RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/2/2008 9:51:22 PM
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KindredSpirit
Posts: 28
Joined: 6/20/2006
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Too bad these two subjects are in one post. It bites that somebody died on a bike for any reason. If it was mechanical malfunction that is even worse. We all run the risk that a flat tire, dropped valve, or other failure that would just stop a car could kill on a bike. My deepest sympathy to all in this family.
On the technical front, I side with the innocent until guilty sentiments. On the surface, it hints of the the Audi unintended acceleration fiasco. 60 Minutes convinced an entire generation of buyers that Audis were unsafe. And then years later it comes out that the victims panicked and stepped on the gas instead of the brake.
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/2/2008 10:28:18 PM
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ww1flyingace
Posts: 470
Joined: 5/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 8up
Any time and any way a Biker dies it is traggic,but how do they know the throtte stuck?
Because if it was NOT the bikes fault, there's no huge corporation to sue.
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/3/2008 2:28:19 AM
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ripper43
Posts: 472
Joined: 10/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ww1flyingace
quote:
ORIGINAL: 8up
Any time and any way a Biker dies it is traggic,but how do they know the throtte stuck?
Because if it was NOT the bikes fault, there's no huge corporation to sue.
As negative as that sounds, it is also very true unfortunately. The fact that the bike was in the shop previously for a problem with the TBW system might and I say "might" be all that is behind the blame of the possible cause of this accident. The sad thing is the fact that we may never know what or why this happened by the time the Lawyers get through with it.
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and a bunch more expensive stuff
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/3/2008 2:46:04 AM
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russl179
Posts: 968
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Matthews, NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: choochoo
Number one BITE ME!!
Number two, I'm not the only one here that mentioned it.
Number three So bite me again!!
Yes we will have to see if it can be proven.
But there have been numerous posts about 08 having a high idle
at various times.
The computer should never override what the operator is doing.
the operator may have a valid reason for his action.
all I want people here to do, is if they feel they have a valid complaint
is to not take it lying down like a whipped dog.
got a feeling you are a whipped dog or even worse a company yes man
with no real thoughts of your own! For that I can get a parrot or a myna bird!!
So if you don't like my posts, skip mine.
quote:
ORIGINAL: russl179
quote:
ORIGINAL: choochoo
My condolences to the family.
Hope they can prove it was a HD design flaw.
We really need NEW BLOOD AT THE TOP LEVEL OF MOCO
who has real concerns for us customers!
Again my condolences!
Through this, you need to bring into the mix your petty problems with HD. You are one sad individual.
ChewChew.....you are an example of someone who has ZERO class. This thread is not the place for you to do your Sportster whining about HD. This thread is a way to wish the man's family God's speed. You never, ever leave an opportunity to rant about HD. You have no clue on when and where to whine. Your actions are pitiful.
< Message edited by russl179 -- 4/3/2008 2:20:37 PM >
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"A government that can give you everything you want is a government that is powerful enough to take everything you have." -- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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RE: Anyone seen this - 4/3/2008 2:47:29 AM
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russl179
Posts: 968
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Matthews, NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: choochoo
let's see HDMOCO can't make a simple outdoor thermometer
(ambient air temp) work right, and you're going to trust them
with your life to make a TBW that works flawlessly?
I don't think so!!!
quote:
ORIGINAL: ripper43
quote:
ORIGINAL: jag1886
I looked at 08's RC's before purchasing my 07RC. I told my wife it the showroom that I wasn't willing to trust my life to some new technology that Harley had dreamed up.
Thats just it, it's not new It's been around a long time. maybe not in this application but in many others.
This is about a man's life, you dolt....not about your daily rant about the air temp gauge. Get a freaking life.
_____________________________
"A government that can give you everything you want is a government that is powerful enough to take everything you have." -- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/3/2008 3:10:19 AM
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Duracell
Posts: 648
Joined: 10/8/2007
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My condolences to the family and friends.
Reading this thread and a few others on the TBW issue I've noticed that the 08 owners who have actually experienced a problem have posted about an idle problem only, no sticking throttles and no accelerations.
