RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/20/2008 3:19:42 PM
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TickTock
Posts: 631
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I don't know that I truly understand how the 02 sensors work, but I thought that they returned to the ECM a perfect situation in closed loop mode. With that being said I can't see how it would default to 12.5 since it would always think that the AFR that was in the AFR table was being achieved. This is why I thought that the Power Commander would need to be tuned by a dyno so that it could use the 02 eliminators, receive the perfect signal and override down to the desired afr from the dyno and the adjustments in the Power Commander tables.
Maybe I am off base, this is just what I thought.
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/20/2008 4:30:37 PM
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ko4qc
Posts: 714
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I read most of this thread then talked to Steve at Nightrider....told him my setup(07 FXDBI with SEII slipons,Stage One air cleaner and V&V Fuel Pac.)...Steve told me that,since the IEDs didnt affect the AFR at WOT,they work well with the Fuel Pac...ordered my 02 IEDs and should have them by next weekend...thought about going the DIY route but didnt want to alter the stock sensor wires while the bike is under warranty...I will perform my own battery of tests and post results asap...BTW,Steve seemed to be one helluva nice guy...ya think its because I gave him $70?...NAH!!!
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/20/2008 5:09:35 PM
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elpoman
Posts: 86
Joined: 1/27/2008
From: Brookville, Ohio
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How many of you well remove the o2 sensor, before taking you bike into the dealer for any work, even oil changes, because of the warranty? Steve told me that they shouldn't be seen once installed. I'm going to order mine as soon as I get done with this post. My bike is on order, and should be in next weekend, I hope. Its a 08 ultra.
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/20/2008 5:17:45 PM
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knownman
Posts: 37
Joined: 2/10/2008
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Talking about IR (infrared thermometers), I picked one up at Harbor Freight to tune my nitro engine. It was about 35 or 40 bucks but it is accurate. Some IR's are far from accurate as I've found out by testing with other racers temp guns. The best way to find out if your gun is working accurately is to do two test runs. Here's how. First fill a glass with cold water and ice. Get as much ice in as possible. After it has a chance to get to temp check it with the gun. It should read pretty close to 32 degrees F. Next for the high temp, fill a tall pot with water and toss it on the stove. Fire it up until it has a rumbling boil and take a measurement. This should be at or near 220 degrees F. Try to make sure you don't get a false readiing on the side of the pot. Of course this will only give you a few temps to check but at least you will know if your gun is close.
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/20/2008 5:24:29 PM
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knownman
Posts: 37
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Screwed up one thing The hot temp should be at 212 degrees F. Sorry , Brain is to full of god knows what?
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/20/2008 5:42:36 PM
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Gundog
Posts: 537
Joined: 8/5/2006
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quote:
I don't quite get what you are trying to do with "eliminators". Are you running a Power Commander and teh IED's? If you are I think there is some redundancy going on there and that is why you aren't experiencing what you are expecting. In addition I don't think 205 or 207 degrees is bad so I am confused...
Tick Tock
I'm trying to get a little better gas mileage than I was getting with my PCIII. I reinstalled the stock air filter and disconnected the PCIII but I left the O2 eliminators installed. I started following this thread and decided to give the O2 IED a try.
With the PCIII I was getting about 37 MPG and without the PCIII I'm getting right at 40 MPG.
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Dave
2007 FLSTC
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/20/2008 5:47:44 PM
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Gundog
Posts: 537
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quote:
elpoman wrote:
Steve told me that they shouldn't be seen once installed.
I don't think thats true. There's no place to hide the front O2 IED. At least not on my bike.
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Dave
2007 FLSTC
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/20/2008 7:28:34 PM
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ko4qc
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If I were taking the bike in under warranty,I would definately remove them...the "STEALER" will document anything that may be to their advantage...JMPO...YMMV...:>)
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/20/2008 8:11:25 PM
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heywood727
Posts: 607
Joined: 1/8/2008
From: Edmonton Ab. Canada
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Gundog......
Are you talking about the LC1's or the 02 IED's? From what I've saw on the site, the 02's are basically the same wire that has a resister in it. I'd think you'd have to look really close to tell the difference. Plugs in the same and to the same point as stock.
Now the LC1's... I can see that. Just wondering if we're both talking about the same thing?
