RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/8/2008 11:06:52 PM
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streetdjack
Posts: 4
Joined: 4/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jlb0038
Labfreak,
Here is my layman version of the 2 - 1 and the XIEDs. I am running a D&D Fat Cat. At first I also was using the K&N air kit. The XIEDs did make it run alot smoother than the PCIII, but I did noticed some surging and higher temps, which was to be expected. I then took off the K&N and put back on the stock A/C. The surging was gone and the throttle response was great, but I was still getting alot of heat. More than I was comfortable with. 275 on the front and 294 on the rear and 325 on the front while it was idling. I have not thrown any codes though. It is my unprofessional opinion, after checking temps for the past week, a 2 - 1 system just leans it out too much even for the XIEDs. I just put back on my PCIII and you can really feel the difference in the heat. Its unfortunate, because I also lost the smoothness of the XIEDs. I have been agonizing over whether I should switch to stock headers with slip ons and the XIEDs, or keep the Fat Cat and PCIII. The XIEDs were so smooth and throttle response was so good, but I love the Fat Cat exhaust.
J.B.
Why don't you use your Xieds with your PCIII ?
may be you can get the best of both world ....
the Xieds would take care of the closed loop and the PCIII would add the little extra fuel you need to cool the heat....
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/8/2008 11:16:25 PM
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heywood727
Posts: 607
Joined: 1/8/2008
From: Edmonton Ab. Canada
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Rawhide07:
I wouldn't worry about it. With the XIED's on, as far as the ECM's concerned, it's at 14.7:1. It you put on a different slipon on, it'll see it's a little lean and pump more fuel in to get it back to where it thinks it's normal or called for AFR. The other way if the pipe is more restrictive. You should just have to ride it a bit so it can relearn it's curve. Not a lot different than riding at the ocean and then through the mountains.
lilwilly:
I believe the Stage 1 flash is just a canned map suited to your set-up. They just take in account what you have on it. eg. Hi-flow, crossover, staggered SE pipes....etc. They pull a map from their data base and flash the ECM to get it close to what their Tech's figure the tables should be at. Your right in assumeing that it's a pre-programmed change.
Keep in mind that HD does not have a True Duel set-up in their 08 maps. If it's a warranty concern, take the 5 min's and take off the IED's/Xied's before you head into the dealership. Could you leave them on for a Stage 1 flash?? Yes. The stock ECM doesn't have much for data logging.
I would take them off just to keep the questions down. If they knew they were installed, it might give them ammo incase you got into a pissing match with MOCO or the dealership.
_____________________________
If I was one... I wouldn''t tell ya! If I wasn''t one... I wouldn''t walk around saying I was!
08 RG BUB 7 TD
08 Buell Blast
02 Heritage
82 SECA Turbo
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RE: I'm in Hog Heaven Now - 5/8/2008 11:24:44 PM
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heywood727
Posts: 607
Joined: 1/8/2008
From: Edmonton Ab. Canada
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I agree. If your not running the PCIII race, you should be able to run both.
quote:
Steve Mullen Nightrider
You can use the O2 IED's with virtually every piggy back controller on the market, every HD download available or SE Race Tuner. There are a few combinations that don't make sense (mainly SERT with the O2 IED's because SERT can accomplish the same in software) and some different ways of tuning (like not using the o2 eliminators in the TFI or PCIII race), but the O2 IED's are essentially "invisible" to all these upgrades.
_____________________________
If I was one... I wouldn''t tell ya! If I wasn''t one... I wouldn''t walk around saying I was!
08 RG BUB 7 TD
08 Buell Blast
02 Heritage
82 SECA Turbo
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/8/2008 11:27:11 PM
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lilwilly
Posts: 35
Joined: 8/27/2007
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Thanks Heywood, If the XIED's won't affect the download, I think I'll keep them on, I don't think the dealer will notice them.
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/8/2008 11:37:22 PM
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cruiser85257
Posts: 921
Joined: 2/6/2007
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LilWilly,
If your getting the XIED, save your $200 and skip the download. Here's some interesting reading, I'm not the author.
