RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/18/2008 6:17:12 PM
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Lost1
Posts: 1492
Joined: 3/10/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cruiser85257
Lost One, I spent five years in Wilmington, NC on the Coast. It's not too bad there during the summer. You have a nice breeze from the Ocean.
I'm sure AK is beautiful, but I could never live there. How much riding do you get up there in a year?
Only a few months out of the year are suited to riding in AK. Once the snows start it's time to hang it up for the winter. ATV's are much more plentiful, especially on Kodiak Island where I call "home." 
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'07 Electra Glide Classic- Black Cherry Pearl
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/18/2008 8:42:46 PM
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Low_Wider
Posts: 57
Joined: 7/25/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RCH
quote:
ORIGINAL: cruiser85257
RC, cancel the TVII. The IED's will work better with your Mods and keep the motor cooler.
Because HD is coming out with a new Race Tuner, you can get older ones off Ebay cheap. The only update you need is a $20 CD. I almost had a Race Tuner today for $200 and blew it by waiting too long. With the Race Tuner you can load a base map and change your closed loop bias table and richen the bike up plenty to run great with your mods.
I will cancel the order Dave. Thanks......
On another note, not that I am cheap mind you (I like to call myself frugal!!!) but does anyone have a source or part number for the Tyco connectors that are used on the O2 sensors?
I would like to make my own set of O2 bias leads, and I don't want to lay out $70 for a few dollars of parts that I can put together myself.
Anyone??? Bueller???
RCH,
Yeah you're about right it shouldn't be more than $10-$15 in parts to make the cables. I believe the connectors are the Tyco Superseal 1.5 connectors, assuming you'd use 16 AWG wire you would need the following:
For contacts:
183024-1 pin
183025-1 receptacle
For housings:
282080-1 plug
282104-1
For seal protectors:
281934-2
The hand tool to crimp the contacts is 785353-1 but you can always solder the contact to avoid the cost of the tool. Good luck.
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 4:33:15 AM
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Mr. Clean
Posts: 118
Joined: 10/10/2007
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cruiser 85257:
Sorry for not replying sooner, but we have out of town company since last Saturday until tomorrow. I promised the SO that the garage and the bike would be off limits intil the company left.
I purchased my bike used and it already had the SE A/C on it. I recently acquired a used stock A/C assembly from a 2007 Dyna on the internet. It should be the same as the touring A/C. I will check the parts manual to make sure I have all the necessary o-rings, gaskets and give the stock A/C a try and report the results. While I am not looking for more power, I do not want less power. It will be interesting to see if the bike runs differently with the stock A/C and whether the temps are lower than with the SE A/C.
The bike was serviced by the dealer just before I purchased it so I assume it has dino oil not synthetic. I plan on switching to synthetic when I change the fluids in about 1300 miles.
I checked the plugs a few weeks ago with the SE A/C, the SE slip-ons and the O2 IED's installed. They looked pretty clean - not as brand new, possibly very slightly off white. That and the temperature issue is what got me thinking about whether I should go for a Stage I download, a fueler or stay with the IED's.
Since H-D recommends the Stage I download if you install the SE A/C, I made the assumption that the SE A/C creates a leaner A/F than the stock A/C. This was proven to be true by my dyno run with the SE A/C and the stock exhaust - A/F reading of 15.1 at low throttle settings. I do not know how the O2 sensors work, but they definitely did not lower my A/F to 14.2 or even to 14.7. According to Nightrider, the IED's supposedly provide an enrichment to the A/F of about 0.5 Therefore, since my A/F without the IED's was 15.1, I assume that my current A/F with the IED's is about 14.6 with the IED's. No flames intended, but I doubt if the IED's would lower my A/F to 14.2 as you suggested. I guess I would need to have the bike dynoed again to find out what my A/F currently is.
I read your comments about the Stage I download, but cannot help but think there is a bit more to it than just the increase in the rev limiter. My assumption is that if I got the the Stage I download and keep the SE A/C, it would return my A/F (without the IED's) to around 14.7. Then, when I reinstall the IED's, I would think that would now bring the 14.7 down to about 14.2. Again, only the purchase of a Stage I download and another dyno run would prove or disprove my assumption.
I am not looking to spend lots of money on dyno runs to find out if my assumptions are correct or not. Most likely, if the bike's performance is satisfactory to me with the stock A/C, my SE slip-ons and the IED's, and if the temperatures are lower than with the SE A/C, then I will run with that setup. If I feel that I lost too much performance by going back to the stock A/C, then I am still at square one and will have to decide the next steps.
I do not know whether Steve from Nightrider or someone on this forum knows whether my assumptions are correct or not. Also, does anyone know what the Stage I download really changes besides the rev limit?
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my posts.
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2007 Road King Classic, SE A/C & Street Legal slip-ons, Stage 1 download.
