TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 4/20/2008 7:00:15 AM
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rbabos
Posts: 1459
Joined: 3/16/2007
From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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I've got V&H BSS with quiet baffles and SE Heavy breather on my 07 softail and map #401. The decel function is turned off. No popping at heavy and medium decel. The only pops that I get are in first or second gear on really light decel mainly when coasting down a hill at low rpms. This to me makes the decel function to not apply as setting it below 1500 rpms may cause response problems. At the moment the afr is in the 13.7 range for these rpms. Popping is caused from the perfect fuel ratio to air causing it to light up in the pipe so you have two choices to screw the mix up enough to stop it. Rich or leaner. In my case the pops are so light and intermitant that I probably won't bother, but setting the rpm area that mine pops at, which is from 960-1500 to about 13.2 in the afr maps would probably cure it. Runs nice and cool in traffic now so I probably won't go leaner instead of richer in this range. I'm quite happy with this map otherwise. Have not looked at your map to compare the differences but it seems like a lot of bithching with the map #s you mentioned from others in regards to popping that trying a different map may be in order. You could use the AFR override to determine the ratio needed to stop the popping as in 13.2 or whatever accoss the board and then edit the maps where the problem rpms were from previous experience, and then turn the override off. The override function , to me seems like a good diagnostic tool, but practical for normal driving as it takes the autotune out of the loop.
Ron
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 4/20/2008 1:45:55 PM
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rbabos
Posts: 1459
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From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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If you had success with 13.5 with the afr override on, then it's telling you that this mixture will cure popping in those rpms. If the afr vrs tps maps were changed in the popping range to 13.5 and the afr override turned off it should have the same effect. Being close to cruise rpms the mileage will suck at that setting. Timing may have considerable effect on popping as well, so a different map with different timing blocks, may stop popping even if the afr is the same as you have now. Lots of variables here and even the back pressure in the pipes will dictate mixture and timing changes to stop the pop. Other than the pipes our setups are not all that different. Why not give map #401 a shot. Gives me a woody every time ride with it.
Ron
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 4/20/2008 4:09:46 PM
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ToBeFrank
Posts: 270
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Koppster, listen to Ron, he's right. You need to richen the area where you're getting the popping, but only do it below 14 degrees throttle. It won't affect your mileage much at all.
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 4/20/2008 8:45:38 PM
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rok312
Posts: 242
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Illinois
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I had the exact same issue as you - I even have an almost identical setup. I have an '07 Street Bob with Big Sucker and Bub 7 2 into 2 pipes. I also am using map 393.
I just cured my popping today.
Here is what I did.
1) I listened to ToBeFrank via a post he did awhile back (essentially saying what he just said again above).
http://www.hdforums.com/fb.asp?m=1936730
On your AFR vs TPS @ RPM pages, from 1280 RPM all the way to your rev limiter, set TPSs 14 and below rich. I have mine set to 12.5 AFR.
2) I lowered the Accel Fuel default value of 10 down to 6. I was also getting a subtle pop once and awhile when accelerating. This took care of that, and I didn't loose any throttle response.
Weird thing is, I didn't expect the above to work right away - figured I'd have to get a few sessions in before it would show any signs of improvement. But I didn't get a single pop immediately. I rode for a bit, stopped for gas, rode some more, stopped and recycled the ignition, rode some more. No more popping - and trust me, I tried to reproduce them.
Give the above two things a try - unless you have an exhaust leak, I bet this will take care of your issues.
ToBeFrank - THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 4/27/2008 7:10:33 AM
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rbabos
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From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Koppster
Ron/All,
I'm restraining my woody for a few more miles; however,......I loaded 401 yesterday and so far (25 miles) no pops or backfires. I'm going to put some more miles on it today and will follow up with the results. Keep your fingers crossed for me.
Rickster
Rickster: Would be interesting to compare notes on this map with similar setups. Things like cold and hot start, and general performace.