There is no harm in doing the Stage 1 download. But I always go back to Harley's statements in the Fall 2006 issue of the Enthusiast Magazine. It stated that the TC96 engines would make 7-11% more power after exhaust/air cleaner upgrades without having to do any EFI remapping. This was Harley-Davidsons statement. While they were primarily referring to their own exhaust and SE air cleaner upgrade, most exhaust systems are going to react in an identical manner. The simple truth is that the open loop AFR values in the HD ECM are mostly in the 13.5 to 12.5 range. Even with the improvement if exhaust flow and air cleaner flow, these AFR's are not going to go below 13.8 to 12.8 (or about .3 leaner). I've already seen data from Andy that verifies this. So there is no way the engine ever goes to lean to hurt itself. If you check recommend AFR from experts with more credibility than me, you find their recommendations generally are as follows:13.5:1 AFR produces the best torque12.5:1 AFR produces the best HP So this means to maximize power output in any engine, your mid range AFR should be 13.5 through the torque peak, then you richen the mixture gradually to 12.5:1 at the max HP RPM. So any AFR between these two ranges is quite adequate for street work. So the basic facts are:-The IED/XiED have proven to be a reliable, low cost way to improve the closed loop AFR.-Richer closed loop AFR's in the 14.2 to 13.8:1 AFR range provide a variety of benefits such as: Lower engine/exhaust temp, smoother idle, better acceleration, reduced/eliminate engine ping, etc.-The average rider spends 95-98+% of their time in the closed loop mode, so only 2-5% of the time does the engine every enter open loop. And even if it enters open loop, the time frame is less than 10-15 seconds.-Harley-Davidson has already documented that the Open Loop ECM settings will support 7-11% more HP. This is with no remapping. This shows that the Wide Open Throttle OEM fuel map is plenty rich.-The HD Stage 1 map is primarily a change to the rev limit of the engine and an update to the VE values of the ECM. Changes to AFR values are pretty much prevented by EPA regulations. So the Stage 1 should restore a true 12.5 WOT AFR. But the OEM fuel map in the same circumstances is in the 13.0 to 12.8 range. The difference in power will only be seen on a dyno.-Riders who did the Stage 1 download pretty much agree that they saw little or no improvement in their daily riding experience. When they installed the IED or XiED, they saw significant differences. So those are the major FACTS. [/ali
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 12:40:19 AM
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Titan08
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I have a 2007 Fat Boy and am running a swet of Vance and Hines big shots staggered, High Flow air cleaner (pretty sure its an arlen ness big sucker) and I have the HD stage 1 download on my ECM. Im just curious as to wether the XIED's will work with my set up.
THANKS!
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 2:03:59 AM
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wmw
Posts: 21
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rider57
quote:
ORIGINAL: wmw
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rider57
quote:
ORIGINAL: wmw
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rider57
That has nothing to do with the above posts.
We have tested this and THAT IS THE FIX as far as exhausts go.
If you install a 2 into 1 system and dont address the valve overlap issue with a cam, the 2 into 1 system WILL scavange the system causing it to run lean. PERIOD.
Dont make statements that you have absolutly no knowledge of.
Why would you say that to me? Looking at your profile you have spend all your time on this topic?
I was just replying to your quote!
Post the voltage reading and I'll explain them to you!
ORIGINAL:Rider57
I was invited to this thread.
The voltage is 850mv.
With your simulators install you are seeing a fixed reading of 850mv?
ORIGINAL:Rider57
It's nominal (best) voltage is that.
You must know that from the voltage readings you have been taking and comparing to the AFR readings on your bike.
As you can see, they are related and vary according to each bike and the bias table applied at the tested load /rpm. Right?
I am trying to help you understand what you are doing when you install 2-resistors to the ecu's input of the factory O2 sensor circuit,
and what the simulated voltage is doing.
I have posted information in my other posts,but you don't seem to want to read the information.
You need to have a look at the voltage reading with a scope or accurate volt-meter(FLUKE-Meter).
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 2:20:48 AM
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wmw
Posts: 21
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cruiser85257
LilWilly,
If your getting the XIED, save your $200 and skip the download. Here's some interesting reading, I'm not the author.