Previous Bikes: BMW R1150RT, 1997 Heritage Classic and five Hondas
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 7:45:43 AM
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barrygreen
Posts: 377
Joined: 11/7/2005
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I do know that the Stage 1 has to be within the legal limits of the EPA ... = LEAN.
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Barry Green
08 FLHX
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 10:43:12 AM
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Ultra96rider
Posts: 19
Joined: 9/23/2007
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I have been studying your field tests of the Nightrider 02 Senor option and have wondered that if the Rear cylinder is always hotter than the front (which it is) what might be the outcome of installing the Nightrider option only on the rear cylinder sensor to possibly get it's operating temperature nearer that of the front.
I will be receiving an 08 Ultra soon and plan on installing the Premium Oil Cooler and one or both of the Nightrider 02 option to hopefully reduce the heat issue. May even install the RJ Heat Deflectors once I figure out how the adjustable rider back rest control mounted under the left side will work.
You all are doing a great job of testing this product and I would guess that Nightrider is reading your test results daily....I hope.
Thanks again
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 1:45:24 PM
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Lost1
Posts: 1492
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FWIW- my dealer's service manager (seems to know his stuff) told me that the H-D Stage 1 download doesn't alter AFR- it only changes timing...
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'07 Electra Glide Classic- Black Cherry Pearl
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 1:55:31 PM
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SGDude
Posts: 181
Joined: 9/29/2007
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Hey all, I saw a couple of references to popping on decel in this post, but they looked like they were in the context of other devices. So, to ask straight out, have any of you with the Nightrider IED's had any problem with decel pop?
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 2:15:59 PM
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barrygreen
Posts: 377
Joined: 11/7/2005
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That is what my dealers "lead tech" told me, changes the timing and raises the rev limit
but does not change the AFR.
Putting one IED on the rear cylinder would cause problems I would think.
On a fuel injection system with O2 sensors you have a base map with minimum and maximum values that the program targets for, looking for that AFR in that block at that moment in time. If the O2 sensors spend too much time at one end of their range, the ECM sees this as a problem, voltage stays high (rich) the ECM tries to lean it out …too lean it will try to richen it. Yes there is a lot more to it than that but that would take forever to explain. I would think the ECM would flag one of the cylinders as having a problem with one IED installed.
Harley designed this engine and they know the rear cylinder will run hotter has been for years, it is behind the rear cylinder getting its hot air...praying for a side breeze.
Every one experiences different things or problems with any motor vehicle, just go to any auto forum and you will see everyone having just about the same issues as get posted here but there is always a better mouse trap and someone faster, we all want more and more…
Make your bike run good (I think the 08’s run damn good stock), make your bike look good, ride and enjoy.
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Barry Green
08 FLHX
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 2:24:12 PM
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barrygreen
Posts: 377
Joined: 11/7/2005
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SGDude...NONE, and yes with the stock muffs you could hear it without the IED's
And if you will re- read again you will see that I polished off the blueing
I had on the head pipes before the IED install...150 miles later they are still
not turning as dark of a purple like the did the first 50 miles when it was new.
I will say that right at the bend off the head it is turning a light blue fading
to yellow but that is exspected, a lot of heat in that area I dont care how good you tune
one. But at least the pipe is not darl purple down as far as it was.
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Barry Green
08 FLHX
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 2:26:21 PM
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Gundog
Posts: 537
Joined: 8/5/2006
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I've been following this thread with great interest. I bought my bike new in Aug of 06 and the first time I rode it I knew there was a heat issue. My main goal was to cool the bike down and the PCIII took care of that. At 1000k I put in Mobile 1. I then got caught up in the "more performance better sound hype" and put on a K&N air filter and Rush slip-ons.
I recently disconnected the PCIII (but left the O2 eliminators connected) and put the stock air filter and the SE slip-ons back on. The bike runs great has plenty of power and I like the sound better. After a ride the oil temp is about 205 deg with the air temp being about 60 deg. I know the oil temp will get hotter this summer, but if I can keep it below 225 deg I'll be happy.
I just received my O2 IEDs in the mail today and when I get them installed I'll contribute to the "field testing". I'm approaching this with guarded optimism. The best case is the bike will run great with no heat issues and the worst case is I'll reconnect the PCIII.
Thanks to Cruiser and Mr. Clean and everyone else for the great info and the motivation to give the IEDs a try.
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Dave
2007 FLSTC
.JPG)
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 3:10:01 PM
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fastbagger
Posts: 264
Joined: 1/23/2006
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Gundog, you are running the stock esm with the o2 sensors eliminated? Does that throw a code?
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 3:21:19 PM
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Gundog
Posts: 537
Joined: 8/5/2006
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No code. It's no different than with the PCIII connected.
