RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 3/9/2008 3:03:56 PM
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TrackerTracker
Posts: 41
Joined: 2/22/2008
From: Port Orange, FL
Status: offline
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MNPGRider. I agree. Some can argue that we don't need big brother
to protect us ( an I for one don't like a lot of regulations) but the MSF
gives people a better chance at being safe ( and maybe keeping big brother off our backs with even more regulations).
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 3/9/2008 3:06:59 PM
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powaypete
Posts: 217
Joined: 1/30/2008
From: San Diego (Poway), CA
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I drive 18 wheels locally for a living, sometimes I think people need a refresher course in driving/riding. Maybe that should be a requirement, ride with a cop during the evening hours from 5PM to about 11PM.
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David P.
Riding Back Roads
2003 Heritage with Carb. (Not EFI)
Take care of your stuff and it will take care of you !!
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 3/10/2008 4:13:14 AM
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galtjunk
Posts: 219
Joined: 11/16/2007
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The Moron Vehicle Division in New Mexico believes that you must have a drivers license in order to register a vehicle. There is no such law on the books. If there was then no company such as Sears or your local plumbing company would be able to own vehicles. I have a friend who is legally blind. He purchased a car and an insurance policy to cover anyone who drove it. We had a hell of a time convincing them that the had to register it.
I don't think you should have to be licensed to purchase any vehicle but you should be required to be licensed in order to drive it.
Form a corporation. See if that will get you around the licensing requirement.
How can your local HD dealership or rental agency purchase and register a motorcycle for rental?
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Evolution fails when stupidity is no longer fatal.
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 3/10/2008 5:22:39 AM
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skootchnc
Posts: 381
Joined: 1/30/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Capt.Bob
Everyone here makes some good points but here is one to consider also. This is why I think the whole thing is a joke. There is a licensed MSF course given in my area that uses 125cc bikes to give the course on. If you take the course and pass you get the M endorsement. I maintain that being tested on a 125cc scooter should not quailify you for the endorsement. I know people that have taken this course and then jumped right on bigger Harleys and such. A 125cc scooter is not a motorcycle.
Although i had been riding many years, and already HAD my endorsment... I took the MSF class, just to see what it was about (given I had been recommending it for years) I had a blast.... I also learned to correct several bad habits that I had picked up over the years.
BUT.... after we had taken the test, and gotten our credientials... the instructors made it VERY CLEAR.... he said
"you have now learned the BASIC skills, you're going to have to master, before you begin to ride on the street... most of you are NOT ready to ride on the street, and you shouldn't try. Go find a parking lot... and practice"
I've taken the ERC since, and will repeat again next week.... just because I want to....
frank
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 3/10/2008 4:08:56 PM
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hdwd2000
Posts: 644
Joined: 10/19/2007
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Its all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. It will never change.
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2006 Electra Glide Classic
2000 Wide Glide 95"
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 3/10/2008 6:32:09 PM
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chiabate
Posts: 3462
Joined: 10/26/2006
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After just reading the first page of this, I see WAY TOO MUCH misreading of this regulation. It states that a PURCHASER not OPERATOR must have the valid endorsement. I just came from the state capitol a couple days ago fighting off something similar here. I, first and foremost, am a staunch advocate of rider training and ensuring that the OPERATOR is properly licensed. However, from the business side, many people bought his-n-her Vespas as anniversary gifts for people other than themselves. Many parents bought for kids going to college and asked about rider training for them. I once had an investor out of NYC buy one as a business gift for Sam Zell (a PX is 151cc, legally a class M) Everybody around here knows of Sam and his "Zell's Angels" Rolex Riders, but the law would have made the purchase illegal! The fact that it singles out motorcycles is the most troubling. What if Trucking company executives were required to have CDL's to buy trucks for their fleet? Again, enforce the OPERATOR aspect of existing laws, maybe even increase penalties. But the requirement of a PURCHASER is ludicrous.
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Doing my part to preserve Freedom of the Road, are you?
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 3/23/2008 7:51:13 AM
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wydopn231
Posts: 702
Joined: 4/10/2007
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You want away around the law just get real tanned and speak spic.then you dont have to go by the law.Maybe we can convert the spics from f____ up trucks and low riders to bikes then they will not make as many laws against us.
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 3/23/2008 11:55:26 AM
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big cahuna
Posts: 363
Joined: 3/26/2007
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anyone against the safty course can look in the video section at the guy on the new harley that drives 50feet , the runs into a parked car. Its scary that in new jersey you can get a permit,and your licence in a weekend, with no prior riding experience. Then go to a bike dealer and buy the fastest , most powerful bike on the road. does that make sense?
