No spark at spark plugs
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No spark at spark plugs - 4/21/2008 9:09:35 PM
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zenon9
Posts: 36
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline
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No spark at spark plugs - nothing acrosss the gap set at .040 and grounded to the motor.
S&S 96 cc inch evo with S&S carb
1. Difficulty starting at times
2. Sometimes while idling the bike will start to run on one spark plug
3. let the bike cool for a minute and restart it may go back to running on two plugs.
4. out riding today and it went to one plug - made it back home
5. bike will not start and there is no spark at either spark plug- front or rear.
What other test should I try or any suggestions ?????/
96 inch S&S evo with super stock module ignition-single fire coil with S&S carb & VOES
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 4/21/2008 10:11:32 PM
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megawatt
Posts: 297
Joined: 12/7/2007
Status: offline
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Check for bad connections in the wiring for the ignition circuit (from the battery all the way through to the spark plugs). Check your coil for continuity and impedence (ohms) on the primary and secondary sides. If it ain't either of those two, it's probably your module. If you have, or have access to, another known good coil of the same type, you could try that on the bike. Same thing with the module. Not too many people have spare modules laying around since they are quite expensive. Try everything else before blaming the module.
I had a coil fail intermittently and when it went away completely, it took the module with it (at least, they both had failed, I assume the coil killed the module). It can be very difficult to trouble shoot intermittent electrical problems. You will need a volt/ohm meter. There are inexpensive ones at Radio Shack or Harbor Freight.
< Message edited by megawatt -- 4/23/2008 11:00:15 AM >
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 4/22/2008 9:37:15 PM
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zenon9
Posts: 36
Joined: 11/5/2007
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How do you check a coil for continuity?.
Voltmeter - but what do you do to test
1. Primary wiring test ??
2. Secondary wiring test ??
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 4/23/2008 3:48:18 AM
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Neil Ivanovich
Posts: 10
Joined: 1/30/2008
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What about the VOES??? Would that cause this?
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 4/23/2008 10:46:37 AM
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megawatt
Posts: 297
Joined: 12/7/2007
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zenon9,
I am assuming that the S&S super stock ignition is a single fire type with a 3 ohm coil. The coil should have three primary wire terminals. Mark the wires for which terminal they are connected to and remove the wiring from the coil. Using an ohmmeter that can read single digit resistance, place one lead on the "common" primary terminal. This terminal should have the switched 12 volt power from the ignition switch via the run/stop switch on your handlebars or maybe one of those ignition relays that bypasses all that wiring up at the handlebars. There may be another wire on it that goes to the ignition module for its 12 volt power supply.
The other two primary wire terminals are for the individual cylinders coil primary windings and they should have one wire each going to the ignition module. Place the other meter lead on one of those terminals so you are taking a reading across the "common" to one of the other primary terminals. It should read 3 ohms give or take a couple of tenths of an ohm (assuming it is 3 ohm coil). Check the other primary winding by leaving the one lead on the "common" and switch the other lead to the other primary terminal. You should get about the same reading for both primary windings.
To check the secondary windings, leave the one lead on the "common" primary winding and insert the other lead into one of the spark plug wire towers. You should get a reading in thousands of ohms on this test (lots of windings on the secondary side). Move the lead from the one tower to the other tower. You should get about the same reading.
If you can't get the meters lead to reach into the spark plug wire tower, get a jumper wire with alligator clips on each end and a small screwdriver. Using the jumper wire clipped between the meter lead and the screwdriver, use the screwdriver to reach the connection down in the tower. While you're in there poking around, check the connections down in the tower for corrosion and clean them as necessary.
If you get balanced readings on the primary and secondary sides of the coil, it is probably okay. This isn't a guarantee that the coil is good because my bad coil had intermittent good connections...remember what I said about how hard it is to troubleshoot intermittent electrical problems.
Whilst you have the meter out and you are checking stuff, check your spark plug wires for continuity/resistance. Wiggle them around as you check 'em to make sure they are not opening up in certain positions. If they read about the same resistance, they are probably okay and your problem is either wiring in the ignition circuit, a bad module (I hope not), or possibly bad spark plugs. Run (as in physically check) the wires from the module all the way to where they connect to the other parts of the ignition to make sure they are not shorting to ground somewhere. The smallest pinch or place where it can vibrate can cut or wear through wire insulation and cause a wire to short to ground. This includes the tachometer trigger wire from the module.
