Compensator Question
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RE: Compensator Question - 4/16/2008 6:50:11 PM
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rbabos
Posts: 1459
Joined: 3/16/2007
From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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No it's toast. Actually the spring pack is garbage. There is no way you should be able to move it by hand in rotation or in and out. The comp assembly itself may still be tight on the engine but the cam is not being pushed against the sprocket. A new spring pack is in order. There may also be damage to the lobes and ramps from running in this condition as well. If you take it apart make sure you put paint marks on mating cam/sprocket lobes and pockets so it can go back the same way.
Ron
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RE: Compensator Question - 4/16/2008 7:53:41 PM
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JayDee5150
Posts: 50
Joined: 2/20/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rbabos
No it's toast. Actually the spring pack is garbage. There is no way you should be able to move it by hand in rotation or in and out. The comp assembly itself may still be tight on the engine but the cam is not being pushed against the sprocket. A new spring pack is in order. There may also be damage to the lobes and ramps from running in this condition as well. If you take it apart make sure you put paint marks on mating cam/sprocket lobes and pockets so it can go back the same way.
Ron
Hi Ron, thank you for this info...even though it appears my bike is broke and I’ll be spending money, it's almost a relief in a weird way to know that the problem has likely been found.
I have another question for ya if you don't mind...when you say damage to the lobes and ramps...can you explain what these are, what they do, are the a part of the compensator assembly?
It looks like I will be trying to do the work myself if possible...I called HD and I was wrong regarding warranty...mine did run out so it looks like I am on my own with this one. From your experience, is this something that can be done at home with the tools and a service manual? Or should I bear down and take it to a good shop to get it repaired.
< Message edited by JayDee5150 -- 4/16/2008 8:32:37 PM >
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RE: Compensator Question - 4/17/2008 11:12:59 AM
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t150vej
Posts: 181
Joined: 12/23/2005
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You'll probably need an air impact to get the nut off. If you have, or can borrow a large air tank (like for pumping up a flat tire) and plumb even a cheap air wrench to it, that'll probably do to get the nut off. (that's what I use)
You'll know all about the "cams" when that falls off. Just look at them and check for abrupt high spots on the surfaces. They don't wear bad in an oil primary, by running a bad compensator "could" cause a bit of abnormal wear.
Also, use a pick and/or tiny wire brush to clean out the dried up Loctite from the threads inside the nut. And apply Loctite before re-assembly.
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RE: Compensator Question - 4/17/2008 3:20:41 PM
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rbabos
Posts: 1459
Joined: 3/16/2007
From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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If you use a sprocket locking tool (flat bar) the comp bolt will come off without too much trouble. Once the comp is off you will see the ramps in the gear part and the lobes that mate to it on the cam. In a good spring pack these will rub and always be under pressure. In your case, look for impact damage near the start of the ramp since yours was not returning to its neutral point being so slack. You will see what I'm talking about.
Ron
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RE: Compensator Question - 4/18/2008 12:03:21 AM
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JayDee5150
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Ok, I drained the primary fluid and pulled the outer primary cover off.
The compensator nut was indeed loose...I could loosen it up with my fingers.
I backed off the compensator nut and pulled the assembly off. It doesn't appear chewed up...the spring pack in the outer assemble is there, but can't tell if its good or bad.
I'm going to wait on going any farther on the tear down until I get my service manuel. It should be comming any day now. Then it's back to business.
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< Message edited by JayDee5150 -- 4/18/2008 12:16:21 AM >
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RE: Compensator Question - 4/18/2008 5:43:45 AM
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rbabos
Posts: 1459
Joined: 3/16/2007
From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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For some strange reason I thought we were talking about the 07 + compensator. From the pictures it is not. In your case it's a nut, not a bolt as in 07. The basic operation is the same as well as the defects should they occur. It does seem from all the reading I've done that this model has a nasty habit of loosening the nut. Don't ride it any more in that condition as some nasty damage will occur to the rotor too. Check the splines on the altenator rotor for still being tight, and overall condition of comp. Maybe all you will need to do is clean all old loctite off the nut and shaft and just retorque it. Do a search on the nut assembly as to machining some off or adding a washer on the outside to prevent bottoming out and not tightening the whole assembly up enough before final assembly. Do a trial nut spin on, and snug it until you feel resistance. Use a small wrench and no loctite at this point. There should be at least 1 or more revolution needed to actually bottom the nut to the tight state. This range is where the nut is compressing the spring pack. Work the nut back and forth and you will see what's going on here. If the nut just goes to the wall, without this resistance, the pack is crap. At least in your case, you can just buy the springpack where us 07+ owners get boned into having to buy the whole altenator rotor which has the pack in it. Sounds like you should be lucky enough to just do the retorque with red loctite, but check all the other things I mentioned so you can do the job right and one time, which will be more than most dealers can do.