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 3/24/2008 8:26:25 AM
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chiabate
Posts: 3462
Joined: 10/26/2006
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Graduated licensing is another valid concept, but yet another thing you don't want the government's sticky fingers in your pockets on. In theory, someone first having to master a sub-125, then a sub-500, then a sub-1000 before anyone can operate a hyabusa or a heavyweight touring bike would be a good idea, but contact a european or south american and find out what kind of hassles they have to endure.
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Doing my part to preserve Freedom of the Road, are you?
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 3/31/2008 7:06:27 PM
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Profman
Posts: 226
Joined: 9/2/2007
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I bought a bike at the age of 18 having never ever ridin one......didn't even know how to get it out of the dealers parking lot. Was excited but scared to death. I do think new riders need a good safety course that could be offerred as part of the sale of the bike, but that old heads should not have to pay for a course just to hit the roads.
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John
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 4/6/2008 6:21:05 AM
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RoadRunR
Posts: 524
Joined: 5/23/2007
From: VA
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Do you guys actually think that state or any other state in this country cares about your safty???????????????????????????????
Hell if they did they would put and end to all the illigals driving and killing people-chit wake up
IT IS ABOUT THE MONEY
$$$$$$$
always will be..
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 4/6/2008 8:22:04 AM
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rfranz1952
Posts: 220
Joined: 3/12/2007
From: Salina, KS
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quote:
ORIGINAL: real7jake
Safety course isn't a bad idea, but $200! Luckily here in PA it's still free. I rode on a permit for 4-5 years before I finally took the test and got my actual license.
After we spent $10K, $20K, $30K on a bike, $200 is to much to learn how to ride it--or even for a refresher? I'll bet most of us spent that much on crappy chrome within the first month!!
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2005 XL 1200 Custom
"THOR" The Sound of Thunder
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 4/6/2008 8:28:34 AM
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rfranz1952
Posts: 220
Joined: 3/12/2007
From: Salina, KS
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quote:
ORIGINAL: conroskie
Big brother lookin out for ya! The overwelming majority of motorcycle deaths are not caused by the rider. There should be a motorcycle awareness course for cages!!!
At least 40% of all motorcycle accidents are single vehicle. Pretty tough to blame that on the "cagers". Many of the remaining 60% are caused by other vehicles invading the motorcycles right of way, but even in those, the motorcycle rider failed to respond with effective countermeasures. Furthermore, not all two vehicle accidents involve "cages", sometimes the other vehicle is another motorcycle.
I think the Florida requirement should be emulated in other States. It is certainly more proactive and preferable to a simple helmet requirement. I would agree that motorcycle awareness for other drivers should also be a part of the program.
Some findings from the Hurt and MAIDS studies. These clearly show that we, as riders, must accept responsibility for ourselves:
Approximately three-fourths of these motorcycle accidents involved collision with another vehicle, which was most usually a passenger automobile. (Hurt)
Riders most frequently collided with the roadway or, most often, the other vehicle. In 60 percent of the accidents studied, the "collision partner" was a passenger car. (MAIDS)
Approximately one-fourth of these motorcycle accidents were single vehicle accidents involving the motorcycle colliding with the roadway or some fixed object in the environment. (Hurt)
The typical motorcycle accident allows the motorcyclist just less than 2 seconds to complete all collision avoidance action. (Hurt)
Vehicle defects related to accident causation are rare and likely to be due to deficient or defective maintenance. (Hurt)
In the single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slideout and fall due to overbraking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering. (Hurt)
Lack of attention to the driving task is a common factor for the motorcyclist in an accident. (Hurt)
Motorcycle riders ...showed significant collision avoidance problems. Most riders would overbrake and skid the rear wheel, and underbrake the front wheel greatly reducing collision avoidance deceleration. The ability to countersteer and swerve was essentially absent. (Hurt)
Human error is still the primary cause of motorcycle crashes. In 37 percent of cases, the primary accident contributing factor was a human error on the part of the motorcyclist. (MAIDS)
Traffic control violations (such as rolling a stop sign or traffic light) were made by the motorcyclists in 8 percent of the crashes. (MAIDS)
The authors noted that in 13 percent of the crashes, the accident-involved riders chose a poor or incorrect collision-avoidance strategy. In a third of the crashes one party or the other "failed to account for visual obstructions and engaged in faulty traffic strategies." (MAIDS)
As in the Hurt Report, which studied motorcycle crashes in America a quarter-century ago, riders did a poor job when they had to stop and/or turn in a moment of panic. In almost three-fourths of the crashes, the rider attempted some pre-impact avoidance maneuver, and about one third of those lost control of the motorcycle as a result. (MAIDS)
Motorcycle riders between the ages of 16 and 24 are significantly overrepresented in accidents; motorcycle riders between the ages of 30 and 50 are significantly underrepresented.