If you watch his video on the installation of the LC1's, right at the beginning, he shows where and how to disconnect the 02 wires on a RK for the front pipe both at the 02 sensor and where you unplug it at the stock connection 8-10" away. Just don't take out the 02 sensor. Same with the back.
If it's only the 02 IED's your doing, stop right there...that's all you have to do.
It would make sense that the AFR would fail safe to 12.5 in the advent of an 02 sensor going south.( or not having 1 at all) Better to flood the cylinder with gas and lots of black smoke rather than lean and cooking the top of your heads and piston out.
Anybody that has them in now...does this sound about right? Or am I looking at this sideways?
_____________________________
If I was one... I wouldn''t tell ya! If I wasn''t one... I wouldn''t walk around saying I was!
08 RG BUB 7 TD
08 Buell Blast
02 Heritage
82 SECA Turbo
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/20/2008 11:03:05 PM
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MotorMedic
Posts: 66
Joined: 2/17/2008
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I've been following this subject since the beginning and I'm pretty convinced IEDs are the way to go. I just bought my first Harley (08 Electraglide Classic ) and will hopefully be picking it up in a couple of weeks. (I'm in Massachusetts, so it's still crummy weather) I know a couple of friends with Ultras that complain about the heat and I was pretty concerned until I started reading this thread. Thanks for all the great info. As a new HD owner, is there anything else I should consider? I have to say, I'm a little worried about tinkering too much with a brand new toy that i just sank 19 large into. For short money, it looks like I can decrease the heat problem and install them right off the bat and get better performance too. Thanks again for all the information and I'll be keeping a close eye on the proceedings here (until the weather breaks anyway ) Joe
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/20/2008 11:53:44 PM
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heywood727
Posts: 607
Joined: 1/8/2008
From: Edmonton Ab. Canada
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Thanks Cruiser...So I am looking at it the right way... It's just the IED's...I was just wondering what Gundog was saying. When I read it, it sounded like he was talking about the LC1's.
quote:
Gundog
I don't think thats true. There's no place to hide the front O2 IED. At least not on my bike.
quote:
Heywood
If you watch his video on the installation of the LC1's, right at the beginning, he shows where and how to disconnect the 02 wires on a RK for the front pipe both at the 02 sensor and where you unplug it at the stock connection 8-10" away. Just don't take out the 02 sensor. Same with the back.
If it's only the 02 IED's your doing, stop right there...that's all you have to do.
The video was a great help..Even though I'm not putting in the LC1's, it showed me the part I needed.
MotorMedic..
Congrates on you first HD and welcome to the form. Your going to love it..There's a million things you can do. These forms are a great place to learn from the mistakes of others and to find things that appeal to you. Try your scooter out for a bit... you might be as happy with it stock. Wealth of information here and the other sites. Some good...some negative....You're your own best filter on things you'll read. Some have a difference of opinion...but that's what it is...an opinion.
You've got the smiley thing down so that's a good start. A lot of people take things that are written the wrong way because they can't tell how the person on the other end is joking or serious.
Good place to start is the touring section..Introduce yourself and explain what you have planned for you bike. You could even take your post from above and put it there. Lots of traffic there and in the general section.
_____________________________
If I was one... I wouldn''t tell ya! If I wasn''t one... I wouldn''t walk around saying I was!
08 RG BUB 7 TD
08 Buell Blast
02 Heritage
82 SECA Turbo
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/21/2008 4:01:46 AM
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Gundog
Posts: 537
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Heywood
I'm talking about the O2 IEDs. The front O2 sensor connector plugs into a connector that goes to the ECM and is hidden neatly behind a plastic cover on top of the voltage regulator. When you put the O2 IED in line, you now have two connectors out side the cover with no place to hide.
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Dave
2007 FLSTC
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/21/2008 10:44:54 AM
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smokin
Posts: 93
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I just installed a set of these on my 2008 SG. Took about 5 minutes - including the beer. Bike fired right up , sounds great, settled into an idle
Can't ride - 15 degrees and snow covered roads outside
Let you all know how my incredibly accurate butt dyno reads out after I've ridden the thing around a little. Sitting in the garage it felt like 3.5 additional HP and 5.1 ft/lbs torque at 3550 RPM. Like I said - my butt is the benchmark that most matters to me!!
