5 Questions to ask your tuner
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5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/6/2008 10:50:34 AM
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Doc 1
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From: Florida
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Gentleman here are five questions you can ask your tuner to see what his skill level is without being conspicuous. These are 5 simple questions that a good experienced tuner can and will be able to spit out the answers correctly and without a great deal of thought and the whole time your asking them the questions it will seem like a general conversation of you getting a little knowledge of the tuning procedures from him. If your tuner can't answer all, or any, of these questions it's time for you to search out another shop.
1) How long will my bike be on the Dyno to tune the SERT?
(answer) 4 to 5 hours
2) How many Dyno runs will you have to make to finish a tune?
(answer) 50 to 70 on a average
3) What are people talking about when they say you have to SYNCHRONIZE the VE tables?
(answer) By Synchronizing the VE Table to the Fuel Table your telling the ECM the new air flow through the motor from the mods you made.
4) I heard something about a Step Test, can you tell me what that is?
(answer) The Step Test is a program in the winPEP 7 software (Dyno Software) that allows us to sample the AFR longer for a better reading at 2%, 5%, 7%, 10%, and 15% Throttle Position. This is where the bike lives so we want a good AFR sample to make our edits.
5) Do you change the AFR Table to one value as you tune?
(answer) Yes, 13.2. This makes it easier to synchronize the VE Table.
If your tuner can answer these simple questions chances are (99%) you will get a good tune. I hope this will give you all a better idea who your trusting your $20,000.00 investment with.
Just trying to help!
Doc
PS. If they don't answer all of the questions correctly, PLEASE give them my phone number for training - it's in my signature.
< Message edited by Doc 1 -- 4/6/2008 11:00:00 AM >
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HDMD Tuning Center
EFI Training
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hdmd88@yahoo.com
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/6/2008 10:57:53 AM
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LdyMjo
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I'm printing this list to take with me--thanks Doc !
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2008 Nightster-1200XLN, vivid black, tribal paint, Rush 2" baloney-cut pipes, SE A/C, SE Race Tuner, Corbin Classic.
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/6/2008 11:21:13 AM
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VTwinJaxFL
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Thanks Doc!! This is great info to have, I assume these same questions or most of them would apply to a powercommander?
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2007 FLTRI - ThunderMax EFI AutoTune, SE slip-ons, K&N AC, 76 RWHP/90 TQ
2002 VRSCA - JE Illusions paint, Renegade Sonic Rims, Progressive 440 lowered shocks, Metzler rubber, 110 RWHP
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/6/2008 12:36:31 PM
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Doc 1
Posts: 1866
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From: Florida
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No, VTwinJaxFL, the PCIII is quite a bit different in it's procedures, although to do one correctly you will be on the Dyno 3 to 4 hours.
I have done the Step Test with PCIII in the past and it works fine but as you know there are no VE Tables in the PCIII so there is no reason the insert one AFR value in the fuel table to Sync. the VE Tables.
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HDMD Tuning Center
EFI Training
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hdmd88@yahoo.com
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/6/2008 12:50:15 PM
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Wolfie40
Posts: 98
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From: Hartland,Wisconsin
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Thanks Doc!
I'm printing this out and taking it with me..
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2008 Ultra - Two Tone
Crimson red sunglo / Candy red sunglo
V&H Tru-Duals with slash cut basic slipons
Screamin Eagle A/C
Screamin Eagle Race Tuner
Lots of extras!
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/6/2008 1:44:32 PM
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screamn_eagle
Katrina Fund Contributor
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thanks doc..i will be calling on monday to talk to the tuner at my dealership...you're the best dude
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IF YOU'RE NOT RIDING A HARLEY...YOU'RE JUST PASSING WIND
SCOTT
08 CROSS BONES
103 BIG BORE
SE PRO HEADS
SE PRO AIR CLEANER
D&D FATCATS
SERT
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/6/2008 4:32:49 PM
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airfuel
Posts: 60
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Good LORD!
4-5 hours of your bike on the dyno doing 50-70 pulls?? No wonder dealers just slam canned maps in.
A Power Commander tuning center using Tuning Link can tune both cylinders in about an hour with just a fraction of the pulls! And do a better job than manually tuning a map.
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/6/2008 5:58:39 PM
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whittlebeast
Posts: 287
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Question 6... Do I get the map if I bring a thumb drive to put it on? If the answer is no, find someone else to tune it. What if he goes out of business and the fuel changes in your area two years later, you are hosed.