The idle problem is between the ECU and the throttle control motor, it has little to do with the grip sensor. It is a nuisance problem not a life threatening issue, and a simple procedure has been posted to reset it. Simply the learning curve of something new. As far as some of the statements that cars don't do this and it's an HD issue, sorry that's far from true. All computer controlled vehicles, ALL OF THEM, exhibit a learning curve based on driver input. Many parameters are adjusted based on individual driving habits. The high idle issue is simply one of those parameters in Harley's programming, Programming that I believe was written by DELPHI.(Same as General Motors).
As far as a sticking throttle or an accelerating throttle I haven't seen any first hand posts yet from someone with an 08 that has actually had those problems, just a lot of 07 and earlier owners making claims about something they think or predict will happen. The signal from the TBW is not a simply an on and off switch. It's a complicated signal with redundant fail safes to prevent unintended acceleration.
If anyone WHO RIDES AN 08 bike would like to post about other then idle problems that THEY HAVE ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE of I'm sure I'm not the only member here who would like to here about it.
< Message edited by Duracell -- 4/3/2008 4:12:43 AM >
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08 Street Glide
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/3/2008 1:04:14 PM
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RoadKing_Al
Posts: 325
Joined: 10/29/2007
From: Lakewood, N.J.
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I usually don't post on alot of issues but I started reading this post since it started and have returned for the updates.
I was out riding with my son today and we stopped by the HD dealer because he had a recall on his regulator. Now I'm not an Ole salt when it comes to riding, I'm a newbie and I got into this riding so I can spend more time with my son. So here's what happen to me. I'm parked in a parking space at the HD facing out into the lane. You have to make an immediate sharp left turn to exit. I start my exit to the left and the RPM's shoot up. First thing that hit's me is this thread (holy cr*p!). I pull in the clutch and the RPM's are going up higher. TBW fault you say, not even close. When I left the space and started my left turn I had 3 fingers laying on the brake and thumb-palm wrap on the grip, making the left turn forced the throttle to increase the RPM. I couldn't release the grip it felt like it was glued there, but I did have the sense to pull the clutch and then got the throttle rolled down. Embarrassed yes as others saw it happen. This instance was defiantly my fault and luckily I have learn from this.
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/3/2008 1:34:14 PM
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DeJavu
Posts: 2824
Joined: 6/29/2007
From: Bellville, Tx
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Whatever the cause, a good man went down. Hope his wife can recover from this, and the friends and family. Good luck to you all.
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/3/2008 1:44:21 PM
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FLHXn
Posts: 180
Joined: 1/17/2008
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Gotta wonder about this one.. You can't be sure that the TBW caused the problem... Very sad,, agreed, but I'd hate to see Harley get a bad rep if it's not absolutely true.
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/3/2008 2:07:34 PM
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Trock
Posts: 591
Joined: 7/13/2007
From: Missouri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: YodaddyKeith
Come on!...Get real!...Stop defending the stupid asses that designed HD TBW.
Yeah, fersure it's proven tech on many cars, but how many cars out there will reset the throttle if you shut engine off while you have it reved up?.....None....Only Harley does this!
Yep, if you have engine reved when you hit kill switch, the new idle speed is where the engine was when you killed it.....NOW THAT IS FARKED UP!
Yet many of you here say it's just a glitch and we should learn to not use kill switch least we end up with out of control idle speed.....
You defenders with '08 TBW might end up in a ditch bleeding out while the MOCO and EMT's and all your friends whisper it was operator error(like is always is to John Public whenever a biker gets splattered).....Yeah, wait till you end up like that then try to prove TBW failed.....The bike will be wrecked, you will be wrecked, and all the King's horses and all his men won't be able to determine what really happened.
Read your own post! Your saying you believe the man died because his TBW made him crash and then turn right around and say we won't be able to prove it was the TWB if we crash??
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/3/2008 2:11:06 PM
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Xtreme
Posts: 313
Joined: 4/3/2008
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God rest his soul
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/3/2008 6:31:21 PM
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capnlovr
Posts: 133
Joined: 4/3/2008
From: Mediapolis, IA
Status: offline
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Everybody is just assuming that the TBW stuck open. Knowbody has any proof.
I'm not worried about TBW, I even went out and bought a new 08 SG after reading some of these posts.
I'm glad this was posted though, it might save someone life since they now know what to do if it sticks. Pull the clutch or hit the kill switch.