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/21/2008 11:19:45 AM
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Mr. Clean
Posts: 118
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Cruiser85257: At your suggestion, I removed the Screamin' Eagle A/C and installed the stock A/C. With the IED's still installed I rode the same route as the previous two tests.
My seat-of-the-pants impression is that the bike runs OK with the stock A/C and the street legal SE slip-ons, but it is not as responsive as it was with the SE A/C. It accelerates OK, but not quite as strong as with the SE A/C. Part of my impression may be that I no longer can hear the intake sucking with the stock A/C like I did with the SE A/C.
Anyway, so that people do not have to go back to my previous post, I am posting the temperature results for all three tests below. All the tests were performed on my 2007 Road King Classic without the windshield installed. I rode the same 13 mile loop each time. I tried my best to ride the same on each test, but there were some variations due to traffic conditions. The ambient temperatures were within 2 degrees F for all the runs (76-78) degrees.
Test 1 is with the SE A/C, SE slip-ons and without the IED's
Test 2 is with the SE A/C, SE slip-ons and with the IED's
Test 3 is with the stock A/C and with the IED's
A. Stopping after a 55mph ride with occasional brisk acceleration-
Test 1 Front Cyl 310-315 degrees, Rear Cyl 330-337 degrees
Test 2 285-290 310-322
Test 3 257-265 285-293
B. Stopping at a traffic light, riding one more block and checking temps-
Test 1 Front Cyl 325-330 degrees, Rear Cyl 345-355
Test 2 298-310 320-328
Test 3 280-287 300-308
C. Stopping at the security gate in my community, riding 1/2 mile home at 25-30mph
Test 1 Front Cyl 350-355 degrees, Rear Cyl 380-385 degrees
Test 2 330-340 355-365
Test 3 305-315 330-338
My conclusion is, that without any question whatsoever, installing the Nightrider IED's helped my engine run cooler. It also confirms that the addition of a freer flowing air cleaner makes a bike run hotter. It is understood that hotter running is mainly the result of a leaner mixture.
For the time being, I am going to leave my stock air cleaner on. However, I am going to do some further investigation before I decide whether to put back the SE A/C.
It is my understanding that the O2 sensors only impact the ECM at thrott
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2007 Road King Classic, SE A/C & Street Legal slip-ons, Stage 1 download.
Previous Bikes: BMW R1150RT, 1997 Heritage Classic and five Hondas
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/21/2008 1:32:09 PM
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elpoman
Posts: 86
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From: Brookville, Ohio
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I'm new to this forum, and I still do not know all of the ins and outs, of it yet. I'm very interested in this posting, because I'm getting my first Harley, 08 Ultra in a few weeks, and have ordered the Nightrider 02 IED's, and want to see what every one is saying about them, so I'm posting this to add the e-mail to replies. I hope this works. If I need to do something else, to get email alerts, could someone let me know.
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/21/2008 2:44:09 PM
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Badfinger
Posts: 505
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From: Ohio
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+1
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/21/2008 4:07:04 PM
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snuffer
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Hey guys, just wanted to thank all of you for the great details. Mr. Clean, my fingers were sore just looking at your write up. This is good stuff! Also, you may want to look at the article in this months American Iron about the S&S bolt on Air Cleaner gaining 10hp. It states that the ECM will self adjust to AC or pipe changes, returning the A/F mixture back to the factory setting of 14.7:1, without a download.
Thanks Again!
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/21/2008 4:45:09 PM
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Bill Hilly
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Build your own IEDs' for about $1.00 at radioshack. Do some reverse engineering and your done. Look up "devide by calculator" on the net. Electronic guys know what I'm sayn.
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/21/2008 4:58:46 PM
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Mr. Clean
Posts: 118
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snuffer: Thanks, I read the article in AIM. However, based on my personal experience, I do not agree with the part about the A/F returning back to 14.7 .
I purchased my used '07 Road King Classic from a H-D dealer. The dealer was not the original selling dealer, had no service history on it, but said it was traded in to them on an Street Glide. It had the Screamin' Eagle Stage 1 air cleaner kit on it and stock pipes. The dealer thought that the original owner may have had aftermarket pipes on it and replaced them with the stock pipes before trading it. I thought that perhaps the original owner might have had the ECM recalibrated. Before signing the final papers, I had the dealer put it on their computer and they said the ECM has the original factory fuel mapping.
