Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned
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Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 12/3/2005 5:57:47 PM
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Terry1955
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For all the people that don't quite understand why you need a Race Tuner (SERT) or Power Commander (PCIII USB) for your Harley please read this. This was not written by Harley (who makes the SERT-Race Tuner). I favor the Race Tuner but will concede that the PCIII is also a good piece of equipment. But PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE...Don't use the HD download
Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned
The need for "re-mapping" a fuel injected bike only arises when internal and/or
external engine components are replaced with non stock components, i.e. air
cleaners and exhaust systems. When components are changed on an engine to
any non stock or "performance" part you alter the way that engine moves air in
and out, thus altering the Volumetric Efficiency. If the V.E. is altered the stock
ECM fuel settings continue to deliver fuel at a base-line rate unaware that the air
delivery has changed. With the fuel delivery unchanged and the fact that this
engine is receiving more air there is a lean condition created that will most likely
cause engine damage due to higher heat levels in the combustion chamber. A VTwin
engine is just that, two separate cylinders in a "V" configuration which
generally speaking will cause these cylinders to flow air at a different efficiency
rate. This effect is mostly caused by a non tuned exhaust system that flows air at
different rates from front to rear thus changing the volumetric efficiency.
With the advancements and complexity of today's fuel injection systems
simplicity is not necessarily advantageous. The need to compensate for fuel
delivery to a modified engine ideally would be performed by the original engineer
or programmer of the ECM since they would be the one most knowledgeable on
this system. Since this avenue is not available to the average consumer, a
method of putting a "Band-Aid" type programmer (HD Download) to compensate
for the modifications is the easiest solution, however it is not necessarily the best.
Installing a "Band-Aid" on a system with this complexity can sometimes create a
whole new realm of problems that the original engineers could not have
anticipated.
The Dyno Jet Power Commander unit with it's 126 fuel adjustment cells and 126
spark timing cells offer simplicity that cannot always compensate for the high
demands of a modified V-Twin engine. Especially when the cylinders have a
different V.E. rate, this also offers a "Band-Aid" solution at best.
The H-D EFI Race Tuner Kit offers 220 Volumetric Efficiency adjustment cells for
each cylinder along with an Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) adjustment table that has an
additional 120 cells for a total of 560 fuel adjustment cells. There are also 220
cells for each cylinder to compensate for spark timing, fuel enrichment cells for
cold start and cranking enrichment for easier starting. With these extra tables and
cell adjustments there are over 1000 adjustments that can be made. Also
consider the advantages with having the ability to set your idle mixture as well as
idle speed and having access to your own rev limiter which is adjustable from
4000 to 7500 RPM.
___________________________________________________________________
The Dyno Jet Power Commander does not alter the stock rev limiter. That is why
many people use the Stage 1 Download along with it. The Stage 1 Download
raises the rev limiter to 6200 RPM.
< Message edited by terryt1955 -- 1/16/2006 11:48:28 PM >
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 12/3/2005 6:11:26 PM
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ThudMeister
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It's not just EFI bikes, the EXACT same thing happens to carb bikes, we just have to change jets.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 12/3/2005 6:25:30 PM
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Terry1955
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I know Thud, it's just that you guys aren't having the problems that us EFI guys are having. Carbs are so simple to adjust or modify compared to the Fuel Injection. No more tinkering in the garage. Gotta have a laptop, dyno, etc. etc............
Terry
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 12/3/2005 7:40:53 PM
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ThudMeister
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Once you have the purchased all the EFI goodie$$, loaded the software on your laptop, and install your own dyno, its easy.
I was shocked how much I had to spend on my first EFI bike, and I am a gadget freak.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 12/3/2005 8:21:13 PM
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Grover
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OK if a man buys a HD Race Tuner, can the indy shops dyno it or do I take my bike to a HD stealer with a dyno?
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 12/3/2005 9:57:01 PM
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Terry1955
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Grover,
Any certified dyno tech that has the HD Sert software (actually he should be able to use yours) and understands it should be able to dial in your bike. I'm lucky that I have a good dealer with a great dyno tech.
Terry
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 12/3/2005 11:21:06 PM
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Grover
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Does the software come with the SERT?
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 12/4/2005 12:09:05 AM
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Terry1955
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Yes Grover,
The software comes with the SERT. When you get the map you want it is saved on your computer. You can pull it back up and modify it at any time. There are also a ton of canned maps (kinda like PCIII) where you can pick the closest one to your modifications and just download it to your bike. When you unplug the SERT from your bike you leave nothing hanging on. Very clean. The SERT is registered to your bike and can't be used on anyone elses bike.