There is no harm in doing the Stage 1 download. But I always go back to Harley's statements in the Fall 2006 issue of the Enthusiast Magazine. It stated that the TC96 engines would make 7-11% more power after exhaust/air cleaner upgrades without having to do any EFI remapping. This was Harley-Davidsons statement. While they were primarily referring to their own exhaust and SE air cleaner upgrade, most exhaust systems are going to react in an identical manner. The simple truth is that the open loop AFR values in the HD ECM are mostly in the 13.5 to 12.5 range. Even with the improvement if exhaust flow and air cleaner flow, these AFR's are not going to go below 13.8 to 12.8 (or about .3 leaner). I've already seen data from Andy that verifies this. So there is no way the engine ever goes to lean to hurt itself. If you check recommend AFR from experts with more credibility than me, you find their recommendations generally are as follows:13.5:1 AFR produces the best torque12.5:1 AFR produces the best HP So this means to maximize power output in any engine, your mid range AFR should be 13.5 through the torque peak, then you richen the mixture gradually to 12.5:1 at the max HP RPM. So any AFR between these two ranges is quite adequate for street work. So the basic facts are:-The IED/XiED have proven to be a reliable, low cost way to improve the closed loop AFR.-Richer closed loop AFR's in the 14.2 to 13.8:1 AFR range provide a variety of benefits such as: Lower engine/exhaust temp, smoother idle, better acceleration, reduced/eliminate engine ping, etc.-The average rider spends 95-98+% of their time in the closed loop mode, so only 2-5% of the time does the engine every enter open loop. And even if it enters open loop, the time frame is less than 10-15 seconds.-Harley-Davidson has already documented that the Open Loop ECM settings will support 7-11% more HP. This is with no remapping. This shows that the Wide Open Throttle OEM fuel map is plenty rich.-The HD Stage 1 map is primarily a change to the rev limit of the engine and an update to the VE values of the ECM. Changes to AFR values are pretty much prevented by EPA regulations. So the Stage 1 should restore a true 12.5 WOT AFR. But the OEM fuel map in the same circumstances is in the 13.0 to 12.8 range. The difference in power will only be seen on a dyno.-Riders who did the Stage 1 download pretty much agree that they saw little or no improvement in their daily riding experience. When they installed the IED or XiED, they saw significant differences. So those are the major FACTS.[/si
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 7:09:34 AM
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Badfinger
Posts: 505
Joined: 9/23/2007
From: Ohio
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Quote:
"There is a lot of typed wording here that is incorrect,if you are posting this information with the understanding that all the facts are correct, then you are miss leading people who don't understand how the Delphi system operates ."
WMW, why so cryptic? If you disagree with the logic here why don't you just say what's on your mind or better yet clarify how our Delphi system works and where these guys are off the mark or mistaken?
Ride well,
Jim
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 8:55:52 AM
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BCguy
Posts: 279
Joined: 5/31/2007
From: Vancouver Island
Status: offline
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Yeah wmw, please just say whatever is on your mind in language we can all understand! Something about the IED/XIED devices is obviously bugging you and so you are making cryptic comments about them. Just spit it out and let us all in on whatever it is you have to say.
Bye the way, I have the IED's installed and the RG seems to be running pretty good.
_____________________________
''''08 Crimson Red FLTR, ABS, V&H Ovals, SE a/c
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 10:43:31 AM
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heywood727
Posts: 607
Joined: 1/8/2008
From: Edmonton Ab. Canada
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OK wmw.....why don't you go get a set , diesect them and then write a paper on how the system works. If you have a different idea and have some earth shattering theories on how this all works...spit it out.
Tell us how it works in your eyes. How are our thoughts wrong about how the Delphi system works and what is your background is?? Electrical?? Mechancal?? Seems I've asked this before?
If you don't think they work....cool, don't buy them. If you think we're wrong... tell us how and why.
Other than that, I'm done. I dying to hear how it works. Enlighten us. If not, thanks for stopping by. "Don't let the door hit ya, where the good lord split ya."
