ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96
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ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 3/21/2008 6:32:28 AM
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VTwinJaxFL
Posts: 266
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I installed the thundermax and put the map on for the appropriate setup. I have SE slip-ons and a K&N filter, pretty basic setup. I get pinging when I accelerate hard and the bike is fully warmed up. Has anyone else had this and what did you do to correct this. I was told I need to remove timing in the rpm range where it is pinging. Before I do this, I wanted to better understand what this will do and why. I have also heard that you can fix this by adding more fuel or by adjusting the accelerator pump or whatever the feature is called on the TMAX.
If you have any suggestions, please provide some detail, I am a rookie at the TMAX. I did make one small adjustment to timing and it didn't fix the pinging. All I did was bring the timing down 1 notch on the overall timing section in the 2 to 4 K rpm section.
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2007 FLTRI - ThunderMax EFI AutoTune, SE slip-ons, K&N AC, 76 RWHP/90 TQ
2002 VRSCA - JE Illusions paint, Renegade Sonic Rims, Progressive 440 lowered shocks, Metzler rubber, 110 RWHP
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 3/21/2008 8:01:08 AM
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rbabos
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Sometimes it could be from the wrong map. What map are you using at the moment?
Ron
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 3/21/2008 8:55:02 AM
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kdietz
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Try taking 1 or 2 degrees of timing out of the rear cylinder only....that does it most of the time as long as you're working with the correct map
After that....take more out of the front cylinder in the problem range and maybe add a little fuel
Also, give it time to tune....most say 300-500 miles but I think it's more like 1000-1500 in my experience
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 3/21/2008 10:13:27 AM
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VTwinJaxFL
Posts: 266
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I am using the correct map, called Zippers to verify this back in November when I installed it. I've put about 3,000 miles on it since it was installed. I did talk to zippers via email and they did not sound like they wanted to help me out on this. I retarded the timing just one position down across the rpm range using the screen that changes it across the board. I will go back into the software and see if I can change it on the rear cylinder only.
_____________________________
2007 FLTRI - ThunderMax EFI AutoTune, SE slip-ons, K&N AC, 76 RWHP/90 TQ
2002 VRSCA - JE Illusions paint, Renegade Sonic Rims, Progressive 440 lowered shocks, Metzler rubber, 110 RWHP
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 3/21/2008 2:20:10 PM
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VTwinJaxFL
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It has been pinging since the beginning. I just try not to get on it to much to cause it to ping and I don't ride the bike that much, just on the weekends. I always use Shell 93 octane fuel.
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2007 FLTRI - ThunderMax EFI AutoTune, SE slip-ons, K&N AC, 76 RWHP/90 TQ
2002 VRSCA - JE Illusions paint, Renegade Sonic Rims, Progressive 440 lowered shocks, Metzler rubber, 110 RWHP
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 3/22/2008 2:53:59 AM
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Koppster
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Here are some interesting excerpts from page 105 of the TMax manual. They don't speak directly to a problem you have had from the beginning but they do give you some things to think about. Pretty basic stuff:
Do you have the best map for your configuration? You can check that by ensuring you have the latest software update and reviewing all possible choices.
Have you checked for exhaust leaks? Are your plugs good?
Already asked about gas, but what about altitude? Where are you riding?
Finally, I'd call Zippers vs email, I've never had a problem with support via telephone (I've called them 3X and recieved patient support each time. Look at page 102, there is a caution about independent adjustment of the rear cylinder timing without dyno data.
Rick
PS: Look at pages 102-104 as well.
Timing Troubleshooting: Here are a few common scenarios that have been seen several times by Product Support. The first thing you need to do before you adjust the base map is to verify you have selected the correct map. Selecting a map with incorrect parameters is usually the source for spark knock problems. Take the time to verify the best possible base map has been selected for your application. 1.) If you have not experienced any spark knock or detonation problems, but pinging develops after your last fuel stop, do you need to adjust your timing? As long as spark knock has not been experienced before, continue operation of the motorcycle, and purchase fuel from a different source before making any changes to your map. It is common for gasoline to be blended differently in different regions of the country. Touring riders will experience this much more so than riders that stay in one region of the country. 2.) If the gasoline has not made a difference in the operation of the motorcycle, check that your intake & exhaust seals are not leaking, your AutoTune module is turned on, as well as reading the spark plugs. If excessive oil is found on the plugs, you may have a head gasket leak. A head gasket leak can cause detonation by depleting the octane rating of the fuel, allowing a build up of gasoline in the combustion chamber, and igniting the rich mixture when the temperature reaches a high enough level to pre-ignite.