Terry
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 12/6/2005 11:07:25 AM
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airfuel
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Great article, just a clarification.
The PC3 usb model has the ability to map 225 individual cells per cylinder. (maximize map resolution)
It also has the ability to map each cylinder individually so you can take care of the differing VE from front to rear. (advanced map)
It also has the ability to do the same with regard to timing with each cylinder.
Both are great tuning tools but in the end it comes down to who tunes them.
John
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 12/6/2005 1:28:51 PM
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bobcowan
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I don't have my new bike yet, and havn't played with the racer tuner yet, so I could be off base here. If I'm wrong, terry, please correct me. Over the last year, I have have been gaining experiance with aftermarket EFI. I have installed an 8 stack EFI with a haltech computer on my V8 Ford. I realize there are a lot of differances between a water cooled V8 and an air cooled V2, but it seems that the concepts would be similar.
Moving from a carb to EFI is more complicated. There's a learning curve. There are also differant tools and parts you need to do the tuning. But there seems to be some misconceptions about that.
1. EFI is easier. I can change the jetting without ever taking off my seat belt. Drive a little, punch a few keys, drive a little, punch a few keys. It doesn't take long to dial it in for perfect drivability. You can easily go too far and make it too lean/rich. But then in a couple of key strokes you're back in the right direction.
2. You don't need a dyno. Actually, I've not found a dyno to be overly helpfull for a street vehicle. But a good A/F meter is really helpfull.
3. Data logging is extremly valuable for the street driver/rider. You can see where your A:F is where you ride most. Then you tap a few keys and make the appropriate changes. Better than a dyno, IMO.
4. Closed loop is the ideal. To have the comuter adjust for changing situations is a huge leap in technology. But that only goes so far. Max adjustment is only 15-20%. And you don't want it for WOT. And if you have a radical cam it doesn't work well at idle, either. But for general driving/riding this is the way to go, no question.
5. Same goes with timing. Add timing until it pings, then back off a couple of degrees. It would be nice to make changes according to climate, altitude, etc. The problem I see is that you set it for ideal conditions to make most power, then have to back off because something changed. But you're on the road and don't have your lap top. A smart rider will be somewhat conservative, I would think.
Like I said, I don't have my new bike yet. But I'm looking foreward to playing with the new computer system.
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 12/12/2005 9:13:56 PM
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Scout
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Terry, I just came from my dealer, (MC, not dope) and he says that the Race tuner can be installed initially in two hours, and then re set every time I do a change in 1/2 hour. Is this true in your experiance.
You know I don't trust them, since they are the same idiots that insisted i needed a HD download.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 12/12/2005 9:27:59 PM
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Terry1955
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Joe,
The initial install should take 1-2 hours. The actual tuning depends on how good your mechanic is. To really tweak it right you need a dyno. It also depends on what kinda upgrades you have. My Rineharts take longer because of the way they are designed. Once they are tuned correctly they run great. I would not want a new mechanic trying to do it though. A simple air cleaner upgrade with some SE Slipons should not take as long. The race tuner has maps installed on a CD Rom and on the Harley website that can be matched to your upgrades. Once that is downloaded it can be tweaked to adjust any little problems you are having. The simpler your upgrades, the simpler the tune.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 1/16/2006 6:59:20 PM
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Terry1955
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Bump
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 1/16/2006 11:13:51 PM
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soos
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Still dazed and confused here. All these upgrades for SERTs and downloads? For what end result?? More power?, Speed? Increased MPG? So I can grunt louder than the other guy? Just a need to spend more $$$$$$$???? Honestly I really don't get it.
Jim
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 1/17/2006 12:17:31 AM
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JamieWG
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quote:
ORIGINAL: soos
Still dazed and confused here. All these upgrades for SERTs and downloads? For what end result?? More power?, Speed? Increased MPG? So I can grunt louder than the other guy? Just a need to spend more $$$$$$$???? Honestly I really don't get it.