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/3/2008 11:45:29 PM
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Kennyv
Posts: 31
Joined: 11/27/2007
From: Powhatan Arkansas
Status: offline
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I offer my condolenses to the family may God be with them
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/4/2008 2:53:43 AM
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russl179
Posts: 968
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Matthews, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: choochoo
Again I say BITE me.
I have to guess you are too damn ignorant to understsand me
wjen I say, just don't bother resding my posts if they upset you so much.
Besides in the above example of a sporty going don, was in response to
anothers statement of pull in clutch and hit kill switch.
Was just trying to show that when it is happening to you and everything
is happening in real time and FAST, you most likely will not instinctively
pull the clutch and hit the kill switch. it takes time for the brain to process
all the incoming information make a decision and react. Normally 3/4 to 1 sec
and buy then in many cases kill switch or not may be too late.
so again BITe me you wise azz dumb azz
As Mr T was fond ofsaying " I pity the fool.." And you are the fool I am speaking about!!!
quote:
ORIGINAL: russl179
quote:
ORIGINAL: choochoo
Number one BITE ME!!
Number two, I'm not the only one here that mentioned it.
Number three So bite me again!!
Yes we will have to see if it can be proven.
But there have been numerous posts about 08 having a high idle
at various times.
The computer should never override what the operator is doing.
the operator may have a valid reason for his action.
all I want people here to do, is if they feel they have a valid complaint
is to not take it lying down like a whipped dog.
got a feeling you are a whipped dog or even worse a company yes man
with no real thoughts of your own! For that I can get a parrot or a myna bird!!
So if you don't like my posts, skip mine.
quote:
ORIGINAL: russl179
quote:
ORIGINAL: choochoo
My condolences to the family.
Hope they can prove it was a HD design flaw.
We really need NEW BLOOD AT THE TOP LEVEL OF MOCO
who has real concerns for us customers!
Again my condolences!
Through this, you need to bring into the mix your petty problems with HD. You are one sad individual.
ChewChew.....you are an example of someone who has ZERO class. This thread is not the place for you to do your Sportster whining about HD. This thread is a way to wish the man's family God's speed. You never, ever leave an opportunity to rant about HD. You have no clue on when and where to whine. Your actions are pitiful.
It is a shame that you made it an effort to make this thread, like several others, all about you.
_____________________________
"A government that can give you everything you want is a government that is powerful enough to take everything you have." -- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/4/2008 2:56:52 AM
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XTrooper3936
Posts: 1113
Joined: 10/4/2006
From: Retired and living in the mountains of NE PA
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If someone actually got killed, I'm sorry for the family's loss, but I have to call Internet BS on the alleged cause. Sounds like someone is looking for a big payday via a trumped up lawsuit to me. If it WAS an out-of-control throttle (electronic or otherwise), and assuming the guy knew where the clutch lever was located, why in hell didn't he just disengage the clutch? Put yourself in the same scenario. What would you do? I never had a bike throttle stick, but it happened to me several times in the junker cars I had when I was young. When it happened, I pushed in the clutch pedal, and pulled onto the shoulder of the road to get it unstuck. Problem solved and without drama.
P.S.- If anyone here has a reaction time of between "3/4 to 1 sec," I suggest they stay the hell of the road. FYI, the average driver's reaction time is .088 seconds, that is, less than 9/10ths of a second.
< Message edited by XTrooper3936 -- 4/4/2008 3:16:20 AM >
_____________________________
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NJSP - Retired
Life Member:
Veterans of Foreign Wars
Vietnam Veterans of America
2008 Electra Glide In Blue
FLHT w/ABS & Cruise Control
http://xtrooper.net/
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/4/2008 4:25:49 AM
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HARDGLIDE
Posts: 17
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline
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Harley did not invent TBW the Yamaha R1 has it for two years already came originaly from GP race bikes.in case it sticks, just pull in the clutch.
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/4/2008 4:44:24 AM
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Duracell
Posts: 648
Joined: 10/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HARDGLIDE
Harley did not invent TBW the Yamaha R1 has it for two years already came originaly from GP race bikes.in case it sticks, just pull in the clutch.
