Just came back from testing Nightriders O2 IEDdevice. Just a simple wire that slightly reduces the voltage that the O2 sensor sends back to the ECU.
http://www.nightrider.com/parts/ (http://www.nightrider.com/parts/)
Here's my results. The last time I tested the Bike I had the Terminal Velocity II on. Outside temp was 65 degrees. The temperature of my heads taken with an infrared thermometer just to the left of the spark plug was 320 degrees front, and 350 degrees rear. Fuel mileage was around 44 mpg.

Today without the terminal velocity II and just the O2 IED's installed from Nightrider. Outside temperature was 60. The temperature of my heads taken with an infrared thermometer just to the left of the spark plug was 244 degrees front and 250 degrees rear. Fuel mileage was 42 mpg.
Bike ran good, exhaust sounded louder. Pretty amazing for a device that costs only $69.99.
Accessories running on my Bike are an RK3909 K&N air kit and Rush Mufflers with 2 inch baffles.
Pulled the plugs and they had just a slight tint of tan compared to last time where they were white.
With results this good I am tempted to buy their LC1 Wide Band sensors and try adjusting a little lower AFR.

This is not another Nightrider advertisement. As most of you thought I was working for Terminal Velocity. The TVII worked good, fuel mileage was excellent, but it just didn't cool my Motor. According to Jim the Tech guy he says my unit is not the norm and they plan to send me a new one. After todays results I'm not sure I need anything. Its amazing what dropping the AFR to just 14.2 did for my engine temperature. I wish I had tested the TVII to see how high the AFR was running.

My advice, save yourself $150 plus labor for the dealers stage one and do the O2 IED instead.

I'm sure a good tune up with a SERT couldn't help to make it run better, but with these results I'm happy. Took a whole 10 minutes to install.

Cruiser good to hear. I have them sitting in my garage, awaiting for spring. Give us a follow up.

Thanks Fastbagger, will do. I'm thinking about now grabbing their LC1's.

I put them on my 08WG and I'm pretty happy. Bike runs great and the engine is a little smoother at speed. 14.7 is just too lean.

It's amazing what going from 14.7 to 14.2 will do for the Bike. I never would have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes.

Thanks for the link cruiser. Expensive being the Guinea pig. I hope you can recover your costs. This might be the answer I'm looking for.
BTW did you have a Stage 1 flash prior to putting these in?

Heywood:

No, I never had the dealer do a stage one.

"Expensive being the Guinea Pig". Terminal Velocity II has been around for a while now. According to their Tech Man I just got a hold of a Bad one. They're suppose to send me a new one, we'll see. The way the Bike runs now with Nightriders O2 IED I just might leave it alone as it is running good now and a whole lot cooler.

I'm really curious now to see how Nightriders LC1's work.

NAMZ sells these also. Not sure if its the same thing or their own brand.
http://www.namzcustomcycleproducts.com/NO2-IED.htm

Now that I think about it whats a better choice?

$160 for these?
$150 for the stage 1 down load?

Or will you still have the same heat issues with the down load? Is there anything the down load gives that these dont?

Sorry at the point of needing to do this so I thought I would ask.

ORIGINAL: cspcrx

NAMZ sells these also. Not sure if its the same thing or their own brand.
http://www.namzcustomcycleproducts.com/NO2-IED.htm


Same thing, and the download from the dealer is still lean.
And the $79.99 is for a pair.

CSPCRX:

If you read on Namz site, it says right on there "NAMZ has teamed with Nightrider Performance to bring you an inline enrichment device or Oxygen Sensor IED that does just that."

Nightrider created it and is seeking a patent. Namz is a distributor for them it appears.

I have to work on the reading thing.
Left to right
Top to bottom
Letters form words
words form sentences
:D
I did not notice that the prices was per pair. Then that makes it even better.
Is there enough in the stock map though to keep up with a stage one. Or, would you get even more if you did both the download and these IEDs?

I have asked the stage one question here as well as other forums as to exactly what does it do. I never got an exact answer. I take that back, it increases your rev limiter to 6200. Other than that people were speculating with answers like timing. They obviously can't richen the bike up for EPA reasons. So to answer your question, I don't have a clue. It certainly can't hurt, and maybe it will add some benefit.

We'll have to see. I'm getting the stage 1 along with the Rinehart TD's - cross over. I have the Stage 1 on the 02 and have no complaints.(then again I might not miss what I don't know) I did Look at the Terry TV which is $600 here, FI200 02 for $395.( I know I can get it cheaper online......I like my Indy and don't mind throwing him a bone to keep him around)

I have seen your posts Cruiser and I too am looking for a simple plug and play system that works well. My HD doesn't have to be a world beater, I just want it to run better, cooler, and react better without breaking the bank. I'm in no way cheap.... I just want value for my $$$ and messing around with maps and tuners is time I would rather ride with.

Some say SERT,PCIII,ThunderMAX, The new system that Steve Cole is producing..... everyone has a favorite. Not sure which one is the Magic Bullet.. I guess it depends on what one wants?

My other concern is how the systems react with the Fly BY Wire and ABS systems? Warranty outside of the SERT? Keep us updated the more you play. I enjoy your objective looks on these products you've been using. Really.... for $79..... to do what I'm looking for might be it? Better to be pissed at $79 vs. $799

Thanks again for the heads up.

Thats $79.99 for a pair(2 each)Regards,Tom
ORIGINAL: cspcrx

Now that I think about it whats a better choice?

$160 for these?
$150 for the stage 1 down load?

Or will you still have the same heat issues with the down load? Is there anything the down load gives that these dont?

Sorry at the point of needing to do this so I thought I would ask.

THEY ARE ON SALE NOW FOR 69.99 W/FREE SHIPPING BECAUSE ITS BIKE WEEK.Regards,Tom
ORIGINAL: TOMCENTRAL

Thats $79.99 for a pair(2 each)Regards,Tom
ORIGINAL: cspcrx

Now that I think about it whats a better choice?

$160 for these?
$150 for the stage 1 down load?

Or will you still have the same heat issues with the down load? Is there anything the down load gives that these dont?

Sorry at the point of needing to do this so I thought I would ask.

Thanks Heywood,

I feel exactly the same way you do. My days of fussing around are long ago. I don't want the fastest bike on the block, just the best running all around bike.

I have a love hate relationship with the TVII. I love its simplicity. Love the easy way it hooks up. In a lot of ways it did make the Bike run better. Fuel mileage was never higher. But there was something going on with the last unit I had that just made it run too lean and the engine too hot. It's odd though, because not all the signs of running lean were present. It didn't pop on decel. It didn't surge at low speed. But those temps I got off the heads were too high, and my spark plugs were too white.

The TVII Tech tells me the bike should be running in the upper 13's. I find that hard to believe after my latest experience with the nightrider IED's which run 14.2 and cooled my motor by as much as 100 degrees. They agreed with no hesitation that my unit was not working right and authorized its return immediately. I have a friend who has an 08 with the fly by wire and he just ordered a TVII. I'll let you know how me makes out.

ORIGINAL: heywood727
My other concern is how the systems react with the Fly BY Wire and ABS systems?

Thanks again for the heads up.


I have a set ordered for my 08 Street Glide, I will let you know how it works out.

Later
Barry

Thanks barrygreen Appreciate it.

Here's the funny part. In past threads I have been kicked around a little for defending the TVII and what it does.


I know... I read that complete post...it was funny. Maybe not from your side.... but sitting on the fence was like watching a tennis match.

Cruiser..... when you get you TVII back, are you going to post a comparison on the two systems??? I'd be really interested on getting a real life honest review. The only other system I've been looking at is the FI2000. Due to the warranty issues and how dealers try to pin things, I am in the market for something that can be removed should there be a problem. The Magnuson thing doesn't hold water in Canada.

Heywood, if I ever get a good TVII that works as they say it should you'll be the first one to know. This will be my last attempt. I'm a patient Man but my patience is wearing thin these days.

I think what I'll do is run it up to the local Dyno and just have them do a few simple tests to give me a true AFR. If it's not what they tell me its suppose to be then it's time for a refund.

If so my next adventure will probably be the LC1's from Nightrider. I like dealing with Steve. He's a very passionate Man about his work and his follow through is excellent. The IED's were exactly what he said they would be. His shipping is second to none. I spoke to him late on Friday and he said he would try to get it out before the weekend. Not only did he get it out, but I had it on Monday....unbelievable. That's the kind of people I love to work with.

My inlone enrichers are enroute. Thanks for the info cruiser....

Thanks Cruiser.. I can wait:)

Don't have a choice. New scoot was started on the 4th and won't be here till beginning of March and I won't be able to ride till the end of it. All I can do is read and learn till then...lol

RJMac your welcome.

Heywood that 08 Road Glide will surely be worth the wait.

Thanks cruiser, I've wanted one for the last 4 years now. Kind of the same set up as my Turbo SECA, but with bags. They are here if you've never seen one. 14.5 lbs. boost@6500 rpm

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj38/Heywood727/bikekeeper3.jpg

I pulled my PC 111 USB because of bad mpg like 31 or 32mpg riding two up. Put the stock A/C back on hooked up the 02 sensors left the true duells on with the open mufflers, and no getting 43 mpg 2 up in 6th gear 70 to 75 mph, also run a oil cooler, its still cool here ,70s but only seeing oil temps in the 230s. will be adding the ieu 02 , next week will keep track of the oil temps during the summer, I lost some power by taking out the PC but it does start better and the leg heat is bearable, the duells help that. Doc

Interesting topic. I'm expecting my first "NEW" Harley by the start of spring and I've been trying to figure out about the tuning options for what I really need. I am pretty sure that I want to put a set of 2" Rush slip-ons and a better air filter. What I'm not sure about is if I need to do a tune, or get a sert; pc111; etc. Would I be able to get away with these IED's? I don't need to get any where too fast and I'm not going to do any motor mods in the near future. I just want a solid running, cool running, good looking bike. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

ORIGINAL: HDDOC

I pulled my PC 111 USB because of bad mpg like 31 or 32mpg riding two up. Put the stock A/C back on hooked up the 02 sensors left the true duells on with the open mufflers, and no getting 43 mpg 2 up in 6th gear 70 to 75 mph, also run a oil cooler, its still cool here ,70s but only seeing oil temps in the 230s. will be adding the ieu 02 , next week will keep track of the oil temps during the summer, I lost some power by taking out the PC but it does start better and the leg heat is bearable, the duells help that. Doc


Im with ya doc... i got vance and hines header with thunderheader slipons with stock ac. Bike is running good with little to no poping on decel. I really want to put my Big Sucker on thats sitting in the garage but cant seem to make up mind on which way to go as far as sert, pc or tmax. Seems like everyone has some sort of issue with one or the other. Im leaning more towards the pc with a dyno because of cost. Good post you guys have going on here :D
[sm=popcorn.gif]

I just order them on Saturday. They said they are shipping them on Wednesday. I talked to the service manager about them when I ordered the stuff for the RG. He confirmed that the Stage 1 still falls into the EPA guidelines as they have to. He was really interested in these as well. There is a download for the 08 now. I should of asked him if it does adjust the timing or not.