This brings us to the VOES and Neil Ivanovich's question. I don't see where a shorted wire to the VOES or a bad VOES could cause the ignition to fail. It could cause the ignition system to switch between the advanced and the retarded ignition curves if it was shorting to ground and that would affect performance but I just don't see it killing the ignition.
Good luck man.
< Message edited by megawatt -- 4/24/2008 9:06:11 AM >
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 4/23/2008 7:04:36 PM
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megawatt
Posts: 297
Joined: 12/7/2007
Status: offline
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zenon9,
It would probably be a good idea to check your coil cold first and if it checks okay, check it again after heating it with a hair dryer.
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 4/24/2008 6:49:30 AM
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zenon9
Posts: 36
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline
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OK, Thanks everyone I will be running these test today - Thursday
Will get back with you tonight with the results.
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 4/24/2008 6:21:49 PM
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zenon9
Posts: 36
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline
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Hi Guys
Well the Bad news is I have not ideas was wrong with this bike.
That leads me to the Good news - which is - The bike is firing on every hit at the moment.
OK - as the story goes - I removed the gas tank and removed the coil from the get go- no messing around with those tight spots unless it's a female.
took coil completely offf bike to run coil test- primary to neg front = 3.1 ohm and same with rear
In testing secondary-I was lost at ohms setting 20k = 9.1 and at ohms setting 200k= 9.1 at 2000k = 009 so I have no idea what that was all about in testing each plug tower.
Next I check my starter booster relay - switch on and all that stuff = OK 12.93 volts at postive terminal and negative terminal - so that wasn,t it.
At this point I ran the wires - so I clipped almost every wire tie that was routing the nose cone sensor wires to the coil. I saw 2 ( two ) spot that concerned me so I placed electrical tape over one and left the second wiring location free of frame contact. Performed a spark plug test and was amazed the both cylinders were firing. So next I jimmie rigid my gas feed with tubing and about 16 oz of gas - hit the switch and there you go - fire in hog , fire in hog
I will put it back topgether later but I still DO NOT KNOW the real issue.
OK -one other observation - I have just replaced the stator - my fault on this one - did not lock down the compensator nut tight enough - so the rotor got wracked - rplaced the rotor but did not used proper spacing disc (should have put it back the same way I found it - OK , my Bad ).
So I fixed my Bad- here is the rub - when the stator was grounded - the tach gauge would jump around like crazy - fixed the stator and the tach gauze was better but alittle erratic still - now after going through this last no spark fix - the tach gauze is back to normal.
So - I am assuming the problem was a GROUNDED WIRE to FRAME - and I think it was the tach wire making contact beneath the gas tank R/T vibration - but I have no real evidence.
Stay tuned - I will let you know after I re-assemble and run the bike course.
Thanks Guys - and Yes I had a few today - I mean after ALL - this Harley thing
Sometimes makes you want to Cuss.
Megawatt - run that secondary coil testing by me again or can I get 40,000 ohms reading on a digital voltmeter.
I would like to know for future reference.
Thanks again - Joka
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 4/24/2008 8:40:15 PM
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megawatt
Posts: 297
Joined: 12/7/2007
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Your secondary side reading of 9100 ohms is the same as the reading I got on a known good coil I have so I'd say you're golden on the coil as long as it is consistant. Did you try the coil test again after heating it with a hair dryer?
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 4/24/2008 9:14:16 PM
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zenon9
Posts: 36
Joined: 11/5/2007
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No - I just stopped after the bike fired up
I get your point - but at this time I have a strong feeling it was a ground fault from an exposed wire beneath the gas tank.
I will let you know if I run into any problem with spark at the plugs again.
Thanks
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 4/30/2008 4:10:08 PM
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zenon9
Posts: 36
Joined: 11/5/2007
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I put everything back together and ran the bike again - bike was running great after my careful inspection of wiring - so i am just rolling along man - all happy and everything - same thing happens again.
So - I limp on back home on one ( 1) cylinder - recharged the battery and ran the wires again.
This time I looked at the Tach Gauze and it is a little irratice - so I am sure it is not undre the gas tank. I drop on down to the low engd of the frame - goose the gas and wiggle the wires - Looks like the wires out of the nose cone were zip tied to the frame with very little play or allowance for movement of the rubbber mounted motor.
Cut the zip tie - gave a little slack for movement.
Tach gauze settle out - bike firing on two ( 2) cylinders and i am going riding again.