Ron
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RE: Compensator Question - 4/18/2008 7:49:11 PM
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KBFXDLI
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From: Cleveland, Ohio USA
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If your bike is a 2003 to 2005 you want to get HD service bulletin M-1170 for the correct compensating sprocket tightening procedure. Apparently you torque to 75ft lbs and then turn the nut tight another 45-50 degrees. The bulletin is pretty specific so get a copy if your bike is one of those.
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RE: Compensator Question - 4/18/2008 8:46:09 PM
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JayDee5150
Posts: 50
Joined: 2/20/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KBFXDLI
If your bike is a 2003 to 2005 you want to get HD service bulletin M-1170 for the correct compensating sprocket tightening procedure. Apparently you torque to 75ft lbs and then turn the nut tight another 45-50 degrees. The bulletin is pretty specific so get a copy if your bike is one of those.
Thanks for the great info RBABOS and KBFXDLI, I just got my 2004 Softail (my bike is an 04 Heritage) service manual in the mail today...gonna break it out and start reading up.
I'll post pictures as I go for anybody who wants to view them. I'm really hoping I caught this before I did any serious damage. I did ride the bike another 50 miles after I started hearing noise...but I really tried to baby her back home those 50 miles as best I could.
I'll definitely be pulling the clutch basked, compensator, and chain off so that I can get a good cleaning on those cam threads. I looked in the compensator nut and there was plenty of lock tight in there, I’m thinking it wasn't put on when the cam threads were completely clean.
I'll make sure to check the rotor and stator while it's apart as well.
I was wondering, is there any "meaningful" way to check the condition of cam bearing where the compensator failure was behind the stator at this point? Or would I need to tear the bike down farther to get a realistic view of the bearing?
As for the service bulletin on proper tightening of the compensator nut, I'm downloading it as I type!
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RE: Compensator Question - 4/19/2008 2:13:18 PM
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rbabos
Posts: 1459
Joined: 3/16/2007
From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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The cam bearing is on the other side. As for the crank bearing, it will be fine. You didn't run it long enought to likely destroy any of the parts. It is quite possible the threads were not cleaned prior to loctite if you could spin the nut by your fingers.
Ron
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RE: Compensator Question - 4/19/2008 4:30:48 PM
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JayDee5150
Posts: 50
Joined: 2/20/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rbabos
The cam bearing is on the other side. As for the crank bearing, it will be fine. You didn't run it long enought to likely destroy any of the parts. It is quite possible the threads were not cleaned prior to loctite if you could spin the nut by your fingers.
Ron
Oops...I guarentee after this break down i'll never mix cam bearing and crank bearing up again!
I'll be sure to clean all the old locktite off of both parts and spray the hell out of the cam threads and the compensator nutt threads with break cleaner before I put the compensator back together.
I've been reading up on other posts about getting rid of the compensator all together and going with a sproket only. I think most of that talk was regarding touring bikes with IDS. Can a set up like that work for a softail? Is it recommended?
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RE: Compensator Question - 4/19/2008 5:11:28 PM
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Dalton
Posts: 5968
Joined: 2/12/2007
From: Northeast Ohio
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The only reason for going with a sprocket without a compensator is that no-one makes one with a compensator for the 07-08 models. You will be fine if you just re-install, locktite and torque properly.
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RE: Compensator Question - 4/19/2008 5:59:14 PM
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rbabos
Posts: 1459
Joined: 3/16/2007
From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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I also have a softail and pondered the thought of direct. Don't think it will hurt anything but I'm not sure I could handle the consistant pulsing of the powertrain from a ride quality standpoint . A comp or IDS will at least ease that sensation to the most part. Since I've seem to have improved the operation in my 07 comp, I'm leaving it in for now to see if it will stay that way. Side benifit was I no longer have tranny clatter, starter knock and no slinky sound in the primary. This is good as no ids for softails anyway.
Ron
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RE: Compensator Question - 5/3/2008 9:52:06 AM
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JayDee5150
Posts: 50
Joined: 2/20/2008
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Ok, I finally got some work done on the bike. I pulled the primary drive assembly out of the bike and had a good look around.
Everything looked ok except for the rotor. The vibration took a toll on the rotor splines and they buggered up a bit. Luckily, no major damage to the crank splines...some slight marks from the vibration, but all in all they look ok. I am going to get a new rotor from the stealer today and pick up a shim to increase the thread bite on the compensator nut. I got all my loctite stuff together except for the primer spray.
Below are some new pic's of the work in progress. Check out the picture of the rotor, I set two 90 degree picks on top of it. That’s what I used to remove the rotor from the stator...no need to purchase one of those rotor pullers...it came off pretty easy with the picks...just be sure to apply equal pressure when you pull it.
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< Message edited by JayDee5150 -- 5/3/2008 2:33:30 PM >
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RE: Compensator Question - 5/3/2008 1:56:07 PM
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rbabos
Posts: 1459
Joined: 3/16/2007
From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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Yup, those rotor splines are toast. Sounds like you are doing it right. Most people don't even know about the primer part. Man, does that make a difference in how loctite works. You should have a better than factory install when done.
Ron
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