Sounds like the factory is really ahead. The RG went from March 15th to beginning of March to possibly Feb. 26th. I think I'll hang on to the Nightriders till 1000k. Just to see how it acts with the Stage 1, then I'll put them in. (If I can wait) Spring can't come fast enough.

Knownman:

Sounds like the same setup I have. Rush 2 inch baffles, and the RK3909 K&N air kit. I did the Nightriders O2 IED's and the bike runs nice and cool now. Today is going to be in the upper 70's, so I'll have a better chance to test these out some more.

Stay Tuned...:)

Shawn:

Add one more to the list, the LC1 WB O2's from Nightrider. Best way to find out about them is to call Steve. He'll spend as much time as you like on the phone answering questions.

Cruiser, update?

Cruiser, Looking forward to hearing how she runs. I'm getting a Fat Bob come spring and just don't want to spend money on things that I really won't need. I'd rather put it towards pegs, grips etc. Did you get your Rush 2" slip-ons from Fuel Moto?

Fastbagger, Knownman. Something came up today so I never got my ride. But tomorrow is looking even better and warmer. I'll get that ride in for sure tomorrow. I'm anxious to see if it holds Temps in the mid 200's.

One thing I noticed last time that I have never seen before. That wasted air temperature gauge they stuck in the group. Mine has never been below 80, and during the summer it's always pegged to the right. I noticed last time it dropped significantly like just above 60. Now that's a first. :)

I got my Rush from one of the Dealers out here. It was a disply model and had a scuff on it in an area you would never see anyway. They knocked 15% off for that so I grabbed them.

Well, I called and spoke with Steve and he is a pretty bright fellow. I ordered a set today and should have them on within a week or so. If all you're planning on is a AC and set of slip ons for a 2008 - this may well be the ticket. Since they do not effect WOT at all, they will not show up as more HP on a dyno - but I ride on dynos very little! Theyshould make for increased ridabilityoff idle and steady cruise - whereI DOride alot. This is one of those products that people don't think can work because it cost too little. If they were covered in titanium and went for $300 a pair they would get better "respect"
Time, will tell
-Smokin

Got my IED's yesterday and decided to try them out like Cruser did.
My Bike is still totally stock as far as pipes and air filter.
Today the temps are in the mid 50's and no wind. Before the installation
of the IED's I rode the bike 30 miles and mesured the temp like Cruser.
The front was 305, rear was 320 after a hard run. Then I installed the
IED's. Right away I could tell a difference in the acceleration and the bike
seems much smoother and quicker. After taking the same route the
heads were much cooler, 230 front and 245 rear.

Another thing I did was to use Blue Job polish after the bike cooled down
on the head pipes to get rid of that purple tintthey had and... it is still chrome,
not a hint of blue after riding with the IED's installed. ( I will repost if they turn again).
My head pipeshad turned blue/purple from the heads down about 8"in the first 50 miles
when the bike was new. Not real sure what kind of test this was, but I figured what the heck.

I have ridden a total of 80+ miles today and I am very happy with the results of the IED's...
Best $69.99 I have ever spent!

Nice job duplicating my test Barry. I'm amazed how close your temps are to mine. Unlike your bike which is stock, I have the K&N air kit and Rush Mufflers. Doesn't seem to make any real difference.

This is defintely one of those times when you get what you pay for doesn't apply. For only $69 and such a simple install, it should be mandatory to install them on all stock bikes.

Thanks for sharing your results.

I was thinking about trying the stock air kit again, and even the stock mufflers. But after seeing your results, I'm not sure it's necessary.

barrygreen & cruiser85157:
I have the SE air cleaner and the Street Legal SE slip-ons on my '07 RK Classic. With outdoor temps in the high 70's and low 80's, after a ride, I am reading 355-360 degrees on the front cylinder head near the sparkplug and 380-385 on the rear cylinder. I also have the O2 IED's installed. I do not have a Stage 1 download.

Where are you measuring your temps?

Same place as you...but it is cooler here when I tested.
I expect to see the temps go up when the temps rise here.
Even in the mid 50's the air here has a bite to it an is a little damp
from the storms yesterday. The damp cool air could be a big
factor here. I wiil test it again on a dryer warmer day, I don't see this
post fading away anytime soon ;)

How long after stoping did you measure the temp? I had my
thermometer handy so I could check the temp soon after I stopped.
I did not want a false "Hot Soak" reading with no air flowing, if you know what I mean.

These things work, and they should. That is the whole point, right?
I am sure everyone will have different temp readings, but I think everyone
who tries these will agree on the performance imprvement over stock for
little cost.

Mr. Clean something isn't right. The spot I placed the laser pointer was about 1 inch to the left of the spark plug in line with it. If I played with the thermometer and pointed it in back of the spark plug I would get higher temps. But keep in mind that both Barry and myself hit the 300's without the O2 IED's from Nightrider. We both hit the 200's pretty close to the same results with the IED's. My bike like yours has an air kit, and Rush mufflers with 2 inch baffles. I don't believe that your outside temp of high 70's could create such a huge difference. Nightrider has a test to see if your wires are working properly, I would test them.

Your results are what I would expect from a stock bike with no device of any kind on it.

I hope you figure it out.

Cruiser how did your experiment work?

Fastbagger unfortunately my back is not co-operating with all this gorgeous weather we are having. I see Barry's post and his results are amazingly almost identical to mine. Which doesn't surprise me too much. I've run across a number of posts from people who tried them and had good results.

I'm thinking about for my next experiment to put the stock air cleaner back on in an effort to increase the richness. Not that it's running too lean, I just like to tinker:D.

Thanks for update. I have the o2 IED's on my bike with stock airbox with k&n filter. Unfortunately I have to wait for this snow to melt before I can ride. Thanks for updates though.

It must be killing you waiting for the snow to clear before you can test them. :(

Oh, it is. My friend lives in VA and he sends me emails everyday of pics of him riding his bike. Depressing.

Good results.

BarryGreen..... Notice if it affected and of your gagessuch as fuel or FBW system? Better responses and difference in sound as cruiser did?

Did not check the milage, does sound better...a little louder and
stronger thru the pipes. Runs alot smoother and better throttle
responce. Performance wise I have it right where I want...
now off to buy more chrome!

What a gold mine of info! Thanks to all of you, I was searching for this info the last couple of days, on the Dyna forum, got some good info there, but you guys clinched it for me. I orderd my IED's yesterday, still got em for $69.99. My question:
I have the stg1 download, K&N hi-flo A/C and Cycleshack slip-ons. Will I still see some improvement, I am not quite stock. Also, do you think I can put some new pipes on later? (V&H Sideshots) anduse these IED's?
All help really appreciated!
"07 Superglide"

cruiser85257:

I pointed the thermometer just to the right of each sparkplug just after a long ride and right after stopping in my driveway with the engine running.

MaybeI will disconnect the IED's, reconnect the stock wires, ride and see if the temps go up. Then I can reconnect them, gofor a rideand try the test again.

What test does Nightrider have to test the IED's?

Mr. Clean: What test does Nightrider have to test the IED's?


Testing the NBO2 Inline Enrichment Device off the bike
If at any time you think your IED is not working properly, you should first make sure the connectors are properly plugged in and are tight. If you still feel there is an issue, you need to remove it from the bike first. Test your IED with a 1.5V battery, 2 paper clips and a volt meter. First you need to check the battery to make sure it is producing 1.5V. Open up the paper clips and install them into the female connector (wiring harness side). Touch the battery to the paper clips so the (+) side is on the blue wire site and the (-) on the grey side. Touch the voltmeter to the male connectors (wiring harness side). You should see 1.00 to .90 volts or about 30% less than the battery voltage. If the correct voltage is present, the IED is working correctly.

I did rideagain today, I still can't get over the performance improvement..for $70 it is a noticible difference.
Oh and the ride was in town, temp in the mid 60's , lots of stop and go...pipes are still chrome under the heat shields:).
I can smell a stonger exhaust smell @ warm up and at stops till the bike is completly warmed up. And
yes I know... 02 info to the ecm is not used till closed loop...but Im telling you these things are great.

Lab Freak, I have the K&N 3909 kit and Rush Mufflers with 2 inch baffles. Look at my IED temps compared to Barrygreen's IED temps. They are very close in the 200's. Barry's Bike is Bone stock. I hope this answers your question.

You know one other thing I noticed on my Bike after I put the IEDS on. My air temperature gauge which normally is a huge waste of space had dropped in temperature significantly for the first time.

Best $69 I ever spent.

Cruiser, thanks, yeah that answers it, I'll check backin when I gett mine and put em on.
BTW, what kind of device are you guys using to measure engine temps? Is it expensive, got a good recommend? Thanks again

We're using an infrared thermometer. They cost around $20 at the auto parts store. A small plastic handheld device that has a trigger/button. You point it at what you want to measure and push the button. It emits a red laser dot to show you where you are aiming. Recommended distance is about 6 inches away from your target. Instantly it shows the temp on an LCD display on the reverse side that faces you. Its a handy little tool to keep around.