Ron
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 4/27/2008 2:55:53 PM
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rbabos
Posts: 1459
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From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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On mine, when it starts cold it's usually on the first revolution, unless I've cycled the key more than once, which adds more than normal cranking fuel. Each cold start starts normal and in about 5 seconds it gets lumpy sounding. About 5 more seconds it clears again to smooth idle slighty faster than the hot idle of 960 rpm. Once hot the idle is stable and steady but during the warmup it tends to slighty vary it's speed. Could use a bit of tweaking in the idle speed vrs temp map so it drops to normal idle sooner, but havn't found it annouying enough to bother with. The stock unit was worse in both cold and hot. Sometime when a hot start was done after sitting around for a few minutes it would start fast, drop to normal, and then go back up to fast just after taking off. After a minute it would go back to normal, but would make me look like I didn't know how to use the throttle. Tmax hot starts are normal and predictable. By the way, do you have less comp knock with the tmax When you start the engine than the stock ecm? Most people refer to it as starter knock. I have none any more and I'm not sure if it was the comp mod or the tmax as both were done the same time.
Ron
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 4/27/2008 7:37:52 PM
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ColoSpgsMark
Posts: 60
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Map #403 is doing well on mine and similar attributes that Rbabos mentioned. The more miles I put on, the less I even notice an occassional pop on light throttle, low rpm coast.
I initially tried a BS intake, but was suspect of the quality it it. I went with the SE model for the '08 and it improved it a bit more - must have altered the air flow a little.
Mark
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 5/3/2008 9:50:12 AM
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rbabos
Posts: 1459
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From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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The 400 series maps seem to be good for the fairly stock setups. Don't know why more people don't use them? Glad it was successful in your config.
Ron
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 5/3/2008 1:56:08 PM
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rok312
Posts: 242
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From: Illinois
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After reading some of the posts in this thread, I decided to give map #403 a try. As mentioned in my earlier post above, I was feeling pretty good about map 393, but was having to deal with some popping issues among other things. I got it tuned such that they went away, however, I began to think about the fact that 393 was built for an FLH with Rhinehart True Duals. Those pipes, although 2-2's, aren't exactly the same as Dyna pipes - especially in length from front to back. Plus, a bagger, despite having the same motor, isn't exactly the same as a Dyna. Since 403 was built using a Dyna, I thought maybe it would be worth giving it a try. I figured since I saved the changes I made to 393, I could always go back. Anyway, in the process of remapping over to 403, I took a look at the differences between the two maps. For one thing, the timing maps between the two have quite a few differences. The AFR maps weren't 'drastically' different, but 403 seemed to have a softer curve to them through all RPMs.
After uploading 403 and going through all the initialization routines, I took it for a spin. Right away, I started b1tching to myself that I didn't go with this map to begin with. It ran great at all RPMs, no sluggishness at lower speeds in lower gears like I had with map 393, and best of all, no popping whatsoever. Can't wait to see how much more it improves at it tunes over time!
The reason I overlooked map 403 was because of the exhaust setup, being that the map was built with stock head pipes and slipon mufflers. I have a full system. However, in hindsight, I think the fact that the map was built with a Dyna, with 2-2 pipes, matching size/length exhaust at least 'close' to what I have in a full system, was more important than "slipon vs full system" and made all the difference.
Sounds like Zippers typically recommends 393 for Dyna riders with setups such as those of us posting in this thread - they ought to rethink that from the feedback I'm seeing above, along with the experience I've had. 401/403 maps...good stuff!
Thanks, Koppster and rbabos, for keeping this thread updated with thoughts/results.
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 5/3/2008 7:50:13 PM
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harley_jeff
Posts: 98
Joined: 8/2/2007
From: Northern California
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Yeah, I don't get it either. I loaded #393 after reading this forum after I installed the Reinhardts on my Dyna and it really pops. Firmware v4.5 helped a little. I asked Randy about 401/403 and he didn't know anything about these affecting decel pop. I rode today and noticed that I get the popping at exactly 2500 rpm when I close the throttle. Maybe I will try a 400 series map. I have a 2007 Dyna with 2-2 Bub/Reinhardt staggered and of course hi-flow intake.
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 5/3/2008 7:55:54 PM
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harley_jeff
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From: Northern California
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Just looked at 401 and 403 and what exactly is the difference between them?
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 5/3/2008 8:18:34 PM
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rok312
Posts: 242
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From: Illinois
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harley_jeff
Just looked at 401 and 403 and what exactly is the difference between them?