I will let you know when I get it hot again - because that is when the problem always pops up.
Stay tuned.
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 4/30/2008 4:31:08 PM
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sqdealgeorge
Posts: 279
Joined: 12/26/2007
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I'd opt for the ign mod
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 4/30/2008 7:32:19 PM
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85FXSB
Posts: 40
Joined: 4/9/2008
Status: offline
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I agree with sqdealgeorge , if its not a bad wire out of the cone, its heat and vibration building up to your run NO run failure... cause most likely module.
hope you get it figured out, riding is funner than wrenching.........
John
_____________________________
Ride on
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 4/30/2008 11:37:17 PM
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zenon9
Posts: 36
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline
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OK - You Guys have been around the block a time or two.
Ran the bike about 30 miles - goosed it for about the last 5 miles of that run and as you know - here comes that same old problem again.
So I limped about 5 miles to my stop point and play with the wires. No cahnge - still missing- let it cool down for about half an hour - still missing - so I rode about 5 miles to my long stop/ resting spot and set it up for 2 hours in rainy conditions.
Bike fired up and ran excellent on two cylinders all the way home = 47 miles.
Now - you go figure - what ??? is happening when this bike gets hot
I am goosing it such that wiring is affected or I am getting a fault due to component failure
R/T heat in coil or nose cone module ???
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 5/1/2008 7:00:47 PM
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jbhoyle
Posts: 153
Joined: 9/17/2007
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Fought the same problem for 6 month's on 95 flh w/Evo. Had Dyna-S single fire with a Crane 3 ohm coil. Everytime I would go to check things out, it would start running right. Always dropped the rear cylinder out, then pick it back up. Would test coil, wiring, pickups, etc. Everything would show good. Finally it died completely, easy to find problem then. Replaced coil, been trouble free for a year. Now as soon as Crane can get the HI4 modules back in production, I'm going to get rid of the Dyna-S and go with the HI4.
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 5/2/2008 11:57:43 PM
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zenon9
Posts: 36
Joined: 11/5/2007
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I will replace coil in Am- give me about 2 days to run the bike
Stay tuned
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 5/3/2008 5:30:51 PM
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zenon9
Posts: 36
Joined: 11/5/2007
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Replaced the coil this AM with a new one - bike ran fine for about 3 hours - then I had a five ( 5 ) minutes episode of the same misssing - finally it stopped and started hittting on both cylinders again. It has ran fine/ OK through the past several hours - goosing and all.
I will change the spark plugs next.
I am still unsure about the missing.
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 5/6/2008 12:39:01 PM
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zenon9
Posts: 36
Joined: 11/5/2007
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Plug wires are fairly new - replaced spark plugs last night - put in some platinum I had laying
around the garage Interesting thing I found - book spec for plug torgue is 18 ft lbs to 26 ft lbs
I torque them in at 12 ft lbs - I do not want to strip the plug holes.
The front plug seemed to have been lightly torqued about 6 ft lbs - I think because of the
location under tank I have been reluctant to pull on the plug wrench - so I may have been
getting raw air into the front cylinder by way of the spark plug sealing ring when it got hot.
Stay Tuned
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 5/7/2008 1:17:55 PM
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zenon9
Posts: 36
Joined: 11/5/2007
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Does anyone know the torque spec on the spark plugs?
My book said 18 to 26 ft lbs.
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 5/12/2008 9:42:03 PM
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zenon9
Posts: 36
Joined: 11/5/2007
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Checked with S&S Technician - plugs are torqued at 11 to 18 Ft Lbs.
The plugs were no it - ran bike again with new plugs - no change - after 10 miles it started missing - sprayed ignition module with DUST OFF - I think misssing went away for a few minutes.
I am waiting on a new ignition module from S&S
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RE: No spark at spark plugs - 5/19/2008 10:15:36 AM
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zenon9
Posts: 36
Joined: 11/5/2007
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OK - I am back again
Here is the verdict
For those of you who said coil - not quite - the coil was weak, it did not meet specifications but I don,t think that killed the cylinder.
For those of you said ignition module - you get an A+ - replaced the ignition module yesterday - I could tell an immediate difference in the sound - ran bike abut 100 miles.
NO PROBLEMS
Thanks for all the information and advice. All repairs were completed and all repairs were necessary. I should be good for about 2 years.
After all - we know it is the HEAT that kills the hog
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