Engine seems to tap TOO much...
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Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/15/2008 3:52:54 PM
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neonhomer
Posts: 96
Joined: 4/6/2008
From: Volusia County, FL
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It could just be me... but the motor in my 04 Road King seems to tap a bit too much. To me, it almost sounds like the valves are out of adjusment, the lash being too loose. However, since the TC88 has hydraulic lifters, it shouldn't be tapping like this.
It seems to be more pronounced when the motor is under load. IIRC, I don't think it does it as bad when the motor is cold.
I don't know what oil is in the motor, as it was changed by the dealer when I bought it. It is clean, however. The bike has 23,600 miles on it, and is an FLHP/I. No modifications have been made to the motor that I know of. I run 93 octane gas in the bike as well.
Any help would be appreicated. I haven't even made my first payment yet, and I seem to already be having problems.
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NeonHomer
2004 Road King Police FLHP/I
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/15/2008 4:00:02 PM
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xxxflhrci
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Some tick more than others. It sucks, but for the most part there is nothing you can do about it. Sure, you can try some fixes, most commonly suggested is adding a Baisley spring to raise the oil pressure to the top end a bit. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't..........Basically, if it is running don't worry about it.
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2000 Road King Classic. Andrews 26G cams, SE Stage I, DFO, V&H True Duals with Samson Fishtail Mufflers.
1977 XLH, Nearly bone stock.
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/15/2008 5:24:59 PM
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neonhomer
Posts: 96
Joined: 4/6/2008
From: Volusia County, FL
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I don't know... A friend of mine has a 04 Road King Custom and his doesn't tap this bad. I spoke to a couple of different HD techs and they have told me the same thing, that they all do it. However, it just doesn't sound right...
What's this "Baisley Spring"? I would assume it is a different spring for the oil pump presuure regulator thingy... (I don't know much about air cooled motors, except for Volkswagens...)
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NeonHomer
2004 Road King Police FLHP/I
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/16/2008 4:31:50 PM
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Taterdog
Multiple Time Contributor
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From: Lenexa, KS (KC)
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You might try PM'ing Dawg, although he may not be checking in as much for the next few weeks. I think he posted an upgrade involving increasing the size of oil drain holes in the rocker arms or something like that. Supposed to increase lubrication on the top end. Mine ticks a little too, although more at idle than normal riding, and I've thought about doing this to see if it helps.
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/16/2008 5:53:00 PM
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jkoch06ultra
Posts: 531
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My 06 Ultra has a range where the valves clatter. Runs great but clatters under load until you get up to speed. I am running dino oil and may change to synth. I now have 33,000 miles. I will be interested in seeing what is said on this thread.
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/16/2008 7:21:17 PM
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Taterdog
Multiple Time Contributor
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Neonhommer, here's the link posted by Dawg about improving top end lubrication. I still have a hankering to try it.
Dawg: It's easier to pull the tanks on the 08's If you do pull the tank to remove the pushrods, then you might as well do the oil return trick like Doherty uses as explained HERE
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2000 FLHTCI
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Andrews 26G's
Ness Big Sucker
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/17/2008 7:03:53 AM
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shoveltrev
Posts: 28
Joined: 2/14/2008
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my 01 ultra clatters like a slant six dodge, ive replaced trashed stock cames with new take offs replaced cambearings, got screaming eagle adj pushrods which ill sell to any one who wants them for 75.00 and your stock pushrds, any way new lifters too. no improvement in noise actually got worse i can now hear the pushrods hitting the tubes, checked rocker to supports endplay rite at loose spec and i suspicion its what im hearing. it makes an audible clack when you push it towards the valve. so i plann to shim that up as soon as i get some gaskets an stock pushrods. will post back on results. I find it shamefull that this motor clatters more than my 82 shovel w 43k on it never opened up. trev.
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/17/2008 7:45:53 AM
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tcfamy
Posts: 185
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From: Two Rivers, WI
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I have gone through the same routine as shveltrev and many others. This winter I finally cleared most of the clatter by doing three things.
1.Pulled rocker cover and Checked side lash - ended up replacing front cylinder rocker arm support because of excessive side clearance. easy job and fairly cheap part.
2.After pulling both rocker covers I loosened the rocker arm supports and moved them as far as possible to the camshaft side before tightening. They moved a few thousandths.