Question 7... Can I get the data log from the final pull on the thumb drive? If the answer is no, he has no faith in his ability. Any standard format is fine.
< Message edited by whittlebeast -- 4/6/2008 6:42:02 PM >
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When the racers get done doing the impossible the engineers get a chance to correct the errors in the model.
***My other addiction, running Megasquirt EFI ***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXH4WWhqZ_s
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/6/2008 6:28:16 PM
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Doc 1
Posts: 1866
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From: Florida
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quote:
ORIGINAL: airfuel
Good LORD!
4A Power Commander tuning center using Tuning Link can tune both cylinders in about an hour with just a fraction of the pulls! And do a better job than manually tuning a map.
Now that is a bold statement....! I've been using the Tuning Link Program for years and it will dial in the PCIII very quickly but your not done tuning by a long shot, there is Timing and best AFR tuning to do. If you think you can get a better tune from a Tuning Link Program vs a SERT you sadly mistaken. Power Commander is a fine tool but it won't do what a SERT can do in the hands of someone who knows how to use it correctly and completely.
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/6/2008 7:19:04 PM
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Bertk
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From: SW Florida
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whittlebeast
Question 6... Do I get the map if I bring a thumb drive to put it on? If the answer is no, find someone else to tune it. What if he goes out of business and the fuel changes in your area two years later, you are hosed.
Question 7... Can I get the data log from the final pull on the thumb drive? If the answer is no, he has no faith in his ability. Any standard format is fine.
You read my mind, whittlebeast. These same two questions came to me as I was reading Doc's five excellent questions.
Way to go Doc, educating the tuner and customer alike. 
_____________________________
Ride Safe,
Bert
2008 FLHX SG - Black Pearl
96ci / V&H Ture Duals / V&H Oval Slip-on's
SE A-C Kit / SERT / Latus HD Dyno Map
Chrome ThunderStar Wheels
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/6/2008 7:54:36 PM
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Doc 1
Posts: 1866
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From: Florida
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What is a sweep test.....hows that Bob...lol
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/6/2008 8:29:38 PM
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05 HD Deluxe
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Doc
One of the tuners in my area tunes with the Sert, however he prefers to tune with Direct Link. I understand they are allot like a sert. The direct link is cheeper to buy, however you only get the key to access the ecm. The only problem is if this guy goes out of business there is no other tuners around my area that use the Direct link. Can the ECM be brought back to where it was before. What do you know about Direct link ?
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2005 FLSTN
V&H True Duals
Screaming Eagle A/C
HD Download w/ PCIII / Dyno
10" Chubby Apes
Enough chrome to go around
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/7/2008 3:44:06 AM
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whittlebeast
Posts: 287
Joined: 3/2/2007
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Bob
Please explain the 10% thing. Is that a setting on the dyno like 10% of the total bike weight with riders as a resistance on the rollers? The trick is figuring out if he knows how to do it.
How would a customer tell if the dyno operator knows how to do these tests? A sweep test is a name that sounds like it could be defined it several different ways. "shure.. I nail the throttle and watch the needle sweep all the way up to 6000"
I bet lots of these guys have no idea how to calibrate the wideband. I would think there are lots of so called "carb tuners" that don't even own a widband.
AW
_____________________________
When the racers get done doing the impossible the engineers get a chance to correct the errors in the model.
***My other addiction, running Megasquirt EFI ***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXH4WWhqZ_s
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/7/2008 5:39:16 AM
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Doc 1
Posts: 1866
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From: Florida
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Direct link is just another software that opens the lines of communication with the ECM, I lie the SERT better for only one reason....I know how to use the SERT and I don't know the Direct Link....lol.....but this was your point wasn't it.
The ECM can be overwritten no matter what software was used....if you had Direct Link change the settings in the ECM yesterday I can come in and re write the ECM with the SERT.
Hope that answered your question.
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/7/2008 6:33:38 AM
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airfuel
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc 1
Now that is a bold statement....! I've been using the Tuning Link Program for years and it will dial in the PCIII very quickly but your not done tuning by a long shot, there is Timing and best AFR tuning to do. If you think you can get a better tune from a Tuning Link Program vs a SERT you sadly mistaken. Power Commander is a fine tool but it won't do what a SERT can do in the hands of someone who knows how to use it correctly and completely.
Not a bold statement, fact.
95 percent of the normal HD running problems are fueling issues. For the average guy who puts on exhaust, air cleaner and maybe a cam, all the engine wants is the correct amount of fuel to make it happy.