ORIGINAL: cruiser85257

We're using an infrared thermometer. They cost around $20 at the auto parts store. A small plastic handheld device that has a trigger/button. You point it at what you want to measure and push the button. It emits a red laser dot to show you where you are aiming. Recommended distance is about 6 inches away from your target. Instantly it shows the temp on an LCD display on the reverse side that faces you. Its a handy little tool to keep around.


Can it tell if your wife heats up? I think we need a test. First test when she is calm and just walking around the house - then test when she is mad. Report back the difference. This is a test I am really interested in!

Hahahaha...I'd prefer an auto sensor for that. You have to get too close to get a good reading, then it's too late cause your in her clutches.

Gundog:

Thanks, will test them and make sure they are fully plugged in. While I have them out, I will go for a ride and check the temps, then reinstall, ride and check temps again. Will post the results.

OK, I removed the IED's and tested them. Both tested OK - about 1.05 volts with a 1.5volt battery connected to the female end. Reconnected the O2 sensor wires without the IED's - 76 degrees today.

I rode the bike on local roads in stop & go traffic,then ona 55mph road in 4th gear. Pulled off theroad into a shopping center, jumped off the bike, pulled out the thermometer and read 310-315 on the front and 330-337 on the rear cylinder. I took readings 1 inch to the left and right of each sparkplug as well as directly on the base of the sparkplug.

I then continued riding, stopped at a traffic light. About a block after the traffic light, I pulled over and checked the temps again. Temps now read 325-330 on the front and 345-355 on the rear.

Finally rode home. Had to stop at the security gate, rode the remaining 1/2 mile to my house at 25-30 mph in 3rd gear. Pulled into the driveway, with engine still running and bike in neutral, I opened the garage door, took off my helmet and measured the temps. Now reading 350-355 on the front and 380-385 on the rear. These readings in the driveway are about the same as they were with the IED's installed.

I can only conclude that waiting at traffic lights, riding slowly, and letting the bike idle for a minute or two before checking temps is allowing the engine to register higher temps. The temps in my driveway without the IED's are similar to the temps I was getting in the same place with the IED's.

Next step, let the bike cool down, install the IED's and run the same tests for comparison.

I'll let you know the results - probably tomorrow because I have an appointment to go to in 45 minutes.

Mr. Clean your temps are in the normal range for a stock bike. When you hook the IED's up you should see a dramatic drop in temps like both Barry and I experienced. Usually below 250 degrees.

If you get the same readings something is not right with your IED's. Your not suppose to bend the wire in the middle. You can arc it slightly, but no severe bends.

Good Luck :)

Cruiser85257: Thanks for informing me that my temps w/o the IED's is normal. With the IED's installed, I never checked the temps immeditely after stopping. I always checked them in my driveway, after I opened the garage door, took off my helmet and gloves and then got the infrared thermometer. I guess, just idling after riding slowly, the temps rose significantly because there was little or no air flowing past the heads.

I did not bend the IED wires in the middle as that is where the resistors are. I did curve the wires slightly to enable them to fit neatly on the bike. Hopefully, tomorrow I will get a chance to repeat the test with the IED's installed.

Mr. Clean a lot of things can affect the temperature. You know like if you live in a busy neighborhood, just cruising down the street slowly to your house out of respect for your neighbors can bring your temperature up without any real air to cool it down. Definitely sitting idling while you open the door, take your gear off and grab the thermometer will make it hotter too.

The main thing is to run your test exactly the same way as you did without the IED's. Then checking the bike under the same exact circumstances with the IED's. You should definitely see a difference.

OK, I renistalled the IED's. Today's outside temperature 78 degrees, 2 degrees warmer than yesterday's test without the IED's. Rode the same route, tried to ride at about the same speeds with small variation due to traffic. I measured the temps at the metal base of the spark plug and at each headbolt on each cylinder. The results show the range of temps on each cylinder. Also, on the front cylinder the lowest temperature was at the front headbolt and on the rear cylinder the lowest temperature was at the rear headbolt. The highest temps on each cylinder were on the two headbolts nearest where the cylinders came together.

The bike seems to run smoother and is more responsive with the IED's than without them.

Here are the before and after results:

1. Stopping after a 55mph ride with occasional brisk acceleration-
W/OIED'sFront Cyl 310-315 degrees, Rear Cyl 330-337 degrees
With IED's 285-290310-322

2. Stopping at a traffic light, riding one more block and checking temps-
W/OIED'sFront Cyl 325-330 degrees, Rear Cyl 345-355
With IED's 298-310320-328

3. Stopping at the security gate in my community, riding 1/2 mile home at 25-30mph
W/OIED'sFront Cyl 350-355 degrees, Rear Cyl 380-385 degrees
With IED's 330-340 355-365

Conclusion: The IED's help. The front cylinder benefits more than the rear cylinder. Even though my readings were a fair amount higher than those that cruiser 85257 and barrygreen experienced, I am convinced that the IED's are helping, butI think I may need to do more to lower the temps and the A/F ratio.

With the stock exhaust and the SE Air Cleaner, I had my bike dynoed and the A/F ratio was running around 15.1 at cruising speeds (part throttle). If the IED's only enrichen the mixtue 0.5, I should now be getting around 14.6 or maybe 14.7 with the SE Slip-ons I added since the dyno run. That means the IED's brought my bike with the add-ons back to stock A/F ratio.

I have to decide whether to have it dynoed again to see what the A/F ratio is. Maybe I need to have the Stage I download installed without the IED's on the bike. That should bring my A/F back down to 14.7 from 15.1. Then if Ireinstall the IED's hopefully the A/F would then be loweredto around 14.2.

I am trying to lower the A/F number to around 14.2 without adding a SERT, Fuel Pak or PCIII or some other device.

I am happy with the way the bike runs - I do not need or want more power, I just want it to run cooler.

Glad to see your headed in the right direction....cooler. It may very well be the difference in outside temperature. Your running in temps close to 80 degrees, while Barry and I were running in temps at least 20 degrees cooler if not more.

Don't waste your money on the stage one download, it does nothing as far as lowering the AFR. Basically it raises your rev limiter is about all it does.

If your not interested in performance than my suggestion is take off the SE Air Kit and put your stock air kit back on. This will make it run a little richer. Also check your O2 sensors and make sure they are tight. Any leakage can cause them to operate falsely.

The theory behind the IED is not that it simply lowers your current AFR by .5. The lowest AFR that your stock ECU can handle with the Narrow band sensors is 14.2. Stephen at Nightrider computed the voltage necessary to force your ECU to operate at it's lowest closed loop AFR of 14.2. So that is where your Bike should be in closed loop.

You can do the same trick by buying a $500 Race Tuner and setting your closed loop Bias tables at 798. This brings your AFR down to 14.2 in closed loop. Stephen has done this for us except its $431 cheaper.

There are other possible differences. Are you running synthetic oil?

What do your plugs look like?

The differences in Temperatures you got are closer to what nightrider advertises his IED's to do. I still think the 80 degree weather has a lot to do with it.

Nice job testing the IED's....Thanks

Mr. Clean any new results?

I've had them on my bike for about 1700 miles now & so far I'm impressed. Before I installed them I was running a Big Sucker intake, Rush slipons, and using a V&H Fuel Pak for EFI management. (Your basic aftermarket Stage 1 setup.) After messing around with different configurations I'm now back to the stock air filter, Rush slipons, and Nightrider IED's for fuel enrichment. (Basically a stock bike with slightly richer air-fuel mix & better sound.) No changes in performance or MPG from one configuration to the next, so I don't miss anything.

I posted this awhile back in another thread, but figured it's relevant here so I'll repost.
I ran the Fuel Pak for about 6 mos/6000 miles. I removed the Fuel Pak and ran on the stock ECM for about a week before I got the IED's just to refamiliarize myself with the stock bike. Then I put the IED's on and have been riding it for about 3 months/1700 miles. My bike configuration is stock engine, stock air filter, Rush slipons with 1.5" baffles, and my impressions (no thermometer readings, just riding impressions) are as follows:

Stock ECM- engine runs good, but very warm. At steady slow speed (<25 mph) part throttle operation the engine has a slight "surge" which is likely attributable to lean AFR. (Surge has been there since new, but this has also been the case with every post-1990 bike I've ever owned.)

Fuel Pak- engine seems to run the coolest with the FP. However, engine occasionally hiccups when cold (not often, maybe once every few hundred miles) and while the sub-25mph "surge" felt with stock ECM is minimized, it can still be felt on occasion.

IED's- Runs cooler than stock and slightly less cool overall than the FP. However, should work as good as or better than FP when stuck in traffic as IED's alter AFR in all throttle conditions associated with closed-loop mode (including idle) and FP only alters AFR off-idle. IED's offer seamless integration (can't even tell they're there) with no hiccups, and sub 25 mph "surge" is completely gone.
Have noticed no significant change in fuel mileage with IED's as compared to FP or stock.

My opinion is that they are worth the money and work as advertised. The are only slightly less effective than a dedicated aftermarket EFI controller, but cost 1/3 to 1/10th as much. They also don't pose any of the problems associated with the aftermarket systems since you are using the stock ECM. They are easy to install, and just as easy to remove if you have a problem with something & need to take the bike in for warranty work.
It's a simple solution to the lean AFR problem for those with stock engines or light modifications (Stage 1 or less) who just want to richen the mix a bit for cooler engine temps & longevity. For this purpose IMO it's a good option.

Lost1 great post. My '07 FLHX has the ied wires, stock airbox with k&n filter, screamin eagle street legal mufflers, and stage 1 ecm download. Can't wait for the snow to melt so I can try out the ied's.

Good post Lost 1.

I've tried a bunch of stuff and spent far too much money. This was on two different bikes. A Cobra FI2000, PCIII, Race Tuner, Terminal Velocity II, and the IED's by Nightrider.