I thought that it might be running lean with the SE A/C, so I had it dynoed. In closed loop mode the A/F was 15.1. Even though the O2 sensors were connected the A/F was still leaner than 14.7. That is why I disagree with the AIM statement.
If I had known then what I now know about the lean running issue, I would have insisted that the dealer either do the Stage I download or install a stock air cleaner before I paid for the bike.
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2007 Road King Classic, SE A/C & Street Legal slip-ons, Stage 1 download.
Previous Bikes: BMW R1150RT, 1997 Heritage Classic and five Hondas
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/21/2008 7:21:24 PM
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Trucky911
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bill Hilly
Build your own IEDs' for about $1.00 at radioshack. Do some reverse engineering and your done. Look up "devide by calculator" on the net. Electronic guys know what I'm sayn.
Could you post how to do it in the DIY thread. Thanks...Trucky911
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/21/2008 7:54:11 PM
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heywood727
Posts: 607
Joined: 1/8/2008
From: Edmonton Ab. Canada
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Thanks Gundog......my 02 doesn't have the 02 sensors. Cool picks. Now I know what you were getting at.
_____________________________
If I was one... I wouldn''t tell ya! If I wasn''t one... I wouldn''t walk around saying I was!
08 RG BUB 7 TD
08 Buell Blast
02 Heritage
82 SECA Turbo
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/21/2008 8:25:46 PM
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ToBeFrank
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mr. Clean
It is my understanding that the O2 sensors only impact the ECM at throttle settings below about 40% throttle (closed loop) which is where most of us ride when cruising around or riding at steady legal speeds on the highway. With throttle settings above 40% (open loop) the O2 sensors have no impact on the ECM, but the ECM richens the mixture according to how it is programmed. Basically most of us only run in open loop when accelerating hard or riding at high speeds. Please correct me if I am wrong on this.
This is correct. But rather than throttle position, it's load. So at low load, i.e. light throttle and cruising, you're in closed loop. I know... same difference.
quote:
I believe that the Nightrider IED's are an excellent mod at a minimal cost for a stock bike.
I agree.
quote:
2. Now let's take a stock bike and add a better breathing air cleaner. The bike is now leaner due to more air in. Let's say the A/F ratio in closed loop is now 15.2 (Mine was actually 15.1 as measured on a dyno).
It's possible that with the stage 1 mods, you've upped your VE (actual, not what's stored in the map) enough that the closed loop is out of it's range for correction. Of course, the dyno sniffer could just be reading leaner than the stock sensors or the stock sensors are reading richer. The only way I can think of to test this is to get your bike dynoed without the stage 1 mod and see what the AFR is.
quote:
A. Adding just the Nightrider IED's would probably accomplish bringing the A/F in closed loop back to the stock 14.7 which is still lean. You might have gained a small amount of performance by adding the better breathing air cleaner but your bike would still be running just as lean as a stock bike.
Assuming it is indeed out of the closed loop's correction range, this makes sense, although the open loop areas would be even leaner than stock.
quote:
B. Alternatively, you follow the recommendation of the MOCO and have a Stage I download installed. Supposedly the Stage I download will return the closed loop A/F ratio back to EPA legal 14.7. If you now install the Nightrider IED's, I believe that the A/F ratio will be 14.2 in closed loop mode. This would definitely help with the lean running and high temperature issues. The Nightrider IED's would be a great addition to Stage I mods and a Stage I download.
You'd also get the open loop areas back to stock AFR (or close to it) due to the download. So basically you'd have close to the same AFRs as a stock bike with the IEDs.
quote:
I know that many people say that the Stage I download is a waste of money and that it only increases the rev limit to 6200RPM. However, I believe that the Stage I download does more than that. Somehow the mixture is enrichened – or the bike would be running so lean as to cause engine damage.
Agreed. It adds fuel to match up with the increased air flow. More air plus more fuel means more power.
quote:
Unless I am totally wrong in my understanding, I think that a Stage 1 download on a bike with the Stage I mods plus the Nightrider IED’s, might help more than just adding the IED’s without the download.
Again, I agree.
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If someone out there really KNOWS more about this, please feel free to comment.
Can't say I know more than anyone else, but you're thinking is spot on IMHO.
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RE: Nightrider O2 IED's - Field Test - 2/21/2008 9:10:02 PM
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