< Message edited by heywood727 -- 5/9/2008 12:59:43 PM >
_____________________________
If I was one... I wouldn''t tell ya! If I wasn''t one... I wouldn''t walk around saying I was!
08 RG BUB 7 TD
08 Buell Blast
02 Heritage
82 SECA Turbo
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 10:59:26 AM
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jerryh57
Posts: 308
Joined: 10/3/2007
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I have been reading the posts here and was wondering if anyone had put these on a sporty?? I got the xied's for my 07 sporty and installed them. Immediately got a check engine lite. I went back to how I had them installed, Hooked up to the wire off o2 sensor and to the one where the other end was plugged into. Any suggestions or help greatly appreciated.
_____________________________
07 XL883 standard
Nightrider xied's
SE AC
Vance and Hines Python 3's
Viet Nam vet at 19
Desert storm vet at 43
Live Long and Prosper
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 12:41:08 PM
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cspcrx
Posts: 101
Joined: 11/18/2007
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Dont let him, WMW, get to you guys. In looking at his posts hes adding explaining nothing but trying to cast doubt. Hes a kid with a bottle of lighter fluid. Until he provides more answers then BS I vote he goes away. I like my IED's been on my 07FXST for about 200 miles with no problems and bike runs better. Best few bucks Ive spent.
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 1:14:48 PM
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heywood727
Posts: 607
Joined: 1/8/2008
From: Edmonton Ab. Canada
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I'm not letting him get to me. I've asked him the same question before and instead of an answer, we get more questions. He had his chance so I'll just ignore him or block him.
Anyone who's checked his posts, can see it. We were answering his questions, but it got to be like a dog chasing it's tail.
_____________________________
If I was one... I wouldn''t tell ya! If I wasn''t one... I wouldn''t walk around saying I was!
08 RG BUB 7 TD
08 Buell Blast
02 Heritage
82 SECA Turbo
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 2:06:41 PM
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Metalgear454
Posts: 34
Joined: 11/4/2007
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I am ready to order the Xied's I am wondering if anyone knows if Steve has any newer designs about to be released or upgraded versions on the horizon? I know that some of you had to buy twice.
Also, has there been many occurences where '07 or '08's have thrown codes?
Thanks
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 7:21:00 PM
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bikerbehaviorist
Posts: 465
Joined: 10/23/2005
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Anybody know the flow rate or if there is a difference from K&N and big sucker and the SE Heavy Breather??? I think I would really like the look on my bike and I know k&N does not make one for my bike yet not sure about Ness....?? Thanks!
_____________________________
2008 SERK
78 Covertible Bug
68 shovel stroked motor almost done and ready to mock up
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 8:56:10 PM
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Donny
Posts: 259
Joined: 5/31/2007
Status: online
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I have a question that has been going through my mind the last few days. I have a basic idea of how the O2 sensors and ECM works, but what I want to know is, if the IED drops the voltage down so the ECM thinks it's lean and adds more fuel, won't the o2s recognize a richer mixture and start raising the voltage more? I would think it would eventually cancel out the effectiveness of the IEDs or max out the range of the O2s.
And on the XIEDs, could they be forcing the ECM into open loop or something, making it think it's not warmed up yet? I know that almost everone who tested them had great results, I just can't get these questions out of my head. I'm definately going to try them, though!
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 9:18:06 PM
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HarleyDawg
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I ordered the XIED's today and hoping they will be in before next Friday. I have the new Screaming Eagle slipons and I want something with more rumble. Any ideals? Should I add the K&N also? Help me spend my stimulus check!!!!!!!!!!!!!
_____________________________
2007 Ultra Classic
SE Slip ons
Nightrider's XIED's
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 9:19:52 PM
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wmw
Posts: 21
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rider57
quote:
ORIGINAL: wmw
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rider57
That has nothing to do with the above posts.
We have tested this and THAT IS THE FIX as far as exhausts go.
If you install a 2 into 1 system and dont address the valve overlap issue with a cam, the 2 into 1 system WILL scavange the system causing it to run lean. PERIOD.
Dont make statements that you have absolutly no knowledge of.