It wasn't INVENTED by Yamaha either. That technology has been in cars and trucks for nearly 20 years.
_____________________________
08 Street Glide
SERT
SE AC
SE slip-ons
Zumo 550
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/4/2008 5:17:45 AM
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malmax
Posts: 60
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
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First off...sorry for the loss. Yes, I have heard of this problem. Harley is dragging it's feet to solve the issue. I hope this gets their attention, and forces them to do a full recall before someone else gets hurt.
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/4/2008 5:31:07 AM
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nutflush607
Posts: 52
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline
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Roadking, it is refreshing to see you step up and say it was your error and not the TBW. you could have said that it was a problem with the throttle. What would that have accomplished, nothing except more fears from all of us guys makiing a purchase of a 2008 road king. I for one would be the first to step up and say it was my fault or lack of knowledge if something was to go wrong. how else are we going to get to the bottom of a problem if we dont know the whole story. I am sorry for the guys family and him loosing his life, also It would be nice for us all to step up and say, HEY man it was my fault that this or that happened, and not make quick judgements. There is a backgound to everything that results in an unfortunate incident and yes we all should be aware of it. BUT we need guys to be able and willing to say it was their fault if in fact it was. How many 08 touring bikes are out on the road and compare to how many people are registered on here? It is realy hard to make a judgement of something unless we have some concrete data. such as the service bulliten (M-1213A) Engine Idle Temperature Management System. which I would have never been aware of if I hadn't been on hdforums. We need these forums and we are not here to put anybody down as we are all on here for the same thing, (Information). We all need to take all this with an open mind and all learn something. I want to thank everybody for their help in me making my decision to purchase a 2008 Road King. I hope I have offended no one.
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Where'd I leave my keys....
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/4/2008 5:40:32 AM
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XTrooper3936
Posts: 1113
Joined: 10/4/2006
From: Retired and living in the mountains of NE PA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: malmax
Yes, I have heard of this problem.
I've "heard" about this problem myself. That doesn't mean it's true or that any real "issue" exists. People seem to LOVE conspiracy theories around here, but I for one don't unquestioningly believe everything I hear or read on the Internet.
_____________________________
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NJSP - Retired
Life Member:
Veterans of Foreign Wars
Vietnam Veterans of America
2008 Electra Glide In Blue
FLHT w/ABS & Cruise Control
http://xtrooper.net/
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/4/2008 5:53:52 AM
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restorick
Posts: 43
Joined: 11/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jsans
The question that needs to be asked is... were they using an after-market race tuner on this bike?
Hell of a question, but just one of many that needs to be answered before people jump to condemn TBW or HD.
Resto
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/4/2008 11:12:34 AM
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twincam47
Posts: 364
Joined: 10/12/2007
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sorry to hear a fellow enthusiast passing away and all the best to his wife.....
TBW....is getting pelted here and there is alot of arm chair quarterbacking.....
so while you are at it..consider this.......
Cruise Control preset at some time prior back down the freeway @ 70 mph.......cruise kicked off sometime prior to the curve in the road and negotiating the curve @ 40 mph.....inadvertantly hitting the 'resume' switch....and away we go......
Point is...will we ever know exactly what happened?
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/4/2008 12:24:10 PM
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MarkandMary
Posts: 569
Joined: 3/21/2008
Status: offline
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Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
We will pray for her full recovery, may he RIP
I think we all have gotten way of topic, start another thread to discuss the TBW.
_____________________________
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2005 Sportster 1200C
2001 Sportster 1200C (sold)
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1978 Yamaha 250
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/4/2008 6:02:50 PM
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choochoo
Posts: 2301
Joined: 1/20/2007
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I guess you must be in love with me you only read my posts and nobody elses,
I did not start the subject of a posssible HD at fault claim here.
I did NOT rant about the sporty.
It was an informative statement about the kill switch and hitting it
instinctively. I believe few if any here would do it, when an event like this
is happening to them.
You just turned it around in that birdsized brain of yours.
But please , find somebody else to adore and worship and pant after.
I already have a g/F and she treats me well.
I hate to bust your bubble so, but I'm sure you will get over it.
It was just puppy love on yur part anyway.
quote:
ORIGINAL: russl179
My mamma told me not to argue with a fool, I should have listened closer.
quote:
ORIGINAL: choochoo
Again I say BITE me.
