at different rpm's. You have a beautiful bike, you have spent alot of money on it, trust me when I say "spend the money having a professional (competent) tuner dyno tune your bike" it's worth the money, your bike will run cooler, make more horsepower and torque, and may even get better gas mileage. It may sting a little to shell out the extra cash, but once you feel the inprovement, you wont regret it.:)

In Houston, TX, who has the best dyno techs (which store)?

Well, this is a very interesting thread.

I am having some issues with my 07 Street Bob, which is my first Harley and first EFI bike. It has the SE stage 1 along with VH Shortshots Staggered and the Power Commander. Initially after purchase, about 2 months ago, the bike was running very rough cold and would frequently stall at idle (sometimes even hot). I took it into the dealer I purchased it at and they located a leak in the intake manifold seal and replace it then tuned it. Afterward it ran great for about 2 weeks, now it is back to running somewhat rough cold and intermittently stalls hot. The dealer I purchased the bike from installed the upgrades for the previous owner. I have been talking to another dealer who states I need the SERT to resolve this issue.

From what I am reading the Power Commander should be able to get the tuning 'good enough' for cruising, is this correct or do I need to shell out and get the SERT?

Thanks in advance,

James

Is this thread really meant for ongoing discussion? The title and location would suggest it is intended primarily for information.

Naturally, a shop is going to suggest the device they are most comfortable with is the best thing for you to use. Both systems are more than suitable for your intended purpose. However, neither system will effectively cover up an elemental problem. You need to find out if the same problem which was actually fixed once has recurred, and if so, why. All the running gear must be in good working order.

It is raining outside right now and I do not feel like going for a ride, so I might as well rain on your parade a little and spread the joy. Has it occurred to you that perhaps this is an ongoing situation from way back and may be part of the reason the original owner no longer has the bike? It might ultimately prove to be a flaky sensor or something else equally simple, yet difficult to pin down.

Hi,
&nbsp\\;
I am newbie here, EFI bikes need to be tune because original map is&nbsp\\;made for pass emission control regulation.
&nbsp\\;
But the bike need more than that,&nbsp\\;but any chages are illegal for use on public road, also void warranty.
&nbsp\\;
Instead of SERT, I installed ThunderMax ECU. You can see the picture here http://bengkelsepedamotor.wordpress.com/2008/03/09/41/
&nbsp\\;
&nbsp\\;
&nbsp\\;
&nbsp\\;
&nbsp\\;

Well Glen,

It looks like I am finding out more why it keeps going south. It appears it is not the Power Commander hosing it up. My scheduled appointment for it to be looked at was today and I get a call around lunch stating that the fuel pump needs to be replaced (again) because there were metal filings in the tank that trashed it.

The tech said it could be either from the gas during a fill up or from the tank. Since I gas up at the same time my wife does and her Fat Boy (EFI) is running fine I suspect it is the tank. It is a Harley custom paint tank that was installed by the same dealer shortly before I bought it. I am inquiring on obtaining a new tank since this one seems to be eating fuel pumps. I still have several months left on the factory warranty so right now it is just an inconvenience, but soon it will hit the pocketbook.

Anyway thanks for the advice on other items that could be the cause of the issue. Based on other posts I have read and the heated discussions on which is better, SERT or Power Commander, I was looking there first.

Thanks again,

James

ORIGINAL: workformetoo

In Houston, TX, who has the best dyno techs (which store)?

&nbsp\\;
in Houston as well and wondering that as well as i may end up getting a SERT.&nbsp\\;&nbsp\\;actually wondering alot more than that.&nbsp\\; my bike is 3 days old, stock, and probably will stay that way for some time to come (2008 FXSTSSE2).&nbsp\\; i haven't seen this question asked so i will give it a shot here on this old thread and maybe somewhere else if it doesn't get reponses.
&nbsp\\;
i had the chance to spend the last month on this site and the CVO one in preparation to getting my SE Springer.&nbsp\\; the lean running condition and its resultant increase in heat has been well documented on these boards&nbsp\\;and i have read every thread beginning to end.&nbsp\\; iv'e been riding my new bike for 2 days now and it seems awefully hot.&nbsp\\; i wait til the evening but its hesitating off idle at lights and having some popping on decelleration.&nbsp\\; it all makes me wonder though if anyone puts on an SE Race Tuner for an unmodified engine simply to get rid of the lean condition perfectly.&nbsp\\; this was an old thread and Niterider probably wasn't around then but how effective would simply putting on a pair of XIED's to control the heat and popping.&nbsp\\;
&nbsp\\;
i'll buy a SERT if i must, and at some point i may get more free flowing pipes.&nbsp\\; i haven't even had a chance to meet up with any other bikes yet&nbsp\\;to hear what i like, for now my pipes in my garage and through tunnels sound pretty badass.&nbsp\\;
&nbsp\\;
&nbsp\\;

If you are going to leave the fueling and breathing completely stock, then I would suggest a set of the standard IEDs as a stopgap measure while you further research your options.

I recommend you read at least http://www.hdforums.com/m_3559276/mpage_1/tm.htm#3562467

hey chainring, you're wondering about the heat on a bike that's only three days old? no need to be worried, everything in there is tight, and needs to be broken in. twin cams are very efficient at radiating heat, more so than the evos. i have an o 8 streetglide, and it also ran what i thought was quite hot when it was new. i've now got almost ten thousand miles on it, and it's as cool running as my 02 lowrider. i also changed over to full synthetic royal purkle stuff too, helped ten percent on mpg, so therefore efficiency improved also. seems to run cooler with the rp also. sure shifts much nicer and seems smoother now also. just a break in issue with your bike being only 3 days old, surely.