The Harley motor is a dinosaur that just wants fuel, it is hardly the sophisticated motor most think it is that needs complete re-tuning from the factory.
The SERT is fine but overkill for 99 percent of the people out there.
IF you can find a good SERT tuner and not "skippy" running the dyno on his summer break from school, fine. Leave you bike and hope the dealer actually puts your bike on the dyno and not just load a canned map.
If you want to get the bike running well, a PC and a couple of hours on the dyno, (not all day) you will get a great running bike. (and save some $$$ for more chrome)
This site is doing way too much "SERT" worshipping at the expense of other tuning devices. SERT is not perfect and takes a toll on your bike to get a decent tune. (how many re-starts does the bike need during a tuning session?)
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/7/2008 7:22:33 AM
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Doc 1
Posts: 1866
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From: Florida
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..... ...guess I struck a nerve there Airfuel....not looking for a cyber fight here I don't have time for such nonsense. I'm sure you do a good job with the PC, I have no problem using the PC III like I said, but then again I know how to use the SERT correctly too, so you do your thing and I'll do mine.
< Message edited by Doc 1 -- 4/7/2008 11:11:34 AM >
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/7/2008 7:37:45 AM
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VooDooChile
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/7/2008 7:38:16 AM
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SteveUltra
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I want to start this post by publicly thanking Doc for posting and for picking up the phone and helping a guy from Virginia he doesn't even know. (Thanks Doc). My question is how do I make sure my tunner leaves my bike in closed loop operation, I understand some tunners claim to get good results by setting it up to run in open loop at all times as does the PC and any other system that eleminates the O2 sensors. Personally I want a ECM that can maintain closed loop operation.
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03 FLHR (gone but not forgotten)
08 FLHTCU Stage 1 SERT
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/7/2008 7:39:31 AM
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whittlebeast
Posts: 287
Joined: 3/2/2007
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Airfuel
What version of the PC software and hardware do you feel is as adjustable as the SERT? The SERT is the only one that I have seen that makes it possible to get to a near EPA acceptable tune. This is huge if EPA testing comes to your state.
AW
_____________________________
When the racers get done doing the impossible the engineers get a chance to correct the errors in the model.
***My other addiction, running Megasquirt EFI ***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXH4WWhqZ_s
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/7/2008 7:46:22 AM
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KBFXDLI
Posts: 8071
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From: Cleveland, Ohio USA
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My first question will now be:
1. Wow, what a nice shop......so how long have you been working here? Gee, these sure are some fancy motorcycles....I'll bet it takes all day to tune one of those things with that gizmo...what does it do? Man o man how many times do you have to race that motor to get it right? My friend in Florida says it takes him most all day to do that...how long does it take you? Can't you just make one program and stick it on all the other bikes...looks to me like the motors are pretty much the same?
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Our contest is not only whether we ourselves shall be free, but whether there shall be left to mankind an asylum on earth for civil and religious liberty. Sam Adams
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/7/2008 10:57:50 AM
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Doc 1
Posts: 1866
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From: Florida
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveUltra
I want to start this post by publicly thanking Doc for posting and for picking up the phone and helping a guy from Virginia he doesn't even know. (Thanks Doc). My question is how do I make sure my tunner leaves my bike in closed loop operation, I understand some tunners claim to get good results by setting it up to run in open loop at all times as does the PC and any other system that eleminates the O2 sensors. Personally I want a ECM that can maintain closed loop operation.
Thanks Steve for your kind words.
I'm with your Steve, I like the fact that the ECM can monitor and correct AFR for aging motors and imperfections in fuel delivery.
To be sure the tuner left your map in closed loop it would take getting a copy of the map he/she did and simply open it to the Fuel Table to insure the low load section (cruise area) of the map has a 14.6 AFR programed in the grids. Too bad we can't access the map that is in the ECM with the SERT hooked up. This is one big update that TTS is going to have in their new software, this will be great because then you don't have to worry about getting a copy from your tuner, you can make one your self.