You can't beat the IED's for as little as they cost. Definitely cool the engine, fuel mileage stays good, throttle response is improved, and it made my exhaust louder. I'm thinking about taking my K&N 3909 off and going back to the stock air box to richen it up a tad. I was even thinking of trying the stock mufflers again.

Question? Are the stock mufflers identical, or is the left muffler more restricted than the right?

Thanks for sharing your experience. Great write up.

I have had the thing on order now for over 3 weeks from J&P. THey told me 7 - 14 days back then. I am seriously considering canceling the order and doing the voltage divider thing on my O2 sensors.

I am anxious to hear how your bike runs if you put the new TV2 on your bike when you get it. I am beginning to think that all one really needs to do is to richen the running up a bit if all you are doing is putting on a set of different mufflers. Might even hold true for a slightly less restrictive air filter too.

ORIGINAL: cruiser85257

Good post Lost 1.

I've tried a bunch of stuff and spent far too much money. This was on two different bikes. A Cobra FI2000, PCIII, Race Tuner, Terminal Velocity II, and the IED's by Nightrider.

You can't beat the IED's for as little as they cost. Definitely cool the engine, fuel mileage stays good, throttle response is improved, and it made my exhaust louder. I'm thinking about taking my K&N 3909 off and going back to the stock air box to richen it up a tad. I was even thinking of trying the stock mufflers again.

Question? Are the stock mufflers identical, or is the left muffler more restricted than the right?

Thanks for sharing your experience. Great write up.

Cruiser, I'm not 100% sure if the stockers are identical, but IIRC they were.
I'm running Rush mufflers with 1.5" baffles, which are the smallest & quietest Rush has. They are perfect for me as I get the deep Rush sound (especially after a couple hundred miles & they break in) without the booming volume of the larger baffles.
I tried a Big Sucker on my bike, but found it offered no performance gain or anything else so I took it off. The stocker flows more than enough for my bike & my riding style, so the Big Sucker will be going on Ebay soon.
My bike had a problem with pinging at highway speed last summer even with the Fuel Pack (doesn't ping in cool weather) so I'm going to see how things go this summer with the IED's. If the hot-weather pinging persists I'll take it in & have the timing download done for free from my dealer...

RC, cancel the TVII. The IED's will work better with your Mods and keep the motor cooler.

Because HD is coming out with a new Race Tuner, you can get older ones off Ebay cheap. The only update you need is a $20 CD. I almost had a Race Tuner today for $200 and blew it by waiting too long. With the Race Tuner you can load a base map and change your closed loop bias table and richen the bike up plenty to run great with your mods.

Off topic:
Hey Cruiser, I just noticed you're in Phoenix. I lived there from '75-'78, went to Greenway High, back when 35th & Greenway was out in the desert! Was out there a year or so back & it looks completely different! ;)

ORIGINAL: cruiser85257

RC, cancel the TVII. The IED's will work better with your Mods and keep the motor cooler.

Because HD is coming out with a new Race Tuner, you can get older ones off Ebay cheap. The only update you need is a $20 CD. I almost had a Race Tuner today for $200 and blew it by waiting too long. With the Race Tuner you can load a base map and change your closed loop bias table and richen the bike up plenty to run great with your mods.

I will cancel the order Dave. Thanks......


On another note, not that I am cheap mind you (I like to call myself frugal!!!) but does anyone have a source or part number for the Tyco connectors that are used on the O2 sensors?

I would like to make my own set of O2 bias leads, and I don't want to lay out $70 for a few dollars of parts that I can put together myself.

Anyone??? Bueller???

RCH try this. This company makes all replacement sensor parts for Delphi efi, including the IED's.

http://www.namzcustomcycleproducts.com/NO2-IED.htm

I have a set of IED's coming in the mail right now. Going on a 2008 FLHX. I have a set of 2006 SE Supertrapp slip on's and a HDSE air Cleaner assem. I'm hoping the IED's will correct the overly lean condition that will result from these two mods. Bike is new, we're still having Winter in NE Ohio.
Questions:
Should I still get the HD Stage1 download - I really only want the 6200 redline and I'm not sure I need the download with the IED's from a AFR standpoint. Can anyone confirm that the download will bump the redline to 6200?
thoughts??
-Smokin

Lost 1 where you living now? I'm from the East Coast riginally and thinking hard on going back. The sun may shine a lot out here, but it's too freaking hot to ride a Bike.

Smokin I wouldn't waste your money on the download.

RCH have you seen this?
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hd2007HD_nbo2_volt_divide.htm

ORIGINAL: fastbagger

RCH try this. This company makes all replacement sensor parts for Delphi efi, including the IED's.

http://www.namzcustomcycleproducts.com/NO2-IED.htm


Thanks for that link. It looks like they might have what I was looking for.
Looks like about $13 worth of connectors and about $3 worth of wire, resistors, and shrink tubing to make it myself.

ORIGINAL: bikerbehaviorist

RCH have you seen this?
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hd2007HD_nbo2_volt_divide.htm


Yes I have.
Thanks for the heads up.

ORIGINAL: cruiser85257

Lost 1 where you living now? I'm from the East Coast riginally and thinking hard on going back. The sun may shine a lot out here, but it's too freaking hot to ride a Bike.

Currently in N. Carolina in the military. Spent 5 years in Alaska before coming here in 2005, and will be heading back that way in '09. East coast is good for riding but it's too crowded for my lifestyle (as well as pig-nasty hot & humid in the summer) so I'll be heading back to do a another tour in AK & then retire there.
I'm originally from GA, but spent 3 yrs in AZ as a teen. I still have family in Phoenix & Chandler, but I doubt I'll ever move back there because like you said- it's hot!

Lost One, I spent five years in Wilmington, NC on the Coast. It's not too bad there during the summer. You have a nice breeze from the Ocean.

I'm sure AK is beautiful, but I could never live there. How much riding do you get up there in a year?

ORIGINAL: cruiser85257

Lost One, I spent five years in Wilmington, NC on the Coast. It's not too bad there during the summer. You have a nice breeze from the Ocean.

I'm sure AK is beautiful, but I could never live there. How much riding do you get up there in a year?

Only a few months out of the year are suited to riding in AK. Once the snows start it's time to hang it up for the winter. ATV's are much more plentiful, especially on Kodiak Island where I call "home." ;)

ORIGINAL: RCH

ORIGINAL: cruiser85257

RC, cancel the TVII. The IED's will work better with your Mods and keep the motor cooler.

Because HD is coming out with a new Race Tuner, you can get older ones off Ebay cheap. The only update you need is a $20 CD. I almost had a Race Tuner today for $200 and blew it by waiting too long. With the Race Tuner you can load a base map and change your closed loop bias table and richen the bike up plenty to run great with your mods.

I will cancel the order Dave. Thanks......


On another note, not that I am cheap mind you (I like to call myself frugal!!!) but does anyone have a source or part number for the Tyco connectors that are used on the O2 sensors?

I would like to make my own set of O2 bias leads, and I don't want to lay out $70 for a few dollars of parts that I can put together myself.

Anyone??? Bueller???



RCH,
Yeah you're about right it shouldn't be more than $10-$15 in parts to make the cables. I believe the connectors are the Tyco Superseal 1.5 connectors, assuming you'd use 16 AWG wire you would need the following:


For contacts:
183024-1 pin
183025-1 receptacle

For housings:
282080-1 plug
282104-1

For seal protectors:
281934-2

The hand tool to crimp the contacts is 785353-1 but you can always solder the contact to avoid the cost of the tool. Good luck.

cruiser 85257:
Sorry for not replying sooner, but we have out of town company since last Saturday until tomorrow. I promised the SO that the garage and the bike would be off limits intil the company left.

I purchased my bike used and it already had the SE A/C on it. I recently acquired a used stock A/C assembly from a 2007 Dyna on the internet. It should be the same as the touring A/C. I will check the parts manual to make sure I have all the necessary o-rings, gaskets and give the stock A/Ca try and report the results. While I am not looking for more power, I do not want less power. It will be interesting to see if the bike runs differently with the stock A/C and whether the temps are lower than with the SE A/C.

The bike was serviced by the dealer just before I purchased it so I assume it has dino oil not synthetic. I plan on switching to synthetic when I change the fluids in about 1300 miles.

I checked the plugs a few weeks ago with the SE A/C, the SE slip-ons and the O2 IED's installed. They looked pretty clean - not as brand new, possibly very slightly off white. That and the temperature issue is what got me thinking about whether I should go for a Stage I download, a fueleror stay with the IED's.

Since H-D recommends the Stage I download if you install the SE A/C, I made the assumption that the SE A/C creates a leaner A/F than the stock A/C. This wasproven to be trueby my dyno run with the SE A/C and the stock exhaust - A/F reading of 15.1 at low throttle settings. I do not know how the O2 sensors work, but they definitely did not lower my A/F to 14.2 or even to 14.7. According to Nightrider, the IED's supposedly provide an enrichment to the A/F of about 0.5 Therefore, since my A/F without the IED's was 15.1, I assume that my current A/F with the IED's is about 14.6 with the IED's. No flames intended, but I doubt if the IED's would lower my A/F to 14.2 as you suggested. I guess I would need to have the bike dynoed again to find out what my A/F currently is.

I read your comments about the Stage I download, but cannot help but think there is a bit more to it than just the increase in the rev limiter. My assumption is that if I got the the Stage I download and keep the SE A/C,itwould return my A/F (without the IED's) to around 14.7. Then, when I reinstall the IED's, I would think that would now bring the 14.7 down to about 14.2. Again, only the purchase of a Stage I download and another dyno run would prove or disprove my assumption.

I am not looking to spend lots of money on dyno runs to find out if my assumptions are correct or not. Most likely, if the bike's performance is satisfactory to me with the stock A/C, my SE slip-ons and the IED's, and if the temperatures are lower than with the SE A/C, then I will run with that setup. If I feel that I lost too much performance by going back to the stock A/C, then I am still at square one and will have to decide the next steps.