401 was developed on an FXST (softail) and 403 was developed on an FXD (Dyna). Other than that, they look almost the same. Don't think one could go wrong trying either one.
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 5/4/2008 9:00:37 AM
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harley_jeff
Posts: 98
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From: Northern California
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I will try 403 and let you know. It is a real pain to load a new map so I will do it eventually. What I don't understand is with auto-tune, the computer should optimize itself, right? So in theory I could have map xyz loaded and it wouldn't matter because after enough miles the computer should have optimized its own map, right?
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 5/4/2008 2:21:34 PM
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rbabos
Posts: 1459
Joined: 3/16/2007
From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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I can see the auto tune smooth the maps out, but not rewrite them to your bike. It's not that smart. Rick, the pops you describe are similar to mine and the same light load situation. If you can identify the upper rpm and throttle position, drop the afrs from that map down to at least the 256 rpm map in the area of 13.2-13.5 and it should clear up. Presently it's in the 13.7 range if I'm not mistaken. It won't take much to stop it. Doubt the final drive had anything to do with it. Probably different weather and atmospheric pressures had an influence on it.
Ron
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 5/4/2008 6:15:12 PM
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harley_jeff
Posts: 98
Joined: 8/2/2007
From: Northern California
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OK, I loaded #403 and what a difference! I only rode around the block, but I immediately could see a difference in the engine. Smoother idle, better/faster start, better acceleration. Also, in the basic settings I left decel fuel = 0, meaning no decel pop software control. And even with the decel=off, I could not produce any pops like before. I will know for sure on the next long ride, but so far so good! If I get some popping, I will set decel fuel = 1 and see how that does.
One thing I noticed in the basic settings, there are differences between map #393 and #403.
< Message edited by harley_jeff -- 5/4/2008 7:55:17 PM >
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 5/4/2008 7:25:29 PM
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rbabos
Posts: 1459
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From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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I see there is a difference between 401 and 393 in cranking fuel , idle rpm, and home position. Don't know why considering it's the same power plants and these differences mainly apply to starting and idle. Two degrees dif in timing at startup may play a factor in this, but not likely. Other than the 393 having a slighty higher idle speed, don't think you'd notice otherwise. 401 and 403 are very similar overall but the 393 is considerably different in many areas.
Ron
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 5/4/2008 10:38:58 PM
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labfreak
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Just want to add a simple chec: Be sre you don't have ANY exhaust leaks at your heads, or muffler clamps, you Will get popping on decel if you do...just a thought.
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 5/5/2008 4:17:55 PM
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rbabos
Posts: 1459
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From: Woodstock, Ont , Can
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Koppster: Just went out for a quick ride before the rain. It just amazes me when I twist the throttle on how well it runs. Tried to figure out what rpm it would pop at and it seems like around no more than 1300. Probably closer to 1200 as a guess. It burbles more than anything and the odd time I might get a small pop. Not sure, but it may have diminished with driving to some extent as I had to make several attempts at it. Auto tune or not, I don't think it can tune it out, but stranger things can happen. Must have been the type of weather or something. I will also wait and see as it's no biggy anyway. Hell even if we teak out what pops there are and maybe later increase the mpg, there will be something else to work at. That's just human nature. On an other note, have you noticed how cool your engine runs with tmax?
Ron
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 5/9/2008 8:32:22 PM
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harley_jeff
Posts: 98
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From: Northern California
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OK. Map 403 rocks! I have the firmware v4.5 Decel feature still turned off and the bike is like night and day compared to map #393. Very slight pop with 403, kinda nice, actually. Map #393 with decel pop turned on was aweful. The bike really runs a lot better, too. I love the way it accelerates and idles and starts, etc.
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RE: TMax: Still Got Pops on Decel - 5/10/2008 11:23:57 AM
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Eddie4Harley
Posts: 67
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From: Holland (with the wooden shoes and windmills)
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Hello boy's,
I just build in the T-Max, with the new Samson D2-971B sinister (ceramic) black Street slashers, on my '07 StreetBob.
I loaded (recommended by Zippers) map 393,and went for a one hour test-drive.
I got pops on decel to!
After reading this topic, I'll will load map 403 and take the bike for an other spin.
I will let you know the results.....................
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