Motorcycle riders with previous recent traffic citations and accidents are overrepresented in the accident data. (Hurt)
Motorcycle riders in these accidents were significantly without motorcycle license, w
< Message edited by rfranz1952 -- 4/6/2008 8:49:13 AM >
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2005 XL 1200 Custom
"THOR" The Sound of Thunder
I LOVE MY SPORTSTER!
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 4/6/2008 12:30:43 PM
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rfranz1952
Posts: 220
Joined: 3/12/2007
From: Salina, KS
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That is true. The Hurt report was done some time ago, and in an urban environment--I beleive in California. There may be some differences if the report was done today, and included a more diverse environment--including rural areas. For example, the Hurt report included almost no animal collisions as a result of it's location. There are also likelymore female riders today, and crotch rockets were just a wet dream back then. I also don't think that motorcycle training was nearly as available.
However, the MAIDS study was just completed--I believe last year--in Europe. The findings of that report have a great deal of consistancy with the Hurt Report findings, even though it was done in an entirely different place and time.
I beleive that if the same type of intensive analysis were done today, many of the main findings would be verified. There would unquestionably be a few differences.
_____________________________
2005 XL 1200 Custom
"THOR" The Sound of Thunder
I LOVE MY SPORTSTER!
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 4/7/2008 1:59:58 PM
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gjb1952
Posts: 437
Joined: 3/15/2008
From: Milwaukee, Wi....Land of the Free
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OK, so I'm reading this post and I see that one guys thinks it's all the young riders that need training. Then I see another post that states middle aged and older new riders need training. Which one of you are going to determine who should get an M permit and who shouldn't? No matter what age you should have a M permit. Most motorcycle accidents are caused by drinking and driving not cages. Take the riders safety coarse. Get an M on your liscence and be done with it. I don't give a sh!t how old someone is.
< Message edited by Yellotang -- 4/8/2008 9:15:09 AM >
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RE: Florida sticks it to bikers again - 4/14/2008 9:47:40 AM
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07yellowglide
Posts: 966
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I have been teaching the MSF course in FLorida since January and have found some interesting thought processes about the students who come in to the classes.............
So far I have not had 1 class that a current rider has not come up to me at the end of class and thanked me and told me he/she has been riding wrong or gotten into bad habits.........did I help them during the weekend become a better rider????? yes............
The younger rider's usually have the crotch rockets already and are there because they can't get their license, but are running the streets on their 600-1000 cc rocket ships..........the MSF course is set up to give them the "tools" to ride correctly and safely.....do I help them become a better rider and safer???? yes.............
I work for the local Harley dealership and the local community college teaching the MSF course, so I am faced with 2 completely different kinds of students..........is it challanging? Not really........I am there to provide the tools to become a safer and better rider....it does not matter who is in the audience...........
Do the students come out with the knowledge they need to be better riders??????/ yes............
How they apply the knowledge is up to them..............you hope they they apply the lessons learned through out their lives.......
I am also the Safety Manager at the Naval base here and the DOD has been fighting this issue for a long time...........Our Personnel require a MSF Course before they can ride a motorcycle..............We still continue to lose a lot of riders each year due to mototrcycle fatalities overall thoughout the DOD...........
I read the reports and their is a common trend though out the reports.............."going to fast and failed to make corner"........"rider slammed into car"......."rider was drinking and departed road".................it goes on and on....................
With that being said....the DOD has now required all riders to complete a refresher course every 3 years.....maybe that will stem the tide.....who knows...............
also in response to the latest stats....all 17 sailors killed this year on motorcycles were riding crotch rockets..........
the DOD is soon certifing a new Sport Bike course thru MSF..............to give them even more training to understand the hazards of these fast machines.............
I think it's great the Florida has tried to close the loophole as it stands right now...........MSF only gives the students the tools.......the student must take them and use them for the program to be effective......
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MSgt USAF Retired 1982-2005 
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