I do not know whether Steve from Nightrider or someone on this forum knows whether my assumptions are correct or not. Also, does anyone know what the Stage I download really changes besides the rev limit?

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my posts.

I do know that the Stage 1 has to be within the legal limits of the EPA ... = LEAN.

Mr. Clean,

I don't know for sure. Your probably right that the IED brings your AFR down .5 .

I have searched and asked for a while now trying to find out specifically what a stage one does with absolutely no success. No one seeems to know for sure. I don't understand the mystery. Usually when you go into a store and make a $150 purchase you have the right to know exactly what you purchased. Apparently HD is exempt from this simple concept. Just give them your money and don't worry about it, after all they are HD.

I think Barry hit the nail on the head. Bottom line is they can't richen the bike up cause that would be in conflict with EPA standards.

It's a disgrace that we over pay for our bikes and can't get a straight answer about what our money pays for.

Good Luck in your Quest my friend.

I have been studying your field tests of the Nightrider 02 Senor option and have wondered that if the Rear cylinder is always hotter than the front (which it is) what might be the outcome of installing the Nightrider option only on the rear cylinder sensor to possibly get it's operating temperature nearer that of the front.

I will be receiving an 08 Ultra soon and plan on installing the Premium Oil Cooler and one or both of the Nightrider 02 option to hopefully reduce the heat issue. May even install the RJ Heat Deflectors once I figure out how the adjustable rider back rest control mounted under the left side will work.

You all are doing a great job of testing this product and I would guess that Nightrider is reading your test results daily....I hope.

Thanks again

FWIW- my dealer's service manager (seems to know his stuff) told me that the H-D Stage 1 download doesn't alter AFR- it only changes timing...

Hey all, I saw a couple of references to popping on decel in this post, but they looked like they were in the context of other devices. So, to ask straight out, have any of you with the Nightrider IED's had any problem with decel pop?

That is what my dealers "lead tech" told me, changes the timing and raises the rev limit
but does not change the AFR.

Putting one IED on the rear cylinder would cause problems I would think.
On a fuel injection system with O2 sensors you have a base map with minimum and maximum values that the program targets for, looking for that AFR in that block at that moment in time. If the O2 sensors spend too much time at one end of their range, the ECM sees this as a problem, voltage stays high (rich) the ECM tries to lean it out …too lean it will try to richen it. Yes there is a lot more to it than that but that would take forever to explain. I would think the ECM would flag one of the cylinders as having a problem with one IED installed.
Harley designed this engine and they know the rear cylinder will run hotter has been for years, it is behind the rear cylinder getting its hot air...praying for a side breeze.
Every one experiences different things or problems with any motor vehicle, just go to any auto forum and you will see everyone having just about the same issues as get posted here but there is always a better mouse trap and someone faster, we all want more and more…
Make your bike run good (I think the 08’s run damn good stock), make your bike look good, ride and enjoy.

SGDude...no problems here.

SGDude...NONE, and yes with the stock muffs you could hear it without the IED's

And if you will re- read again you will see that I polished off the blueing
I had on the head pipes before the IED install...150 miles later they are still
not turning as dark of a purple like the did the first 50 miles when it was new.
I will say that right at the bend off the head it is turning a light blue fading
to yellow but that is exspected, a lot of heat in that area I dont care how good you tune
one. But at least the pipe is not darl purple down as far as it was.

I've been following this thread with great interest. I bought my bike new in Aug of 06 and the first time I rode it I knew there was a heat issue. My main goal was to cool the bike down and the PCIII took care of that. At 1000k I put in Mobile 1. I then got caught up in the "more performance better sound hype" and put on a K&N air filter and Rush slip-ons.
I recently disconnected the PCIII (but left the O2 eliminators connected) and put the stock air filter and the SE slip-ons back on. The bike runs great has plenty of power and I like the sound better. After a ride the oil temp is about 205 deg with the air temp being about 60 deg. I know the oil temp will get hotter this summer, but if I can keep it below 225 deg I'll be happy.
I just received my O2 IEDs in the mail today and when I get them installed I'll contribute to the "field testing". I'm approaching this with guarded optimism. The best case is the bike will run great with no heat issues and the worst case is I'll reconnect the PCIII.
Thanks to Cruiser and Mr. Clean and everyone else for the great info and the motivation to give the IEDs a try.:D

Field Test #3:

Today I experimented with some new stuff. Also made a discovery from one of my last tests. I noticed that the thermometer was set to Celsius. I have a feeling that those real low 200's I was getting were Celsius. But got the thermometer back to Fahrenheit today.

Today I removed the K&N 3909 air kit and put the stock kit back on. I also removed the Rush mufflers with the 2 inch baffles and put the stock exhaust back on. My mission is to make the Bike run richer.

Outside Temperature today was the warmest it has been at 71 degrees F.

Took the Bike for an easy ride, giving it some throttle along the way to see the response. Overall the Bike seemed to be running good. Not really noticing any real difference in before and after throttle response. Pulled into a gas station, shut it down and pulled out the Thermometer making sure it was Fahrenheit. The Temperature for the rear cylinder was around 300 degrees and the front was around 280 degrees Fahtenheit. I'm still 50 degrees cooler than when I had the TVII hooked up running on a day that was 7 ~ 8 degrees cooler.

Doubled checked my temps when I got home. The Rear was in the upper 290's, and the front was around 280 degrees fahrenheit.

I pulled the rear plug and it now has a tint of tan color on the very top of the white insulator.

I won't be running any more Terminal Velocity II tests. The new unit that they promised to send me is not new. In fact it looks just like the one I sent them. They coiled it up and put rubber bands around it, then shoved it in an envelope for shipping to me. They had promised me a new one. I was expecting it to arrive in the plastic case that new ones are sold in. Like the same case I packed mine in when I returned it to them. The owner refused to talk to me and Hell froze over cause Jim finally called me. He swears that this coiled up mess of wires with rubbers bands holding it together is a brand new unit. Reason being that they tested it first. That's OK, but why didn't they return it to its new plastic case for shipping. I told Jim my problem was running too hot. According to him they conducted every test except to see how hot the engine was running. What a big waste of time. Now he tells me to sell it. I can't do that with a good concience cause I don't know what I am selling. I don't know if it is any good. I'm not like them, I'm not going to sell it to someone else knowing it probably doesn't work. All it's good for now is the junk pile.

Gundog, you are running the stock esm with the o2 sensors eliminated? Does that throw a code?

No code. It's no different than with the PCIII connected.

cruiser-

Almost bought the TVII because of other postings and reviews that you gave of it but I am definitly going to try these especially since I just ordered them. I too am one of those that has a stage 1 download SE A/C and Rush slipons with 1.75 baffles. Whatever richening I get I will be happier about and look forward to hopeful cooler temps as well. Thanks to everyone's research on this product.

Also as a side note, I must avoid any type of ECU interface or replacement for it would void the warranty on my 08 and this is my best apparent oportunity.

ORIGINAL: Lost1

FWIW- my dealer's service manager (seems to know his stuff) told me that the H-D Stage 1 download doesn't alter AFR- it only changes timing...

I don't think he's completely correct. When you do a stage 1 (the mods, not the download), you're changing the amount of air coming into the engine. This means you're changing the VE. My guess is the stage 1 download changes the timing tables and the VE tables, but the AFR targets table remains the same. So effectively, the AFR remains the same as stock. However, if you didn't do the stage 1 download when you did the stage 1 mods, the AFRs would be leaner than stock because the VE tables are wrong. Of course in the closed loop range, the VEs should be adapted such that you get the correct AFR even without the stage 1 download. I'm not sure how the open loop AFRs would look though.

DB252 stay away from the TVII, I'll be posting more in a seperate thread about them.

Great information, great workfrom all of you. In that we are dealing with the HEAT issue have any of you installed the RJS Original heat shield to divert the heat away from the rear cylinder? Besides an Premium Oil Cooler, the Nightrider 02 option and heat shields I guess there isn't much left to try except waiting for the liquid cooled motor of the future. Meanwhile let's have some fun fixing......

ORIGINAL: ToBeFrank


ORIGINAL: Lost1

FWIW- my dealer's service manager (seems to know his stuff) told me that the H-D Stage 1 download doesn't alter AFR- it only changes timing...

I don't think he's completely correct. When you do a stage 1 (the mods, not the download), you're changing the amount of air coming into the engine. This means you're changing the VE. My guess is the stage 1 download changes the timing tables and the VE tables, but the AFR targets table remains the same. So effectively, the AFR remains the same as stock. However, if you didn't do the stage 1 download when you did the stage 1 mods, the AFRs would be leaner than stock because the VE tables are wrong. Of course in the closed loop range, the VEs should be adapted such that you get the correct AFR even without the stage 1 download. I'm not sure how the open loop AFRs would look though.


You bothare correct, but think about this, the VE tables are higher ( number value in percent)due to the fact thatyou change them to say your flowing more air...correct ... the STAGE 1.
But the ECM takes the VE table and tries to hit the AFR tables. So if you alter the VE table and do not change the AIR FUEL RATIO
on the block at the time that the ECM is looking at it...it will try to hit whatever the AFR is. So you can tell the ecm you are flowing what
ever you want at any given map/rpm range, but it will look at the air fuel ratio in the same block and adjust the injector pulse to acheve the
AFR set in the same block. So in short I increase my Air Flow with a free flowing air filter and pipes, but I dont change the air to fuel ratio...so
my ECM is still trying to hit say.... 14.7:1, so it adds mor fuel to the incomming increased air to acheve the 14.7:1 ratio.

So the Stage 1 download isSET FOR AINCREASE IN AIR FLOW but set to hit the target air fuel ratio that the EPA likes...your still lean!
The altered timming is what gives you the feel of more power...along with the fact that you can rev the engine higher witch is
another waste, if your cams are designed to acheve max HP & TQ at a lower RPM then what good are you doing going over that
RPM range???