< Message edited by Doc 1 -- 4/7/2008 11:08:28 AM >
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/7/2008 1:23:10 PM
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screamn_eagle
Katrina Fund Contributor
Posts: 1676
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ok doc my first call was a disaster....i need a person to tune my bike and leesburg is just too far to ride out, sit 4-5 hours and then ride back(well it would be a great ride, but i just dont have the time) just for those who care these are the answers to the questions i asked
1)1/2 hour to an hour
2)15-30
3)couldn't answer what had to be synchronized (but did know what the VE stood for)
4)some BS answer , had NO IDEA what a STEP TEST was
5)was so disgusted i didn't even ask (although during question 3 he did say 13.2
someone please help me
_____________________________
IF YOU'RE NOT RIDING A HARLEY...YOU'RE JUST PASSING WIND
SCOTT
08 CROSS BONES
103 BIG BORE
SE PRO HEADS
SE PRO AIR CLEANER
D&D FATCATS
SERT
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/7/2008 3:05:54 PM
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airfuel
Posts: 60
Joined: 12/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whittlebeast
Airfuel
What version of the PC software and hardware do you feel is as adjustable as the SERT? The SERT is the only one that I have seen that makes it possible to get to a near EPA acceptable tune. This is huge if EPA testing comes to your state.
AW
Why would you want to be near EPA tune? You are either EPA compliant or you are not. It is pass /fail.
If you tune the bike to run correct, you are not near EPA guidlines. You could quickly make your bike stock and EPA compliant with the PC.
BTW you can tune the PC as lean or rich as you would like.
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/7/2008 3:56:05 PM
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Doc 1
Posts: 1866
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Florida
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Trailer it up and back...that would be a long day but a lot easier than riding both ways.....I'll take you to lunch too.
How about giving me a call....
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/8/2008 8:01:50 AM
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Harleypingman
Posts: 3651
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quote:
ORIGINAL: airfuel
Good LORD!
4-5 hours of your bike on the dyno doing 50-70 pulls?? No wonder dealers just slam canned maps in.
A Power Commander tuning center using Tuning Link can tune both cylinders in about an hour with just a fraction of the pulls! And do a better job than manually tuning a map.
Not so. But you are correct that most bike owners won't pay for a complete SERT tune and, to be honest, most don't need it.
On the other hand, if you spend a few thousand dollars on motor upgrades, the owner is likely more willing to pay for a complete remapping of the ECM a/f and ignition timing.
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/9/2008 4:21:39 PM
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adlerx
Posts: 432
Joined: 10/20/2007
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Thanks for the "5 questions" Doc. Just wish I'd had em before I paid $500+ to have my bike (partially) tuned by a very well known and highly regarded Portland tuner. I got a crappy rush job (2-1/2 hours and 20 pulls for a built 103" I knew it wasn't gonna be DONE when I first looked at the sheet)and don't have another $500 to take it somewhere else even if there was somewhere else to take it in the Pacific North West....
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2008 Road Glide, 103" Hillside Heads, Wood TW 6-6 cams, Supertrapp 2:1 SE/AC
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/9/2008 6:20:21 PM
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JonnyD
Posts: 617
Joined: 7/5/2006
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: adlerx
Thanks for the "5 questions" Doc. Just wish I'd had em before I paid $500+ to have my bike (partially) tuned by a very well known and highly regarded Portland tuner. I got a crappy rush job (2-1/2 hours and 20 pulls for a built 103" I knew it wasn't gonna be DONE when I first looked at the sheet)and don't have another $500 to take it somewhere else even if there was somewhere else to take it in the Pacific North West....
Oh....MY....God.... You're not bashing the king of all kings and the shop of all shops..... Latus H-D, are you  I betcha he's not a member of the HDforum, he'd want $5/month to comment on this 
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RE: 5 Questions to ask your tuner - 4/9/2008 8:50:28 PM
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adlerx
Posts: 432
Joined: 10/20/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JonnyD
quote:
ORIGINAL: adlerx
Thanks for the "5 questions" Doc. Just wish I'd had em before I paid $500+ to have my bike (partially) tuned by a very well known and highly regarded Portland tuner. I got a crappy rush job (2-1/2 hours and 20 pulls for a built 103" I knew it wasn't gonna be DONE when I first looked at the sheet)and don't have another $500 to take it somewhere else even if there was somewhere else to take it in the Pacific North West....
Oh....MY....God.... You're not bashing the king of all kings and the shop of all shops..... Latus H-D, are you I betcha he's not a member of the HDforum, he'd want $5/month to comment on this
I didn't mention any names. That's on you! But now that you mention it, I have had two bad tunes at the place I didn't mention from the person I didn't mention. First time shame on him, second time shame on me. See? It's my own damn fault! Anyhow, I have made my final visit to the large dealer with the giant flag who's name I didn't mention...
_____________________________
2008 Road Glide, 103" Hillside Heads, Wood TW 6-6 cams, Supertrapp 2:1 SE/AC
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