Why would you say that to me? Looking at your profile you have spend all your time on this topic?
I was just replying to your quote!
Post the voltage reading and I'll explain them to you!
ORIGINAL:Rider57
I was invited to this thread.
The voltage is 850mv.
Back to the reading that you replyed with,how did you get 850mv?
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 11:02:37 PM
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heywood727
Posts: 607
Joined: 1/8/2008
From: Edmonton Ab. Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Donny
I have a question that has been going through my mind the last few days. I have a basic idea of how the O2 sensors and ECM works, but what I want to know is, if the IED drops the voltage down so the ECM thinks it's lean and adds more fuel, won't the o2s recognize a richer mixture and start raising the voltage more? I would think it would eventually cancel out the effectiveness of the IEDs or max out the range of the O2s.
And on the XIEDs, could they be forcing the ECM into open loop or something, making it think it's not warmed up yet? I know that almost everone who tested them had great results, I just can't get these questions out of my head. I'm definately going to try them, though!
Not quite Donny. The 02 sensors just relay the message back to the ECM. The 02's never change anything. they just transmit back to the ECM. There is a cold part of the map that tells it when it's not at temperature. Richen's it up till the temps come around. IF you had a SERT, this cold start part of the map can be adjusted as well.
It leans out as the temperatures come up, it reads partly what the 02 sensors are sending back. When it gets to 14.7 the ECM stops. It always starts out rich on cold starts. Just like a choke. Less air more fuel till the temps come up and then you have to add more air.
The other end of the map is the EITMS ( Engine Idle Temperature Management System) Page 140 on the touring owners manual. When it gets too hot, it shuts off the spark and fuel to the rear cylinder. Richen's up the fuel to the front cylinder (like cold start) and the rear cylinder becomes an air pump. Cools the bike down at idle.
The IED's just knock it down .5. As far as the ECM see's it's at 14.7 when in fact it's really 14.2:1. Steve has tested along with Rider57 that 13.8 is about max on the narrowband sensors. They can explain that part of it and have the lab tests to back it up better than I could ever do.
I can however maybe help you with an example in laymans terms. It's always easier for me to relate it to something I know.
Put different sized tires (IED's) on your car/truck. The speedo is the 02 sensor. Cruise control is the ECM.
Crude, but it works for me.
_____________________________
If I was one... I wouldn''t tell ya! If I wasn''t one... I wouldn''t walk around saying I was!
08 RG BUB 7 TD
08 Buell Blast
02 Heritage
82 SECA Turbo
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/9/2008 11:03:57 PM
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MotorMedic
Posts: 66
Joined: 2/17/2008
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I'm not sure why this became a battle of who knows what, or more, than the other guy. Cruiser, Rider, Heywood, and others have provided a wealth of practical and technical information to those of us who lack the same. Practically all of us who have tried and used this product have been pleased, if not thrilled, with the results. I'm not sure why wmw has chosen to antagonize some of us and question the results that we've all experienced first hand.
Wmw, if you've tried the IEDs in any form and are displeased, just say so, and tell us why. If you haven't tried them, then IMHO, you've got nothing further to contribute to this thread. Many riders are benefitting from the exchange here and if you've got nothing to add from your experience with them, then just go away. I'm not a mechanic or an engineer of any kind, I'm just a paramedic with 30 years of street time whose scoot runs better. Now if you want to discuss pathophysiology and pharmacology, I'll start another thread and invite you over .
Joe
_____________________________
2008 ElectraGlide Classic
Crimson Red Sunglo
Nightrider IED's
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 5/10/2008 5:36:52 AM
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Donny
Posts: 259
Joined: 5/31/2007
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Heywood, everything you said makes perfect sense to me, (except the cruise control and tire analogy, lol) just kidding. I still don't know why the o2 sensors don't change voltage, when they're in what the computer thinks is a rich condition,,,,ah crap, I think I answered my own question with the question. Well, the comp thinks it's 14.7, when in reality it's 14.2, but the o2 sends the signal for a rich mix through the ied that drops the voltage and becomes 14.2, but the comp THINKS it's 14.7. I get it now
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