O2 sensors are used to monitor the exaust to tell the ECM " this is what is coming out" , the ecm tries to correct it, then the O2 reports
back letting the ECM know if it added too much fuel or not enough fuel. They constantly argue with each other trying to acheve whatever is
programmed into the blocks in the AFR tables along with what the MAP sensor is reporting, and the Intake temp and the engine temp and the...
But the ECM is programed for a spacific AFR. Your Dyno guy can change the AFR tables, or you can with a SERT.

The purpose of the IED's...is to fool the ECM and making the report back to the ECM FALSE so now it is thinking it needs to add more fuel to hit the AFR table.
So this is why these $69 items are better than a Stage 1 download...they add more fuel o a lean running engine.

DB252 check this out and be grateful you didn't buy the Terminal Velocity II. http://www.hdforums.com/m_2905745/tm.htm

Hey Cruiser...

I think your probably right on putting them on as soon as I get the bike done. Might as well break it in with them on. Better to be too rich or richer than be lean.

Now as was mentioned.... I too am concerned about the warranty issue with messing with the ECM. I believe Steve has put up a big warning about this on his site.

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hd2007HD_performance_upgrades.htm

If it is true that the stage 1 not only changes the AFRbutthe timing as well, this would greatly benefit the IED's. I doubt that they will be re-flashing the ecm at the 1000k service and doubt that they would be able to see the IED's installed. Might not be a bad idea to be on the safe side to remove them before it goes in, and put them back on after the fact.

I'm not sure how many people are aware of this green light clause that Steve has written about? If these do the trick, great. If I'm not happy, I guess my next try will be the Cobra fi2000. At least you can dial them up and down... not like the TVII's. But Then again..no matter what you do with the Cobra...it's still using the narrowband O2 sensors. From what I've been able to pick up here, it's still not going to get you anything lower than 14.1 correct?? I might have to look at the LC1's. It's half the price of a Thunder Max with The auto tune feature.

I defiantly will stay away from them (TVII's) after what you've gone through. I can get a cobra from my Indy for $295 or the TV's for $600. I know I can get them cheaper on line....but I like to support my Indy when I can.

BarryGreen.....You had the Flash/ AC, and pipesdidn't you before ??

I was wondering......

Is there anyway we can accurately measure our own AFR outside of checking plugs. Any sort of gas detector that we might be able to buy to tell us where it is?? Say a digital CO2 detector? Get some stock readings and see if there is a difference before and after?? Verify the stock and IED's difference with a known from a dyno and compare the CO2 readings?

Any such animal exist??

ORIGINAL: barrygreen
So the Stage 1 download isÂ*SET FOR AÂ*INCREASE IN AIR FLOW but set to hit the target air fuel ratio that the EPA likes...your still lean!

I didn't quite get your first paragraph, but I think we're saying the same thing. With the stage 1 download, yes, you're still just as lean as you were as stock. What I was pointing out is that without the stage 1 download, you'd be running even more lean than stock.

The altered timming is what gives you the feel of more power...along with the fact that you can rev the engine higher witch is another waste, if your cams are designed to acheve max HP & TQ at a lower RPM then what good are you doing going over that
RPM range???

No, the feeling of more power is because you're increasing the VEs in the VE table, which indirectly adds fuel to match the increased air flow. For example, suppose a block in the stock VE table has a value of 50 and the corresponding AFR block is 13.8. Now you add the stage 1 mods but no download. Now the VE in the block should be 60 since you're getting more air, but since there was no download, it's still set at 50. The AFR block is still set to 13.8, but that's not what your AFR will be. The VE of the engine has increased, but the ECM still delivers the fuel for the VE of 50 since that is what the table tells it to do. So you're getting more air but the same amount of fuel. You will not get an AFR of 13.8.

Your Dyno guy can change the AFR tables, or you can with a SERT.

No, the dyno guy's job is to get the VE right (if you're using a SERT). If he gets the VE wrong, the AFR tables are useless.

So this is why these $69 items are better than a Stage 1 download...they add more fuel o a lean running engine.

Only in the closed loop areas.

ORIGINAL: heywood727

I was wondering......

Is there anyway we can accurately measure our own AFR outside of checking plugs. Any sort of gas detector that we might be able to buy to tell us where it is?? Say a digital CO2 detector? Get some stock readings and see if there is a difference before and after?? Verify the stock and IED's difference with a known from a dyno and compare the CO2 readings?

Any such animal exist??

TwinScan II (http://www.daytona-sensors.com/Twin_Scan2.html)

Wow... Thanks
Looks a little out of my league......but I'm persistent.

I've been following this thread with interest. My new Fat Bob doesn't arrive for another month, so I can't test these IED's myself yet, but in looking at the 08 Harley parts catolog I see that Harley offers 2 different oil caps with oil temp gauges on them (one is analog, the other is digital). Since these IED's were made by Nightrider to address the high engine temps associated with 06 and newer 96" motors I'm thinking a good check might be to invest in one of these oil caps with a temp gauge, and check the before and after oil temps with the IED's installed.

Ok, now under the "seemed like a good idea at the time" catagory, I just looked at the catalog again and it doesn't look like Harley offers a cap that fits the newer Dyna's.

Heywood, I am not sure about the new closed loop Cobra's. I know since their tied in with the narrowband sensor they can't accurately get below 14.2. The older ones that used an O2 sensor eliminator had three pots you adjusted almost like tuning a carb. But now they have the CL Cobra which doesn't block off the O2's.

Nightriders LC1's would be deadly accurate, but only in closed loop mode. Somewhere along the way you probably need a Race Tuner. Even if you don't have it tuned, it can help by loading a close map and with some guidance from up here you can change a few values and have a better running bike.

Snuffer HD's oil temp dipstick gauges are not cheap. Your better off to go to the auto parts store and for $20 buy an infrared thermometer.

To Be Frank:

That's the best answer I have ever received about a stage one download. I even understood everything you said. Nice job....:)

ORIGINAL: heywood727

Wow... Thanks
Looks a little out of my league......but I'm persistent.


You aren't kidding! I looked at it wrong the first time. I originally thought it cost $185, but now I see the whole version to measure AFRs is $522. Ouch!

Cruiser, the analog (I'd actually prefer the analog over the digital)oil cap with temp gauge is listed in the harley catalog for $29. I didn't think that was too bad, unfortunately it doesn't look like it would fit the newer Dyna's (Makes me wonder if HD doesn't want us to know what the newer motor temps are?) But the infared sensor you mention would certainly havemore applications.

Cruiser, What type infrared thermometer do you us?

RJMAC:

If you want make and model, I can get that later. I bought it at an auto parts store for like $19.95. It's a plastic cased unit that has an lcd display. Theirs a trigger button on the front and a switch on the back to switch it back and forth between Celsius and Fahrenheit.

ive read another thread somewhere in here ,overwelming harley oil gauge caps are lots of trouble inacurate and ussually dont work at all after a short time

I installed the O2 IEDs today and went for a ride. First impression is that the bike runs about the same as it did with the O2 eliminators. Now this might be me looking for something and this is strictly seat of the pants, but at low cruise steady state the bike tended to "hunt". I don't recall it doing that as long as I hade the O2 eliminators installed.
When I got home and checked the oil temp it was 207 deg. The day before with the O2 eliminators the temp was 205 deg under similar riding conditions. Not enough difference to draw any conclusions.
I'll ride the bike this way for a while and check the mileage and then try the O2 eliminators again for a while and then I might be able to draw a conclusion.

Gundog,
I don't quite get what you are trying to do with "eliminators". Are you running a Power Commander and teh IED's? If you are I think there is some redundancy going on there and that is why you aren't experiencing what you are expecting. In addition I don't think 205 or 207 degrees is bad so I am confused...[sm=dontgetit.gif]

ORIGINAL: bigdumbnoitall00

ive read another thread somewhere in here ,overwelming harley oil gauge caps are lots of trouble inacurate and ussually dont work at all after a short time



I've only heard of problems with the digital ones. Haven't heard of any problems with the analog ones. I've had the same analog one for 5 years and it's spot on according to my infrared thermometer.

Tick Tock I would take 205 anyday of the week. That's cool.

I read somewhere that when you elimnate the O2 sensors that the default AFR is like 12.5. Don't quote me on that.

I don't know that I truly understand how the 02 sensors work, but I thought that they returned to the ECM a perfect situation in closed loop mode. With that being said I can't see how it would default to 12.5 since it would always think that the AFR that was in the AFR table was being achieved. This is why I thought that the Power Commander would need to be tuned by a dyno so that it could use the 02 eliminators, receive the perfect signal and override down to the desired afr from the dyno and the adjustments in the Power Commander tables.

Maybe I am off base, this is just what I thought.

I'm no expert thats for sure. I'm basically referring to someone who simply removes his O2's and plugs up the pipes. Thats where the AFR defaults to 12.5. The O2 eliminators that RCIII and other units use work totally different.

I read most of this threadthen talked to Steve at Nightrider....told him my setup(07 FXDBI with SEII slipons,Stage One air cleaner and V&V Fuel Pac.)...Steve told me that,since the IEDs didnt affect the AFR at WOT,they work well with the Fuel Pac...ordered my 02 IEDs and should have them by next weekend...thought about going the DIY route but didnt want to alter the stock sensor wires while the bike is under warranty...I will perform my own battery of tests and post resultsasap...BTW,Steveseemed to beone helluva nice guy...ya think its because I gave him $70?...NAH!!!

How many of you well remove the o2 sensor, before taking you bike into the dealer for any work, even oil changes, because of the warranty? Steve told me that they shouldn't be seen once installed. I'm going to order mine as soon as I get done with this post. My bike is on order, and should be in next weekend, I hope. Its a 08 ultra.