I have to guess you are too damn ignorant to understsand me
wjen I say, just don't bother resding my posts if they upset you so much.
Besides in the above example of a sporty going don, was in response to
anothers statement of pull in clutch and hit kill switch.
Was just trying to show that when it is happening to you and everything
is happening in real time and FAST, you most likely will not instinctively
pull the clutch and hit the kill switch. it takes time for the brain to process
all the incoming information make a decision and react. Normally 3/4 to 1 sec
and buy then in many cases kill switch or not may be too late.
so again BITe me you wise azz dumb azz
As Mr T was fond ofsaying " I pity the fool.." And you are the fool I am speaking about!!!
quote:
ORIGINAL: russl179
quote:
ORIGINAL: choochoo
Number one BITE ME!!
Number two, I'm not the only one here that mentioned it.
Number three So bite me again!!
Yes we will have to see if it can be proven.
But there have been numerous posts about 08 having a high idle
at various times.
The computer should never override what the operator is doing.
the operator may have a valid reason for his action.
all I want people here to do, is if they feel they have a valid complaint
is to not take it lying down like a whipped dog.
got a feeling you are a whipped dog or even worse a company yes man
with no real thoughts of your own! For that I can get a parrot or a myna bird!!
So if you don't like my posts, skip mine.
quote:
ORIGINAL: russl179
quote:
ORIGINAL: choochoo
My condolences to the family.
Hope they can prove it was a HD design flaw.
We really need NEW BLOOD AT THE TOP LEVEL OF MOCO
who has real concerns for us customers!
Again my condolences!
Through this, you need to bring into the mix your petty problems with HD. You are one sad individual.
ChewChew.....you are an example of someone who has ZERO class. This thread is not the place for you to do your Sportster whining about HD. This thread is a way to wish the man's family God's speed. You never, ever leave an opportunity to rant about HD. You have no clue on when and where to whine. Your actions are pitiful.
It is a shame that you made it an effort to make this thread, like several others, all about you.
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RE: Anyone seen this ? TBW causes death - 4/4/2008 6:13:04 PM
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choochoo
Posts: 2301
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline
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And 3/4 of a second is .75 seconds and that actually is quite accurate.
reaction time on a two wheeled bike is different than a 4 wheel cage.
Plus you have other forces acting on you more directly than in a car.
If he was going into a curve as somewhat indicated, he was applying
a certain percentage of throttle based on sharpness of curve, his combined
weight working against centrifugal force, plus the amount of lean and other factors.
To suddenly pull in the clutch to compensate for the over revving and over speeding
could cause the bike to fall into the turn and thus go down anyway.
and your .088 = 9/10 needs to read .88. which means my .75 (3/4) to 1 falls right
in with your statement.
uh oh I got to go here comes my admiring lover chasing me again. .............
quote:
ORIGINAL: XTrooper3936
If someone actually got killed, I'm sorry for the family's loss, but I have to call Internet BS on the alleged cause. Sounds like someone is looking for a big payday via a trumped up lawsuit to me. If it WAS an out-of-control throttle (electronic or otherwise), and assuming the guy knew where the clutch lever was located, why in hell didn't he just disengage the clutch? Put yourself in the same scenario. What would you do? I never had a bike throttle stick, but it happened to me several times in the junker cars I had when I was young. When it happened, I pushed in the clutch pedal, and pulled onto the shoulder of the road to get it unstuck. Problem solved and without drama.
P.S.- If anyone here has a reaction time of between "3/4 to 1 sec," I suggest they stay the hell of the road. FYI, the average driver's reaction time is .088 seconds, that is, less than 9/10ths of a second.
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RE: Anyone seen this - 4/4/2008 6:15:39 PM
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Shoe
Posts: 125
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ripper43
quote:
ORIGINAL: The Baron
My condolences to the involved parties.
I have a question though. Couldn't a guy just pull in the clutch?
This is why I stick to old school carbs and cables. Electrical demons are worthy foes.
I thought the very same thing. Pull in the clutch ? hard to say with out being there.
Or hit the kill switch.. Its amazing that the TBW technology has been out there since the 80's. How can this be such a huge issue??
Dave
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