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 3/22/2008 5:25:50 AM
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VTwinJaxFL
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Thanks for the information, that is all good stuff. I am riding at sea level, in Jacksonville FL. I have checked the plugs and they looked fine to me, no sign of oil and they are tan colored, which is what I was told is good. I hope I wouldn't have an exhaust leak, these are the stock head pipes, but I will check to make sure they are tight, is there a good way to check to make sure there is no exhaust leakage?
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2007 FLTRI - ThunderMax EFI AutoTune, SE slip-ons, K&N AC, 76 RWHP/90 TQ
2002 VRSCA - JE Illusions paint, Renegade Sonic Rims, Progressive 440 lowered shocks, Metzler rubber, 110 RWHP
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 3/22/2008 5:34:54 AM
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VTwinJaxFL
Posts: 266
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By the way, the map that I am using is ItemId 392 or map name HDTSSTVDUG050107.slk, that is the base map that I started with. It was recommended by Zippers and is for the following.
Twin Cam 96 ci, Stock throttle body, Stock Cylinders, Stock Pistons, Stock Cam, Stock HD FL Head Pipe, Hi-Flow filter 2.75" deep (I have the K&N system), KW HP+ Mufflers ( I have SE slip-ons) witha date of 05/01/2007, which was the latest date at the time of installation.
I called them because they did not list a SE slip-on muffler, which I thought was strange, apparently they don't list that one but they said the Krome Werks muffler was equivalent to that muffler.
So, I feel that I can't really find a better map than this one. I also find it strange that no one else has had pinging under heavy throttle, am I the only one that gets on this thing? It doesn't ping in normal easy use, just when I really give it hell.
_____________________________
2007 FLTRI - ThunderMax EFI AutoTune, SE slip-ons, K&N AC, 76 RWHP/90 TQ
2002 VRSCA - JE Illusions paint, Renegade Sonic Rims, Progressive 440 lowered shocks, Metzler rubber, 110 RWHP
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 3/22/2008 6:27:31 AM
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VTwinJaxFL
Posts: 266
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I just decreased the timing 1 more degree to see how that does. I did this in the timing vs. Engine speed category, it does a global movement in each of the timing windows for engine vs. TPS, I did this in the 2000 to 5000 rpm range and will see how that works. Let me run this by you, this is how I did this.
1. Link the computer to the bike, turn the ignition and run switch on.
2. Press the link button and it links and stays green.
3. Read the Module map from the bike and saved it with todays date at the end of the map name.
4. Made the adjustment to the map and save it on the computer.
5. Pressed the write map to the module setting and let the map transmit to the module.
6. Then I initialized it by doing the 30 second ignition/run switch on then off 3 times.
7. I will now start the bike and let it warm up completely before riding.
Is this the correct method?
_____________________________
2007 FLTRI - ThunderMax EFI AutoTune, SE slip-ons, K&N AC, 76 RWHP/90 TQ
2002 VRSCA - JE Illusions paint, Renegade Sonic Rims, Progressive 440 lowered shocks, Metzler rubber, 110 RWHP
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 3/22/2008 6:32:11 AM
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rredneckn
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Try taking another degree or two in the rpm page.Whats your oil temp? Cool your oil down could help also.Amsoil will drop it 10 to 15 degrees.
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 3/22/2008 6:47:26 AM
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VTwinJaxFL
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I am running Amsoil oil and filter, oil temp is around 225 generally, in rare situations it will go higher, but that is not typical, like Biketoberfest traffic jam I saw 250 or so, but on a typical day at 70 to 80 degrees I will see 220 to 225 on the highway, I will be leaving shortly so I will see what it is running. I am using the HD oil temp dip stick to measure temps.
_____________________________
2007 FLTRI - ThunderMax EFI AutoTune, SE slip-ons, K&N AC, 76 RWHP/90 TQ
2002 VRSCA - JE Illusions paint, Renegade Sonic Rims, Progressive 440 lowered shocks, Metzler rubber, 110 RWHP
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 3/22/2008 8:05:58 AM
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rbabos
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From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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quote:
ORIGINAL: VTwinJaxFL
I just decreased the timing 1 more degree to see how that does. I did this in the timing vs. Engine speed category, it does a global movement in each of the timing windows for engine vs. TPS, I did this in the 2000 to 5000 rpm range and will see how that works. Let me run this by you, this is how I did this.