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Dave
2007 FLSTC
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 3:22:19 PM
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db252
Posts: 224
Joined: 12/13/2007
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cruiser-
Almost bought the TVII because of other postings and reviews that you gave of it but I am definitly going to try these especially since I just ordered them. I too am one of those that has a stage 1 download SE A/C and Rush slipons with 1.75 baffles. Whatever richening I get I will be happier about and look forward to hopeful cooler temps as well. Thanks to everyone's research on this product.
Also as a side note, I must avoid any type of ECU interface or replacement for it would void the warranty on my 08 and this is my best apparent oportunity.
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Black Denim Fat Bob
Stage II 103" with 255 cams
PCIII USB
Rush Mufflers
Boss Bags
Bunch of Cosmetic Stuff
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 4:58:20 PM
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ToBeFrank
Posts: 270
Joined: 4/11/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lost1
FWIW- my dealer's service manager (seems to know his stuff) told me that the H-D Stage 1 download doesn't alter AFR- it only changes timing...
I don't think he's completely correct. When you do a stage 1 (the mods, not the download), you're changing the amount of air coming into the engine. This means you're changing the VE. My guess is the stage 1 download changes the timing tables and the VE tables, but the AFR targets table remains the same. So effectively, the AFR remains the same as stock. However, if you didn't do the stage 1 download when you did the stage 1 mods, the AFRs would be leaner than stock because the VE tables are wrong. Of course in the closed loop range, the VEs should be adapted such that you get the correct AFR even without the stage 1 download. I'm not sure how the open loop AFRs would look though.
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 6:12:49 PM
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Ultra96rider
Posts: 19
Joined: 9/23/2007
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Great information, great work from all of you. In that we are dealing with the HEAT issue have any of you installed the RJS Original heat shield to divert the heat away from the rear cylinder? Besides an Premium Oil Cooler, the Nightrider 02 option and heat shields I guess there isn't much left to try except waiting for the liquid cooled motor of the future. Meanwhile let's have some fun fixing......
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 6:54:32 PM
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barrygreen
Posts: 377
Joined: 11/7/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToBeFrank
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lost1
FWIW- my dealer's service manager (seems to know his stuff) told me that the H-D Stage 1 download doesn't alter AFR- it only changes timing...
I don't think he's completely correct. When you do a stage 1 (the mods, not the download), you're changing the amount of air coming into the engine. This means you're changing the VE. My guess is the stage 1 download changes the timing tables and the VE tables, but the AFR targets table remains the same. So effectively, the AFR remains the same as stock. However, if you didn't do the stage 1 download when you did the stage 1 mods, the AFRs would be leaner than stock because the VE tables are wrong. Of course in the closed loop range, the VEs should be adapted such that you get the correct AFR even without the stage 1 download. I'm not sure how the open loop AFRs would look though.
You both are correct, but think about this, the VE tables are higher ( number value in percent) due to the fact that you change them to say your flowing more air ...correct ... the STAGE 1.
But the ECM takes the VE table and tries to hit the AFR tables. So if you alter the VE table and do not change the AIR FUEL RATIO
on the block at the time that the ECM is looking at it...it will try to hit whatever the AFR is. So you can tell the ecm you are flowing what
ever you want at any given map/rpm range, but it will look at the air fuel ratio in the same block and adjust the injector pulse to acheve the
AFR set in the same block. So in short I increase my Air Flow with a free flowing air filter and pipes, but I dont change the air to fuel ratio...so
my ECM is still trying to hit say.... 14.7:1, so it adds mor fuel to the incomming increased air to acheve the 14.7:1 ratio.
So the Stage 1 download is SET FOR A INCREASE IN AIR FLOW but set to hit the target air fuel ratio that the EPA likes...your still lean!
The altered timming is what gives you the feel of more power...along with the fact that you can rev the engine higher witch is
another waste, if your cams are designed to acheve max HP & TQ at a lower RPM then what good are you doing going over that
RPM range???
O2 sensors are used to monitor the exaust to tell the ECM " this is what is coming out" , the ecm tries to correct it, then the O2 reports
back letting the ECM know if it added too much fuel or not enough fuel. They constantly argue with each other trying to acheve whatever is
programmed into the blocks in the AFR tables along with what the MAP sensor is reporting, and the Intake temp and the engine temp and the...
But the ECM is programed for a spacific AFR. Your Dyno guy can change the AFR tables, or you can with a SERT.
The purpose of the IED's...is to fool the ECM and making the report back to the ECM FALSE so now it is thinking it needs to add more fuel to hit the AFR table.
So this is why these $69 items are better than a Stage 1 download...they add more fuel o a lean running engine.
_____________________________
Barry Green
08 FLHX
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 10:42:20 PM
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heywood727
Posts: 609
Joined: 1/8/2008
From: Edmonton Ab. Canada
Status: online
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Hey Cruiser...