3.Removed push rod and covers. Ground the upper inside lip with a dremel tool and small barrel sander. Opened it up maybe .050".
Sounds like a lot of work, but it can be done in an afternoons unless you need parts. Now there is some minor clicking but the marble in the valve box at 2500 rpm is gone. Took me three years to chase it down and I couldn't have done it without the collective advise from the forum. ---- tom
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/17/2008 9:41:29 AM
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shoveltrev
Posts: 28
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I took my lowers off cause i couldnt stand the amplified clatter, as an auto tech by trade the noise will drive my crazy. I also am goin to replace the compensater and sprockrt and chain as an assembly , the pri tensioner was layin on the bottem of case. I am amazed one of the screws didnt get sucked around the crank sprocket, the whole works took a beatingso for piece of mind im gonna just do it, sure do like ridinit though, the shovels so primative. everytime i switch back and forth it feels like i got a new bike. trev
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/19/2008 2:20:27 PM
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tootal
Posts: 111
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The top of the push rod tubes are swedged to form the o-ring seat. The inside diameter is reduced because of this. The bottom part of this tube is 13.5 mm. I took a drill this size and drilled out the top which gave me the clearance I needed. I had the JIM's titanium pushrods and you could see that they were hitting the tube. This pops the pushrod out of the socket on the rocker and when it slams back in you get the tick. SE is now selling a tapered adjustable pushrod that should stop the problem. I can't believe it took this long to figure out the problem, and then to get the cure from HD. The aftermarket really blew this one. RevTech even makes tapered ones for the evo but not for the TC. Wake up people!!
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tootal
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/20/2008 9:45:08 AM
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neonhomer
Posts: 96
Joined: 4/6/2008
From: Volusia County, FL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kruzin
Sounds like pinging to me. Do you have a tuner on it?
No tuner... yet. Everything is stock. I run 93 octane gas in it. I have no idea what oil is in the engine. It was just changed when I bought it. A friend of mine was telling me to try running 50w oil in it. Given that we are in Florida, there shouldn't be any problems. Just kinda hard to find a 50w synthetic. (Was thinking on running Kendall 50wt in it.)
I got a itch now to crack the cam cover open to see if anything is amiss, but I really don't want to take the exhaust off to do it!
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NeonHomer
2004 Road King Police FLHP/I
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/21/2008 6:09:03 AM
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shoveltrev
Posts: 28
Joined: 2/14/2008
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if you have the patience to got the bolts out of the cover you dont have to pull the exhaust ive done it twice. an allen wrench cut down real short helps.trev.
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/21/2008 10:11:30 AM
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BB Sue
Posts: 57
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Get one of those mechanic's stethescopes, or at least a long handled screwdriver against the ear, and probe until you find the noise. The probe stethescope is better as you can tape it to the motor and ride it in case it's a "only on the road" engine noise. But you can hear, not only where the noise is coming from, but what the noise sounds like...
Beware, tho... my Evo was doing the same thing until last Saturday... I knew it was there, figured, hell, after the riding season I'd fix it.
Guess the damn bike heard me and decided, Kewl, the riding season ends... now! ha haha... The innocent tic became a clatter becane a scrapeychunky within a quarter mile.
Oh, it runs really well - but only on the rear barrel. Crap. and Ug.
I knew it was gonna happen, at least I was close to home. Unfortunately, the garage is a mess, the place I go to have work done is backed up 2-3 weeks, so she went ))gulp(( to the local dealershop... Hope they don't freak over the Andrews cams, the Branch heads, the EZ-in pushrods, etc...
I *think* it had stock barrels, tho... so if that's the case (hope hope) I'll have them reddone (make that replaced, by the sound of what went wrong I want to start anew) and not worry about *that* for a while.
Oh, bike had 42K on it. Low miles. Damn. HATE it when that happens...
Find where your tic is. Then you know if you have detonation, or valve tap, or an exhaust leak, or a conrod bearing waiting to make your trip across town an adventure...
Sus
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/26/2008 4:36:21 PM
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neonhomer
Posts: 96
Joined: 4/6/2008
From: Volusia County, FL
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I just returned from the 150 mile roundtrip to Leesburg Bikefest, and the motor did this tapping all the way there. Performance doesn't seem to be affected, but I would swear it's getting worse.
I notice it more around 2500 rpm, and have also noticed a bit of a whine, which almost sounds like a belt whine. However, it goes away when you pull the clutch in. I really don't notice the clatter/tap below 2000 rpm.