1. Link the computer to the bike, turn the ignition and run switch on.
2. Press the link button and it links and stays green.
3. Read the Module map from the bike and saved it with todays date at the end of the map name.
4. Made the adjustment to the map and save it on the computer.
5. Pressed the write map to the module setting and let the map transmit to the module.
6. Then I initialized it by doing the 30 second ignition/run switch on then off 3 times.
7. I will now start the bike and let it warm up completely before riding.
Is this the correct method?
Personally anything less than 2 degrees change at a time is not worth it, as one does very little change. Could be wrong on this , but reinitializing would not be neccessary because you kept the learned offset in the map anyway. If you reinitialize it's usually done if offsets are cleared first, or new map and settings are loaded. Reinitializing without clearing the learned offsets first may create some problems in the idle department. I could be wrong but it would seem that if you read the map, make changes, and then write the map and settings to module is all you need to do in this case.
Ron
< Message edited by rbabos -- 3/22/2008 6:25:01 PM >
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 3/22/2008 3:06:23 PM
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VTwinJaxFL
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I decreased the timing one more degree and so far so good. When you move the timing down one position is that one degree? I have now moved it down 2 positions and it did not ping today, but it was cool out today, go we will see how it works when it is 90 degrees outside, it was only 70 max today
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2007 FLTRI - ThunderMax EFI AutoTune, SE slip-ons, K&N AC, 76 RWHP/90 TQ
2002 VRSCA - JE Illusions paint, Renegade Sonic Rims, Progressive 440 lowered shocks, Metzler rubber, 110 RWHP
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 3/22/2008 6:14:52 PM
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rbabos
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I believe it's one degree per block. It should ping less in hot weather due to less dense air. This in effect drops the compression somewhat. However if the engine gets really hot as in traffic it may still ping because cylinder temps will be higher. I guess that will be the acid test for your timing settings as you may need to drop some timing again. Sounds like you've got a handle on it .
Ron
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 4/8/2008 3:49:53 PM
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VTwinJaxFL
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So far in this cool temperature in north Florida, 75 to 80 have been the highs lately, I haven't heard any pinging. I will have to see what it does once the mercury climbs up over 90.
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2007 FLTRI - ThunderMax EFI AutoTune, SE slip-ons, K&N AC, 76 RWHP/90 TQ
2002 VRSCA - JE Illusions paint, Renegade Sonic Rims, Progressive 440 lowered shocks, Metzler rubber, 110 RWHP
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 4/8/2008 3:57:51 PM
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rbabos
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I wish I could see 75-80 degrees. Still cool here but getting better. Been out twice with mine to test the Tmax. So far, no reason to link up and twist it's ass.
Ron
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 4/8/2008 6:17:05 PM
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notorious
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VT, I'm running the same map and had simuliar pinging when it was warm outside, however I noticed I twist the gas under RPM's when experiencing ping the most. I decreased the timing in 2250 to 2800 RPM range and cleared it right up. I don't recall how many points though, but it ended being more than a few. The map is flat now and I did loose some mpg and it is a very strong runner for what it is.
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 4/29/2008 1:35:38 PM
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VTwinJaxFL
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I took the bike out on a 200 mile trip this weekend and the pinging is not gone. I guess I need to take some more timing out of this thing. I had pinging when I had powercommander on this POS before as well, I figured the TMAX would take care of that, but I guess it doesn't.
_____________________________
2007 FLTRI - ThunderMax EFI AutoTune, SE slip-ons, K&N AC, 76 RWHP/90 TQ
2002 VRSCA - JE Illusions paint, Renegade Sonic Rims, Progressive 440 lowered shocks, Metzler rubber, 110 RWHP
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 4/29/2008 6:22:59 PM
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rbabos
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Your original post mentioned it pings when you get on it hard . The accel fuel may be low in module basic settings. A lean condition the instant you crack the throttle will make it ping, but will stop once the rpms pick up. Not sure if this is your situation or not. Check this option out when you feel that you've gone far enough with the timing decrease. To make it worth while go 4 points higher to find out. You can always remove one or two later to fine tune it if it works. You can only go so far with timing and it will be a dog in both power and economy.
Ron
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 4/30/2008 5:38:14 AM
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VTwinJaxFL
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Thanks for the suggestion, I have talked to someone about this before, sounds like it may help out, cause that is how it works. It starts off pinging and then as more fuel comes in, it diminishes some. I think bumping down the timing just a tad more and bumping this up may work.
On another note, anyone installed the K&N filter and had an issue with the rubber velocity stack staying in position? Seems like it wants to not stay attached properly, I finally just took it off, I don't think it should affect it that much, it is a terrible design, it should be made of metal and not rubber.