I think your probably right on putting them on as soon as I get the bike done. Might as well break it in with them on. Better to be too rich or richer than be lean.
Now as was mentioned.... I too am concerned about the warranty issue with messing with the ECM. I believe Steve has put up a big warning about this on his site.
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hd2007HD_performance_upgrades.htm
If it is true that the stage 1 not only changes the AFR but the timing as well, this would greatly benefit the IED's. I doubt that they will be re-flashing the ecm at the 1000k service and doubt that they would be able to see the IED's installed. Might not be a bad idea to be on the safe side to remove them before it goes in, and put them back on after the fact.
I'm not sure how many people are aware of this green light clause that Steve has written about? If these do the trick, great. If I'm not happy, I guess my next try will be the Cobra fi2000. At least you can dial them up and down... not like the TVII's. But Then again..no matter what you do with the Cobra...it's still using the narrowband O2 sensors. From what I've been able to pick up here, it's still not going to get you anything lower than 14.1 correct?? I might have to look at the LC1's. It's half the price of a Thunder Max with The auto tune feature.
I defiantly will stay away from them (TVII's) after what you've gone through. I can get a cobra from my Indy for $295 or the TV's for $600. I know I can get them cheaper on line....but I like to support my Indy when I can.
BarryGreen.....You had the Flash/ AC, and pipes didn't you before ??
_____________________________
If I was one... I wouldn''t tell ya! If I wasn''t one... I wouldn''t walk around saying I was!
08 RG BUB 7 TD
08 Buell Blast
02 Heritage
82 SECA Turbo
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 11:03:00 PM
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heywood727
Posts: 609
Joined: 1/8/2008
From: Edmonton Ab. Canada
Status: online
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I was wondering......
Is there anyway we can accurately measure our own AFR outside of checking plugs. Any sort of gas detector that we might be able to buy to tell us where it is?? Say a digital CO2 detector? Get some stock readings and see if there is a difference before and after?? Verify the stock and IED's difference with a known from a dyno and compare the CO2 readings?
Any such animal exist??
_____________________________
If I was one... I wouldn''t tell ya! If I wasn''t one... I wouldn''t walk around saying I was!
08 RG BUB 7 TD
08 Buell Blast
02 Heritage
82 SECA Turbo
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 11:16:05 PM
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ToBeFrank
Posts: 270
Joined: 4/11/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: barrygreen
So the Stage 1 download is SET FOR A INCREASE IN AIR FLOW but set to hit the target air fuel ratio that the EPA likes...your still lean!
I didn't quite get your first paragraph, but I think we're saying the same thing. With the stage 1 download, yes, you're still just as lean as you were as stock. What I was pointing out is that without the stage 1 download, you'd be running even more lean than stock.
quote:
The altered timming is what gives you the feel of more power...along with the fact that you can rev the engine higher witch is another waste, if your cams are designed to acheve max HP & TQ at a lower RPM then what good are you doing going over that
RPM range???
No, the feeling of more power is because you're increasing the VEs in the VE table, which indirectly adds fuel to match the increased air flow. For example, suppose a block in the stock VE table has a value of 50 and the corresponding AFR block is 13.8. Now you add the stage 1 mods but no download. Now the VE in the block should be 60 since you're getting more air, but since there was no download, it's still set at 50. The AFR block is still set to 13.8, but that's not what your AFR will be. The VE of the engine has increased, but the ECM still delivers the fuel for the VE of 50 since that is what the table tells it to do. So you're getting more air but the same amount of fuel. You will not get an AFR of 13.8.
quote:
Your Dyno guy can change the AFR tables, or you can with a SERT.
No, the dyno guy's job is to get the VE right (if you're using a SERT). If he gets the VE wrong, the AFR tables are useless.
quote:
So this is why these $69 items are better than a Stage 1 download...they add more fuel o a lean running engine.
Only in the closed loop areas.
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 11:21:29 PM
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ToBeFrank
Posts: 270
Joined: 4/11/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heywood727
I was wondering......
Is there anyway we can accurately measure our own AFR outside of checking plugs. Any sort of gas detector that we might be able to buy to tell us where it is?? Say a digital CO2 detector? Get some stock readings and see if there is a difference before and after?? Verify the stock and IED's difference with a known from a dyno and compare the CO2 readings?
Any such animal exist??
TwinScan II
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/19/2008 11:43:31 PM
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heywood727
Posts: 609
Joined: 1/8/2008
From: Edmonton Ab. Canada
Status: online
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Wow... Thanks
Looks a little out of my league......but I'm persistent.
_____________________________
If I was one... I wouldn''t tell ya! If I wasn''t one... I wouldn''t walk around saying I was!
08 RG BUB 7 TD
08 Buell Blast
02 Heritage
82 SECA Turbo
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