Talking about IR (infrared thermometers), I picked one up at Harbor Freight to tune my nitro engine. It was about 35 or 40 bucks but it is accurate. Some IR's are far from accurate as I've found out by testing with other racers temp guns. The best way to find out if your gun is working accurately is to do two test runs. Here's how. First fill a glass with cold water and ice. Get as much ice in as possible. After it has a chance to get to temp check it with the gun. It should read pretty close to 32 degrees F. Next for the high temp, fill a tall pot with water and toss it on the stove. Fire it up until it has a rumbling boil and take a measurement. This should be at or near 220 degrees F. Try to make sure you don't get a false readiing on the side of the pot. Of course this will only give you a few temps to check but at least you will know if your gun is close.

Screwed up one thing The hot temp should be at 212 degrees F. Sorry , Brain is to full of god knows what?

I don't quite get what you are trying to do with "eliminators". Are you running a Power Commander and teh IED's? If you are I think there is some redundancy going on there and that is why you aren't experiencing what you are expecting. In addition I don't think 205 or 207 degrees is bad so I am confused...[sm=dontgetit.gif]

Tick Tock

I'm trying to get a little better gas mileage than I was getting with my PCIII. I reinstalled the stock air filter and disconnected the PCIII but I left the O2 eliminators installed. I started following this thread and decided to give the O2 IED a try.
With the PCIII I was getting about 37 MPG and without the PCIII I'm getting right at 40 MPG.

elpoman wrote:
Steve told me that they shouldn't be seen once installed.

I don't think thats true. There's no place to hide the front O2 IED. At least not on my bike.

If I were taking the bike in under warranty,I would definately remove them...the "STEALER" will document anything that may be to their advantage...JMPO...YMMV...:>)

Gundog......

Are you talking about the LC1's or the 02 IED's? From what I've saw on the site, the 02's are basically the same wire that has a resister in it. I'd think you'd have to look really close to tell the difference. Plugs in the same and to the samepoint as stock.

Now the LC1's... I can see that. Just wondering if we're both talking about the same thing?

If you watch his video on the installation of the LC1's, right at the beginning, he shows where and how to disconnect the 02 wires on a RKfor the front pipe both at the 02 sensor and where you unplug it at the stock connection 8-10" away. Just don't take out the 02 sensor. Same with the back.

If it's only the 02 IED's your doing, stop right there...that's all you have to do.

It would make sense that the AFR would fail safe to 12.5 in the advent of an 02 sensor going south.( or not having 1 at all) Better to flood the cylinder with gas and lots of black smoke rather than lean and cooking the top of your heads and piston out.

Anybody that has them in now...does this sound about right? Or am I looking at this sideways?

Heywood:

If your installing the LC1's WBO2's you follow the O2 wire back from the sensor about 8 to 10 inches and you will come to the connection joint. The joint is to make it possible to remove the O2 sensor without wrecking the wires. If your installing the LC1 or the IED you disconnect the connection.

The IED simply goes in between. You plug the male IED end into the female O2 end and at the other end you connect the wire going to the ECU the same way. IED installation is done.

If your installing the LC1 you diconnect the wire and remove the Narrow band stock O2 sensor. Now you can install the new LC1 Wide Band sensor in the exhaust. Steve provides an extra wire that has the proper connector to attach it to the O2 wire that runs to the ECU. The wires coming out of the LC1 go underneath the frame and click into the LC1 connector.

Normally if you disconnect an O2 sensor your AFR defaults to like 12.5 . However the O2 eliminator that comes with the PCIII works a little differently. I don't know what the AFR would do with the connector on but no PCIII.

KnownMan that is an excellent idea on how to check the accuracy of your unit.

I've been following this subject since the beginning and I'm pretty convinced IEDs are the way to go. I just bought my first Harley (08 Electraglide Classic:D) and will hopefully be picking it up in a couple of weeks. (I'm in Massachusetts, so it's still crummy weather) I know a couple of friends with Ultras that complain about the heat and I was pretty concerned until I started reading this thread. Thanks for all the great info. As a new HD owner, is there anything else I should consider? I have to say, I'm a little worried about tinkering too much with a brand new toy that i just sank 19 large into. For short money, it looks like I can decrease the heat problem and install them right off the bat and get better performance too. Thanks again for all the information and I'll be keeping a close eye on the proceedings here (until the weather breaks anyway;)) Joe

Thanks Cruiser...So I am looking at it the right way... It's just the IED's...I was just wondering what Gundog was saying. When I read it, it sounded like he was talking about the LC1's.

Gundog
I don't think thats true. There's no place to hide the front O2 IED. At least not on my bike.

Heywood
If you watch his video on the installation of the LC1's, right at the beginning, he shows where and how to disconnect the 02 wires on a RKfor the front pipe both at the 02 sensor and where you unplug it at the stock connection 8-10" away. Just don't take out the 02 sensor. Same with the back.

If it's only the 02 IED's your doing, stop right there...that's all you have to do.


The video was a great help..Even though I'm not putting in the LC1's, it showed me the part I needed.

MotorMedic..
Congrates on you first HD and welcome to the form. Your going to love it..There's a million things you can do. These forms are a great place to learn from the mistakes of others and to find things that appeal to you. Tryyour scooterout for a bit... you might be as happy with it stock. Wealth of information here and the other sites. Some good...some negative....You're your own best filter on things you'll read. Some have a difference of opinion...but that's what it is...an opinion.

You've got the smiley thing down so that's a good start. A lot of people take things that are written the wrong way because they can't tell how the person on the other end is joking or serious.

Good place to start is the touring section..Introduce yourself and explain what you have planned for you bike. You could even take your post from above and put it there. Lots of traffic there and in the general section.

Heywood

I'm talking about the O2 IEDs. The front O2 sensor connector plugs into a connector that goes to the ECM and is hidden neatly behind a plastic cover on top of the voltage regulator. When you put the O2 IED in line, you now have two connectors out side the cover with no place to hide.




http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/321/321352/folders/246564/2284394IMG0302(Small).JPG


http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/321/321352/folders/246564/2284395IMG0300(Small).JPG

Gundog I know what your saying. My former Wide Glide was the same way. The wire ran behind that plastic thing above the rectifier and the couplings were hidden in there. Some how your going to have to get creative. Maybe use the plastic tubing that car dealers use around electrical connections.

One thing I did was to bend the wire of the IED to come back around. You can bend the wire just above the plugs that is uncovered without hurting anything. This way you come across the plastic thing and bend the wire to come back the other way. Then fold the original wire to meet it and hopefully it will all fit behind the plastic cover.

If your not sure what I'm talking about, better not to bend anything. But Steve says don't bend the middle where it is shrink wrapped. For under there is the electronics. Bending the exposed wire between the coupling and the shrink wrap is just wire and can be bent with no serious problems.

I just installed a set of these on my 2008 SG. Took about 5 minutes - including the beer. Bike fired right up , sounds great, settled into an idle
Can't ride - 15 degrees and snow covered roads outside
Let you all know how my incredibly accurate butt dyno reads out after I've ridden the thing around a little. Sitting in the garage it felt like 3.5 additional HP and 5.1 ft/lbs torque at 3550 RPM. Like I said - my butt is the benchmark that most matters to me!!

Smokin:

Thanks, thats the best laugh I have had all day. Great Post.

Cruiser85257: At your suggestion, I removed the Screamin' Eagle A/C and installed the stock A/C. With the IED's still installed I rode the same route as the previous two tests.

My seat-of-the-pantsimpression is that the bike runs OK with the stock A/C and the street legal SE slip-ons, but it is not as responsive as it was with the SEA/C. It accelerates OK, but not quite as strong as with the SE A/C. Part of my impression may be that I no longer can hear the intake sucking with the stock A/Clike I did with the SE A/C.

Anyway, so that people do not have to go back to my previous post, I am posting the temperature results for all three tests below. All the tests were performed on my 2007 Road King Classic without the windshield installed. I rodethe same13 mile loop each time. I tried my best to ride the same on each test, but there were some variations due to traffic conditions. The ambient temperatures were within 2 degrees F for all the runs (76-78) degrees.

Test 1 is with the SE A/C, SE slip-ons and without the IED's
Test 2 is with the SE A/C, SE slip-ons and with the IED's
Test 3 is with the stock A/C and with the IED's

A.Stopping after a 55mph ride with occasional brisk acceleration-
Test 1Front Cyl 310-315 degrees, Rear Cyl 330-337 degrees
Test 2 285-290310-322
Test 3257-265 285-293

B. Stopping at a traffic light, riding one more block and checking temps-
Test 1Front Cyl 325-330 degrees, Rear Cyl 345-355
Test 2 298-310320-328
Test 3 280-287 300-308

C. Stopping at the security gate in my community, riding 1/2 mile home at 25-30mph
Test 1Front Cyl 350-355 degrees, Rear Cyl 380-385 degrees
Test 2 330-340 355-365
Test 3 305-315330-338

My conclusion is, that without any question whatsoever, installing the Nightrider IED's helped my engine run cooler. It alsoconfirms that the addition of a freer flowing air cleaner makes a bike run hotter. It isunderstood that hotter running is mainly the result of a leaner mixture.

For the time being, I am going to leave my stock air cleaner on. However,I am going to do some further investigation before I decide whether to put back the SE A/C.

It is my understanding that the O2 sensors onlyimpact the ECM at thrott

Mr. Clean:

Outstanding test results, and very nicely compiled.

I think if you go back through the thread you'll find a great explaination of the stage one download by Franks. According to what he says it will bring the afr down by altering the volume. So your basically correct in your assumption.

I just acquired a SERT off of Ebay. Won't have it till next week. But I will start messing with that and the O2 IED to see what improvements I can gain. This is where I am going to need all the help I can get with the Race Tuner. It's an older model, but I got the latest software here V477. I guess the first step will be to decide on a basemap. With the K&N RK3909 air kit, and Rusj Mufflers with 2 inch exhaust. I'm looking at Map 78 or 100. recomendations are most welcome.

I'm new to this forum, and I still do not know all of the ins and outs, of it yet. I'm very interested in this posting, because I'm getting my first Harley, 08 Ultra in a few weeks, and have ordered the Nightrider 02 IED's, and want to see what every one is saying about them, so I'm posting this to add the e-mail to replies. I hope this works. If I need to do something else, to get email alerts, could someone let me know.