Jim
Increased speed, better mileage and more power are just by-products of a well tuned engine. It's really more for the health of your engine. If you modify the intake or the exhaust, you are changing the amount of air that the engine pumps. In order to have a good running engine, you have to compensate for this by altering the fuel/air mixture and possibly the timing. Sometimes you need to adjust the idle speed or the way the cold engine enrichment is set. On a computer controlled EFI engine, the only way to do this is to alter the electronic signals that are sent to the engine from the ECM. If you don't have a properly tuned bike, you may experience overheating, poor fuel mileage, or at best, a engine that just doesn't perform well. The SERT is a tool that allows you to change settings inside the ECM. The PCIII is a bolt-on device that intercepts the stock ECM signals and alters them before passing them along to the engine.
It's all about tuning. Just like the mechanic used to have to put new points, plugs, adjust timing and adjust the carb in your old car... Now it's all computer controlled and EFI systems are no different, they just require different tools - tools like the SERT.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 1/17/2006 1:21:39 AM
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Terry1955
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quote:
Still dazed and confused here. All these upgrades for SERTs and downloads? For what end result?? More power?, Speed? Increased MPG? So I can grunt louder than the other guy? Just a need to spend more $$$$$$$???? Honestly I really don't get it.
Jim
I bet you can count the members on this forum who are running stone stock bikes on one hand and have a couple fingers left over. Everybody changes their pipes and air cleaner. That's just the way us harley guys are. The SERT is the best tuning method to make the bike run the way it should. We aren't talking about ported heads and high compression pistons here. Just the standard minor mods. I started this thread because I probably get 2-3 PMs a day or I read another 2 or 3 threads asking for this info. The end result is a harley you can have some real fun on. That's what it is all about.
Terry
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 1/17/2006 8:03:05 AM
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tugboat
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the 05 harleys and earlier have an open loop fuel management system while the new 06's have a closed loop design, this is a huge differeance. and it is also the reason why the 06 bikes are having so much trouble with the download. get a power commander or a sert. do not waste your money on a hd download.
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 1/17/2006 9:18:24 AM
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Terry1955
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quote:
It's only the 06 dynas that have the closed loop fuel injection .
This is true. Everybody freaked when they thought all the 06's had this. Hell, they didn't even give the dealers the info they needed to fix all the EFI problems on the 06's. Even still, for some reason the download quit working properly (or marginal at best) in 05.
Terry
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 1/17/2006 1:13:49 PM
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AceArt
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I have a stage I upgrade on my '05 FXDI. Don't plan on any other mods this year at least. Is there a reason for me to buy a sert or can I just take it to TerryT's mechanic and have hime tune it with a shop sert and the dyno? In other words, do I have to buy the sert to have the soek done or can they just use a their own? TIA, Art
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 1/17/2006 4:15:04 PM
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soos
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Well Terry you can include me as one who is running a "stone stock bike". I am new this past year to the HD family but have been riding for the last 32 years. Owning a Harley has been a real eye opener in all senses of the phrase. I never realized there was so much to owning one. So that I may be more enlightened, what is it that I would need to do, (in a nutshell) to improve my EG's overall running performance and what kind of $$ are we talking here, over and above the large chunk of change that I have already shelled out for my (what I thought was the top of the line) motorcycle?
Thanx,
Jim
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 1/17/2006 4:26:14 PM
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Terry1955
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Soos,
There is nothing wrong with a stone stock bike. There just aren't that many of them out there. If you are happy with the performance then don't worry about it. If you want basic improvements then your best bet is a good set of SE Slipon pipes, the stage 1 air cleaner and the SERT. They can download (from the SERT) a basic map and modify it to your needs.
Cost
Pipes Guessing here but you can get an idea from your hd catalog $349.00 ?
Air Cleaner $139.00-149.00
SERT $459.00
2-3 hrs labor
Now alot of dealers are having 10-15% sales off and on this time of year. Check around. You can also get the SERT from Eastern Performance Cycles for approx 15% off with no tax to boot. Save some bucks where you can.
Art,
Same with you. If your bike is running good, leave it alone. Not everybody is a gearhead like me and some of the others here . We like to run fast and play like those idiots on their crotch rockets. You can ignore us if you want. But you fall into the same catagory as Soos. You have to buy the SERT. It registers to your VIN and can't be used on another bike. I know, another way to take your money but it is an excellent piece of equipment.
Terry
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RE: Why EFI Vehicles Need To Be Tuned - 1/18/2006 3:55:53 PM
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BluegrassBuck
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quote:
It's only the 06 dynas that have the closed loop fuel injection .
Anyone know what's needed to convert an 06 open loop system to the 06 dyna's closed loop system?
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