Terry TV II or Arlen Ness Big Shot?

E ticket · #1 10-27-2007, 10:38 PM

I wanted to install a fuel management system on my '07 Electra Glide. SE slip-on's and Arlen Ness Big Sucker A/C. Any comments? Also is the Arlen Ness Big Shot an automatic adjustable like the Terry TV? Thanks for your help and comments.

cruiser85257 · #2 10-28-2007, 11:32 AM

No the Arlen Ness Big Shot would be more like the Cobra FI2000, or the Vance & Hines Fuel Pak. It requires adjusting. The TVII does not require any adjustments, it does all its own.

E ticket · #3 10-28-2007, 01:39 PM

Thanks for your input cruiser

chepo06 · #4 10-31-2007, 09:25 PM

i installed the techlusion tfi on my 07 fxst. no problems here bike runs cooler, excellent throttle response!!

glens · #5 11-01-2007, 09:46 PM

I don't understand how the TVII could do anything the '07 Delphi stock ECU doesn't do already. It uses the stock narrow-band sensors, so to get the AFR in line it must apply a factor to the signal the Delphi is sending. The reason I say this is because the stock sensors aren't any more usable to the TVII than to the Delphi in the upper rev ranges. The Delphi already does the exact same thing. It's shooting blind in the open loop areas based on corrections it had to make while in closed loop. This is all the TVII can do.

The TVII no doubt was the cat's meow before the '07 Delphis came out. If you've got an '07 or '08 bike, save your money. Your stock ECU already does all the TVII can do.

cruiser85257 · #6 11-01-2007, 10:50 PM

Hardly Glens...

The stock ECU made my bike run too lean. It surged at slow speeds and popped on decel. The heat was quite noticeable. My fuel mileage was never better than 40 mpg.

With the TVII thefuel mileage has improvedalthough the engine still seems to be running hot. The inside of the mufflers is ashade of charcoal, with no significant build up. No decel popping either.

I've tried over time the PCIII, SERT, Cobra FI and the TVII. They all achieved results. The TVII was the easiest to use. No dyno time, no laptops, no maps, and no pots. Just install it and ride your bike.

I'll admit there are some posts out there from people who haven't had such good results. There are also posts from people who love the TVII.

The only tuner I haven't seen negative posts on is the SERT. All the rest have their good posts and bad posts.

Harleypingman · #7 11-02-2007, 12:00 AM

Actually, the TVII will change the a/f from the factory settings which are typically extremely lean in most operating regimes and richen them, doing so with a closed loop a/f system. In short, you never operate in open loop with the TVII.

glens · #8 11-02-2007, 09:03 AM

Q: What Air Fuel Ratio are we trying to achieve?
A: After years of Dyno Testing, Terry Components has calibrated our module at a 14.7 at cruise mode and 13.5 under load.

Q: Does your unit use the factory O2 sensors?
A: Yes, we utilize the factory Sensors.

http://terrycomp.com/FAQ.aspx

If they're shooting for 14.7/cruise and 13.5/load, well, that's pretty much what the '07+ Delphi does.

If they're using the stock O2 sensors and shooting for 13.5, that means it's running open-loop, which is what the '07+ Delphi does.

If you put freer-breathing components on and the TV-II sees, via the stock sensors, that it needs to add fuel to get back to 14.7 (even if the initial result is out-of-range of the sensors), well, that's exactly what the '07+ Delphi does.

If it needed to add fuel in closed-loop to get the AFR back on target, it needs to remember a fueling factor to apply to the open-loop areas where it cannot get feedback since the target AFR is out of range of its feedback-producing sensors. That's exactly what the '07+ Delphi does.

The '07+ Delphi has lookup tables for the amount of air moving through the engine at various speeds and it assumes they're correct for the breathing components installed. If the new gear doesn't change the same amount (percentage-wise) everywhere, the desired open-loop AFR will not be correct. The way it achieves the fueling modifications is by noting the percentage change required during closed-loop and using it also in open-loop (because it's assumed the reason was maybe altitude-related, or oxygenated fuel, etc.). The TV-II cannot know anything different and it cannot be doing anything different.

Now, if they'd said they were shooting for 14.1:1 AFR while in closed-loop (just about the richest a narrow-band O2 sensor can reliably be used to attain) then I would assume they were doing that and sending a tricked-out signal back to the stock ECU's O2 sensor inputs so it wouldn't be trying to fight back to 14.7:1 again. But they're not claiming that and it just so happens it would be a nightmare to try to reliably do it anyway, so it doesn't surprise me in the least.

Like I said in an earlier post (maybe not in this thread; don't remember), this unit would be the cat's meow for a system less complicated/capable than the '07+ Delphi H-D is using. It seems rather pointless to me to piggyback it onto one of those later versions, however, because it will end up doing nothing (apparent experience to the contrary notwithstanding).

Heck, rumor has it that this form of autotuning the '07+ Delphi has come over from the Buell side, but maybe it really was taken from the the TV? (and maybe the TV was itself derived from the Buell setup back in the day).

In the end, according to TV's meager description of the unit's functionality, it does nothing different than what the stock ('07+) ECU does. Nothing.

In summary, it's evident the TV-II only does exactly what the '07+ Delphi does with its "adaptive fueling" routines. Again, adding this functionality to a pre-'07 ECU would be just the ticket, but it brings nothing new to the table otherwise.

cruiser85257 · #9 11-02-2007, 11:16 AM

I don't know if your AFR numbers are correct for the TVII. The Unit seems to be working on my bike.My Bike was too lean with the stock setup.

I added a K&N filter and Rush exhaust.The TVIImadesome adjustments, and the bike is not running leaner as it wouldwithout any fuel mngt on it. Plugs are white, inside exhaust pipe ischarcoal, no heavy deposits. Itruns better.

Its not the same unit they introduced to the Public years ago. It has undergone a lot of tweaking, and is now plug and play. No different than PCIII or Thundermax who I read about having updates for the firmware.Nothing is perfect.

Harleypingman · #10 11-02-2007, 03:15 PM

I don't know what the stock ECM a/f map looks like; but the maps with the SERT software for '07 mods (exhaust, a/c, Big Bore, etc.) create target a/f in the various rpm and map loads that are largely red, meaning they are at 14.6 or 14.7 (IIRC) and not to be leaned further. IIRC, if you program the ECM with a SERT to richness greater than 14.1, the bike goes into open loop, meaning the bike is using a target a/f, but with no capability of measuring the actual a/f at such a setting. So if you change pipes anda/c, for example, the ECM has no capability to richen the mixture automatically outside of the 14.1 to 14.7 range to account for the increased air and thefuel leaning effect of such modifications.

The TVII is programmed to provide 12.8 at WOT with richening as map load decreases; partial throttle roll-on causes the a/f to be 13.8 or so, cruising is 14.7, and decel is leaned to as much as 15.8. Of course, these are rough way points; there are many increments between these numbers that the TVII uses in its software programming. Basically, it is reading a/f at the various rpms, TPS, and map load, and changing the voltage going to the ECM to cause the ECM totell the injector to increase the fuel delivery at those given points to achieve the a/f called for in the TVII's software. It is able to do this because it is electronically connected in between the bike's TPS andmap sensors, and the ECM. It is, in essence, tricking the ECM to deliver more fuel than the stock settings would call for and maintaining closed loop a/f measuring to do it.