Now I am worried about riding this bike too far, as I don't want to cause major damage to the engine. The bike only has 24,000 miles on it, so I seriously hope there is no major engine problems. If it does, it's going to sit a long time until I can afford to rebuild the motor. (Out goes the 88, in goes the 103!).
I thought about running to a thicker oil. Thought about 50w Valvoline or Kendall GT-1...
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NeonHomer
2004 Road King Police FLHP/I
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/26/2008 5:04:55 PM
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neonhomer
Posts: 96
Joined: 4/6/2008
From: Volusia County, FL
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I just broke out the redneck mechanic's stephescope (a wooden dowel I had laying around), and you can hear a definate "tap" or "click" coming from the rocker covers at idle.IIRC< motors with hydraulic lifters ARE NOT supposed to make this noise, as the lifter is supposed to take up the lash.
So, I wonder what the next step is?
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NeonHomer
2004 Road King Police FLHP/I
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/26/2008 7:51:09 PM
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panmann
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Just my 2 cents but I changed to Lucas synthetic and my 04 RK is much quieter. I know its not technical but I read it in an oil thread here.
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/27/2008 6:21:37 AM
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Jeff Dodson
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Werll mines been making this noise for 36,000 miles now and I dont sweat it anymore. Some days, like real humid days its worse, I figured it was the cooling fins on the heads. The motorcross motorcycles I rode when I was kid did the same thing. I am told my MANY Harley techs that its normal and dont worry about it. BTW, I use Royal Purple 20/50 eng., RP 75/90 in tranny, any RP 20/50 in primary. JUst ride it like you stole it.
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Angleton Tx.
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/28/2008 6:18:37 PM
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neonhomer
Posts: 96
Joined: 4/6/2008
From: Volusia County, FL
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Can't ride it like I stole it, cause I'm still payin for it!!!!
I changed my oil today to Valvoline Racing 50w, (it is grade SM, but NOT Energy Conserving), and it didn't seem to help. I didn't notice any metal shavings or powder on the magnet when I drained it, but didn't really see the oil as it drained.
I am really worried about this. I called the dealer today, and they are basically telling me "Oh Well". However, they did offer to let me buy a extended warranty. They will backdate it to when I bought the bike, and then I can bring it in to be looked at. It's $700 +tax for 1yr of warranty, and there is a $50 deductible everytime I bring it in. I think the warranty is a good idea, but $700 could be better spent elsewhere (on chrome goodies!)... Anyway, I have until Wednesday to decide if i want to or not.
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NeonHomer
2004 Road King Police FLHP/I
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 4/29/2008 5:09:34 PM
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neonhomer
Posts: 96
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From: Volusia County, FL
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More info... Popped the pushrod tubes off to check the pushrods. The front intake (I think, the pushrod closest to the intake port on the front cylinder.) pushrod spun really easy. No play, but really easy to spin with one finger. Others required a finger & thumb.
Anyway, the bike goes to the dealer on Friday. Anything I should tell them, request, or look out for? I am planning to mark down how many miles are on the bike, and to request to see any gaskets changed during inspection. If any parts are replaced, I am also going to ask to see them.
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NeonHomer
2004 Road King Police FLHP/I
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 5/3/2008 6:25:07 AM
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neonhomer
Posts: 96
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From: Volusia County, FL
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A lot of people reading, but no one writing.... reminds me of another thread I did on another board...
Anyway, took the bike over to the dealer yesterday. The service manager started by telling me the usual... TC88's sound like sewing machines... nothing they can do about it. However, he said he will still look into it, and said he will take it for a test ride. Says he will be gone for about 10-15 minutes as they go for 10 miles or so. He takes off, and comes back two minutes later, and goes right in the shop.
"I can't blame you for being concerned, it is making all kinds of racket, and it's not a light load noise either." (Or something to that effect.)
So, now I am waiting to see what they say. In the meantime, I have to drag the old Honda out and ride it if I want to ride anywhere. Sometimes I miss my old Honda...
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NeonHomer
2004 Road King Police FLHP/I
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 5/3/2008 7:13:00 AM
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TymToPla
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Been reading and not writing but nothing to add except intrest. Please keep going with the updates.