+1

Got my attention....

still cold out , so more input will help me decide!

Hey guys, just wanted to thank all of you for the great details.Mr. Clean, my fingers were sore just looking at your write up. This is good stuff! Also, you may want to look at the article in this months American Iron about the S&S bolt on Air Cleaner gaining 10hp. It states that the ECM will self adjust to AC or pipe changes, returning the A/F mixture back to the factory setting of 14.7:1, without a download.

Thanks Again!

Build your own IEDs' for about $1.00 at radioshack. Do some reverse engineering and your done. Look up "devide by calculator" on the net. Electronic guys know what I'm sayn.

snuffer: Thanks, I read the article in AIM. However, based on my personal experience, I do not agree withthe part about the A/F returning back to 14.7.

I purchasedmy used '07 Road King Classic from a H-D dealer. The dealer was not the original selling dealer, had no service history on it, butsaid it was traded in to them on an Street Glide. It had the Screamin' Eagle Stage 1 air cleaner kit on it andstock pipes.The dealer thought that the original owner may have had aftermarket pipes on it and replaced them with the stock pipes beforetrading it. I thought that perhaps the original owner might have had the ECM recalibrated. Before signing the final papers, I had the dealer put it on their computer and they said the ECM has the original factory fuel mapping.

I thought that it might be running lean with the SE A/C, so I had it dynoed. In closed loop mode the A/F was 15.1. Even though the O2 sensors were connected the A/F was still leaner than 14.7. That is why I disagree withthe AIMstatement.

If I had known thenwhat I now know about the lean running issue, I would have insisted that the dealer either do the Stage I download or install a stock air cleaner before I paid for the bike.

ORIGINAL: Bill Hilly

Build your own IEDs' for about $1.00 at radioshack. Do some reverse engineering and your done. Look up "devide by calculator" on the net. Electronic guys know what I'm sayn.

Could you post how to do it in the DIY thread. Thanks...Trucky911

Thanks Gundog......my 02 doesn't have the 02 sensors. Cool picks. Now I know what you were getting at.

ORIGINAL: Mr. Clean
It is my understanding that the O2 sensors onlyÂ*impact the ECM at throttle settings below about 40% throttle (closed loop) which is where most of us ride when cruising around or riding at steady legal speeds on the highway. With throttle settings above 40% (open loop) the O2 sensors have noÂ*impact on the ECM, but the ECM richens the mixture according to how it is programmed.Â* BasicallyÂ*most of usÂ*only run in open loop when accelerating hard or riding at high speeds.Â* Please correct me if I am wrong on this.

This is correct. But rather than throttle position, it's load. So at low load, i.e. light throttle and cruising, you're in closed loop. I know... same difference. :D

I believe thatÂ*the Nightrider IED's are an excellent mod at a minimal cost for a stock bike.

I agree.

2. Now let'sÂ*take aÂ*stock bikeÂ*and add a better breathing air cleaner.Â* The bike is now leaner due to more air in.Â* Let's say the A/F ratio in closed loop is now 15.2 (Mine was actually 15.1 as measured on a dyno).

It's possible that with the stage 1 mods, you've upped your VE (actual, not what's stored in the map) enough that the closed loop is out of it's range for correction. Of course, the dyno sniffer could just be reading leaner than the stock sensors or the stock sensors are reading richer. The only way I can think of to test this is to get your bike dynoed without the stage 1 mod and see what the AFR is.

A.Â*Â*Â*Â* Adding just the Nightrider IED's would probably accomplish bringing the A/F in closed loop back to the stock 14.7 which isÂ*still lean.Â* YouÂ*might have gainedÂ*a small amount ofÂ*performance by adding the better breathing air cleanerÂ*but your bike would still be running just as lean as a stock bike.

Assuming it is indeed out of the closed loop's correction range, this makes sense, although the open loop areas would be even leaner than stock.

B.Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Alternatively, you follow the recommendation of the MOCO and have a Stage I download installed.Â* Supposedly the Stage I download will return the closed loop A/F ratio back to EPA legal 14.7.Â* If you now install the Nightrider IED's, I believe that the A/F ratio will be 14.2 in closed loop mode.Â* This would definitely help withÂ*the lean running and high temperature issues.Â* The Nightrider IED's would be a great addition to Stage I mods and a Stage I download.

You'd also get the open loop areas back to stock AFR (or close to it) due to the download. So basically you'd have close to the same AFRs as a stock bike with the IEDs.

I know that many people say that the Stage I download is a waste of money and that it only increases the rev limit to 6200RPM.Â* However, I believe that the Stage I download does more than that.Â* Somehow the mixture is enrichened – or the bike would be running so lean as to cause engine damage.

Agreed. It adds fuel to match up with the increased air flow. More air plus more fuel means more power.

Unless I am totally wrong in my understanding, I think that a Stage 1 download on a bike with the Stage I mods plus the Nightrider IED’s, might help more than just adding the IED’s without the download.

Again, I agree.

If someone out there really KNOWS more about this, please feel free to comment.

Can't say I know more than anyone else, but you're thinking is spot on IMHO.

I have a 08 Ultra with Stage 1 download,SE air cleaner,V&H Fuel Pak,True Duals w/0vals.The bike runs well,not hot like it did when I picked her up new.I will be installing a set of the Nightrider IEDs later this week.I want to see if the help in the Az summer heat.I fugure it won't hurt for $69.Thanks to all that helped research this issue.Regards,Tom ps:Do the download for the SE Air Cleaner.A good dealer will not charge labor for the flash,it takes less than 5minutes.

I'm not up on the V&H's fuel pack but, wouldn't the IED's basically doing the same job as the fuel pack??

Would one cancel out the other?


quote:

B. Alternatively, you follow the recommendation of the MOCO and have a Stage I download installed. Supposedly the Stage I download will return the closed loop A/F ratio back to EPA legal 14.7. If you now install the Nightrider IED's, I believe that the A/F ratio will be 14.2 in closed loop mode. This would definitely help withthe lean running and high temperature issues. The Nightrider IED's would be a great addition to Stage I mods and a Stage I download.


You'd also get the open loop areas back to stock AFR (or close to it) due to the download. So basically you'd have close to the same AFRs as a stock bike with the IEDs.


I think he's right. If you go with the stage 1 w/o the download, it would make sense that the bike would lean out to 15.1. The download changes the VE and/or timing to bring it back to 14.7. So putting the IED's in tricks the ECM into thinking that it's still at, say 15.2 and dumps more fuel to it till the 02 sensor tell it it's at 14.7 when infact it really is at 14.2.

So basically you'd have close to the same AFRs as a stock bike with the IEDs.


In the mind of the ECM. It doesn't know about the IED's. It still thinks it's got a direct link to the sensors.

ToBeFrank:

Thanks for the reply. You pretty much confirmed my thinking. I think I will keep the stock A/C and the IED'sfor now . When I get a chance, I will remove the IED's, get the Stage I download. Then I will reinstall the SE A/C and the IED's.

For the riding I do, I do not plan on any additional mods, so I am pretty sure that route will work satisfactorily for me. I see no reason to spend the money for another dyno run with the stock A/C just to prove a point.

Mr Clean great experiment. Speaking of the stock airbox. Too cold here for me to ride. I have a '07 FLHX with the IED's. Can't wait to try them out. I emailed Nightrider and was told that they recommend using the IED's with the stock airbox with a k&n airfilter element. Joe Minton wrote an article in American Rider a few months ago saying that the stock airbox makes more tourqe in the midrange vs the s/e a/c and that the s/e a/c makes more top end hp. I have the stock airbox with a k&n filter with stage 1 ecm download. I will see come this spring.

You guys are getting there. I have been running the 2 LC1's on my RG for quite a while. Temps are way down, 340 to 210. Here in the mountains at 10000 ft we are lean to say the least. They work for me. before getting the LC1 conversion, I figured out the resistor values nnede to get about 14.1:1 AFR ( 12K and 25K). They cooled the head temp down by 40 degrees. Great work guys. Your gonna like like it.

Rider57,

The Nightrider O2 IEDs uses 20k OHM and 10K OHM resistors. 25k and 12k is pretty close. Also what temps are you refering to?

Can any body tell me how long the ied's are from plug end to plug end? Thanks.

Approx 6 inches end to end

fastbagger: What is the part # for the K&N filter you are using in the stock airbox?

Here it is

http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=HD-1499

Exhaust temps at the head or about 1 to 2 inches down the tube. I have a background in electronics and started with a decade resistor box to experiment with the idea that the output of the O2 sensors are voltage and knowing the input range to them does not leave much in the way of analog signals (voltage) to play with. The original values I used gave me the best results but I found that they also provides too much load for the 0 to 1 volt range. The 25K and 12K values I used first made the AFR too rich. Next I tried values of 22K and 12K. This gave me the AFR of 13.7 and that is where the current value is staying until later today. This is my second bike I am "playing " with. The RG has the LC1 kits installed and programmed with LogWorks. I runs perect for me and my habits. At idle the AFR is 13.0:1. Off idel to 20% the AFR is 13.5:1 and above 20%TP it is 13.7:1.
I did reprogram just lastnight for the above values.
Keep in mind as I am sure most of you do, every engine is different. My altitude is also at 4800 ft which makes a difference.
I about 2 hours I will have tested the 20K and 10K values and see what that does at this elevation.

Fastbagger: Thanks for the information. The K&N filter is a bit pricy for just an air filter. Since I already have the SE a/c,I think I will install it again when I get the Stage I download.

Rider57: The temps were measuredon the heads at the base of the sparkplugs and at each headbolt. Due to the fact that an infrared thermometer can give erroneous readings if the beam is pointed at shiny objects, I also took the temps between the sparkplug and each headbolt.

Looking forward to hearing your results with the 20K and 10K resistors.

Rider57 -
I am also into electronics (my job in the automotive prototype testing) and you ar