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2007 FLTRI - ThunderMax EFI AutoTune, SE slip-ons, K&N AC, 76 RWHP/90 TQ
2002 VRSCA - JE Illusions paint, Renegade Sonic Rims, Progressive 440 lowered shocks, Metzler rubber, 110 RWHP
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 4/30/2008 9:30:33 AM
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FXWGG
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I had pinging in my 07 with almost identical mods. I was running the same map as you but last Saturday I added more Accel fuel. From 10 to 12. I am waiting on time to try it out. I hope this works and will keep you posted.
Bobby
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2007 Ultra Classic
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1981 FXWG
heads ported by Branch Flowmetrics
Andrews B Grind
S&S Super E
solid lifters and 2" drags cut off short...real short
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 4/30/2008 3:52:55 PM
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VTwinJaxFL
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Please do let me know it goes with the Accel Fuel. I have to go out of town this weekend and I won't have time to play around with it, but I am thinking that might do the trick.
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2007 FLTRI - ThunderMax EFI AutoTune, SE slip-ons, K&N AC, 76 RWHP/90 TQ
2002 VRSCA - JE Illusions paint, Renegade Sonic Rims, Progressive 440 lowered shocks, Metzler rubber, 110 RWHP
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 5/2/2008 9:29:06 AM
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stro1965
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Any results yet from increasing the accel fuel settings?
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 5/2/2008 11:42:59 AM
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sheldong
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Randy Dull over at zippers sent me a procedure to deal with pinging at certain rpms. I would be happy to send it to you. it is about adjusting ignition timing, but very targeted at the problem area of map.
shoot me an email at sheldon.grooms@amd.com
-sheldon
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 5/2/2008 1:33:16 PM
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stro1965
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I've been dealing with a ping, mostly when I'm 2 up under load. Bring the rpm's up and the ping goes away, but it's annoying. Today I knocked back the timing on the rear cylinder 2 degrees from about 15% throttle to 35% throttle, and I increased the ACCEL FUEL from 10 to 12. I'm hoping that this simple combination works. I test rode it and it still pulls hard, runs like a top, but I won't know if it helped until I can get mama on the back and it's too cold for that today.
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2007 Peace Officer Ultra Classic
Thundermax Auto Tune
S/E Air Cleaner
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 5/5/2008 12:10:10 PM
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stro1965
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So far, so good. I tried to make it ping yesterday (2-up) and couldn't. This was under circumstances that almost certainly would have produced a ping before the changes. BUT it was just 72 degrees outside. Hot summer weather will tell the real story. Also, I'm pretty sure it's just in my head but I could swear the bike runs even better now, like the throttle response is quicker and it's smoother all around.
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2007 Peace Officer Ultra Classic
Thundermax Auto Tune
S/E Air Cleaner
V&H Pro-Pipe
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 5/9/2008 12:28:18 AM
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Hrtnrse
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stro1965
So far, so good. I tried to make it ping yesterday (2-up) and couldn't. This was under circumstances that almost certainly would have produced a ping before the changes. BUT it was just 72 degrees outside. Hot summer weather will tell the real story. Also, I'm pretty sure it's just in my head but I could swear the bike runs even better now, like the throttle response is quicker and it's smoother all around.
I'd bet it's just in your head. K 
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 5/9/2008 2:08:03 AM
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djcustom1
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cool, keep us posted
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 5/20/2008 9:48:23 AM
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JustLoafin
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Just looking for an update on any of the changes anyone has done. I finally got the ride my bike in some temps over 60 and my bike is pinging something awful!!!! The 2 times I rode in anything over 75 it pings from off the line, lets up a little and then starts again from 1800 rpm on up. And even the amount of pinging varies as the ride progresses. I can diminish it if I start off the line with the engine over 2000 rpm and when I climb grades or accelerate with very little throttle (like barely opening it). I am running map 392 with mine and only mods of V&H Basic slip ons with stock header pipes and SE A/C unit. I also run Shell or Chevron premium fuel. Never pinged this bad with the stock ECM and stage 1 download. Any help would be appreciated. The guy at Zippers suggested map 383 but, that one looks leaner than the 392 map.
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'07 Ultra Cobalt/Pewter Pearl
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RE: ThunderMax pinging Twin Cam 96 - 5/20/2008 1:54:21 PM
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rbabos
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From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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You have too much timing advance for your setup and unless you want to edit the timing, another map may be more appropriate. Advanced timing is great if it works, unfortunately to have a correct timing for all conditions you may ride in, it will be considerably less than max advance. Things like leaner afrs, load, high air pressure (weather), and temps all require a less agressive timing unless all the above influences have been taken into account and settings are done to them.
Ron
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