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 5/3/2008 7:26:44 AM
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xxxflhrci
Posts: 5796
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quote:
ORIGINAL: neonhomer
More info... Popped the pushrod tubes off to check the pushrods. The front intake (I think, the pushrod closest to the intake port on the front cylinder.) pushrod spun really easy. No play, but really easy to spin with one finger. Others required a finger & thumb.
You did rotate the engine so the lifter was fully down (valve closed) before you checked each one didn't you? If you did not do that, you findings don't mean anything. Of course, to do this "check" you gotta wait a while after you shut the engine off to let the lifters bleed down.
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2000 Road King Classic. Andrews 26G cams, SE Stage I, DFO, V&H True Duals with Samson Fishtail Mufflers.
1977 XLH, Nearly bone stock.
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 5/3/2008 10:04:57 PM
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neonhomer
Posts: 96
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From: Volusia County, FL
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I did that with the engine overnight cold. Yes, I pulled the plugs and rotated the motor to where both lifters were down (in compression stroke at TDC).
The dealer called me today... said the bike is ready. They had two guys go over it and they said they couldn't find anything wrong. I am assuming they didn't go into the motor, though. <Shrug? This noise is just driving me up the freakin wall. It makes the bike sound like crap.
I guess I am going to invest in a Bailey spring (if I can find one.. J&P sells some kind of spring for the TC88 that is supposed to increase oil pressure...), and maybe the adjustable pushrods. Maybe I can get rid of a majority of the noise. My next move is to try synthetic oil. Wonder if I can find 50w in a synthetic? Either that or it's Amsoil 20w50...
I had a thread on another board that went like this. It was about rebuilding roofs in popup campers. I just kept adding info and adding info with no one posting. It's now considered required reading when someone is considering redoing their roof in their popup!
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NeonHomer
2004 Road King Police FLHP/I
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 5/3/2008 10:33:09 PM
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chaos5
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My sporty has a lot of ticking at lower RPM's. I changed to Mobil 1 V-twin at the last oil change. It still has the ticking, but it's not as bad.
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 5/4/2008 6:32:30 PM
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neonhomer
Posts: 96
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From: Volusia County, FL
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Well, went and got it back today. Still taps like a bitch. I don't know...
I did an oil change to 50w... I think the next step is to go to 20w50 synthetic and the spring. Either that or it's a swap to adjustable pushrods... Bad thing is if I do it myself, then it will void the warranty....
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NeonHomer
2004 Road King Police FLHP/I
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 5/6/2008 4:24:44 PM
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neonhomer
Posts: 96
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From: Volusia County, FL
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Y`know, it just dawned on me... The service manager said they were going to check my cam tensioners, and he never said anything about if they did or not...
Looks like I need to... but too afraid of pulling the exhaust... (never fails.. I pull an exhaust and break a stud...)
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NeonHomer
2004 Road King Police FLHP/I
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 5/6/2008 5:59:37 PM
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2005UltraNC
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Can you pin point where the noise is coming from? Assume the oil level is okay. What do the spark plugs look like?
Cam tensoniers check is at 30,000 miles - this usually isn't a ticking noise.
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 5/6/2008 7:44:27 PM
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neonhomer
Posts: 96
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From: Volusia County, FL
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Oil is okay, and fresh. 50w HD oil and filter. Spark plugs have 1000 miles on them, and are okay.
Sound is most noticable when riding, where it comes up from between the tank and windshield. When off the bike and at idle, it sounds like it is coming from the front rocker cover. No weird noises from the cam cover. Putting a mechanics stephescope up to the rocker cover you can hear a defined "click" in a rythym with the rpm of the motor, like there is excessive clearance in the valvetrain.
Unfortunatley, I can't seem to get a dealer to agree with me and go into the top end of the motor. Even to take the rocker covers off and check. I have the extended warranty, so they would get paid, but they all seem like they don't want to be bothered with working on my bike.
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NeonHomer
2004 Road King Police FLHP/I
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RE: Engine seems to tap TOO much... - 5/7/2008 7:14:54 AM
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shoveltrev
Posts: 28
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I'm to the point with mine i can live with the valve train noise, its the "Nugga nugga nockin noise it makes at around that 2500 rpm mystical point that these engines start ringin like a bell. mines stock marelli efi how do i even check the timing? the 2500 rpm knock gets quieter as the engine warms up leads me to believe its piston slapp or wrist pin? im glad i bought this bike cheap. thanks trev
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