My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results.
Login  | |
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/6/2008 4:44:28 AM
|
|
|
murphdog
Posts: 721
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: Mauldin, SC
Status: offline
|
I'd like to take a look at your file. You can attach it to a post if you change the file extension from .mt6 to .txt.
What mufflers do you have?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/6/2008 6:07:56 AM
|
|
|
Doc 1
Posts: 1866
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
I'd like to see it too...send it to my email adress at the bottom of my post.
Thanks
_____________________________
HDMD Tuning Center
EFI Training
352.242.9616
hdmd88@yahoo.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/6/2008 6:44:04 AM
|
|
|
whittlebeast
Posts: 286
Joined: 3/2/2007
Status: offline
|
Could someone in the know please explain the logic on the hidden table AF_PE_Fuel_Air_Ratio table on his setup? note: His tuner started with 176AE104-A1.MT6 that has the same issue.
I wonder if his tuner was pulling his hair out on that one.
AW
< Message edited by whittlebeast -- 5/6/2008 7:17:39 AM >
_____________________________
When the racers get done doing the impossible the engineers get a chance to correct the errors in the model.
***My other addiction, running Megasquirt EFI ***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXH4WWhqZ_s
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/6/2008 8:13:35 AM
|
|
|
TickTock
Posts: 631
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline
|
Funny that the don't do race tuning yet their heading on the dyno sheet says "Motor City Race Shop".
I'm just sayin'...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/6/2008 8:40:25 AM
|
|
|
Doc 1
Posts: 1866
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
They're a tad low but in the ball park. For a WOT run the AFR looks very lean too.
TickTock
That is a funny thing and the best laugh is there was only 8 runs made in the run files.......amazing how people tune for the rideability doing 100% TP pulls!!!
_____________________________
HDMD Tuning Center
EFI Training
352.242.9616
hdmd88@yahoo.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/6/2008 9:21:18 AM
|
|
|
Al_07WG
Posts: 77
Joined: 2/11/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
Thanks for the interest guys. I did notice that there seems to only have been 8 runs and I agree that the AFR looks lean at WOT. My tuning experience is limited and on my 93 Vette so this V-Twin is new to me but AFR for max power at WOT on the dyno w/ wideband in the Vette was closer to 12.5:1.
As I understand it the bike was only up on the dyno for 2 hours so I don't think I got a great dyno tune. Now I'm starting to wonder what I got.
Bike has Rush 2" baffle slip-on mufflers and a stage 1 style a/c kit. Other than that it is a stock 2007 96" tc running on 93 octane.
I have added ".txt" to the end of the tuning file name and included it here, hope this works.
Al.
edit to delete the tuning file as it was a lousy tune and I'd hate for someone to actually use it.
< Message edited by Al_07WG -- 5/11/2008 6:58:15 PM >
_____________________________
2007 Black Pearl Dyna Wide Glide
Stage 1 A/C, Rush 2" slip-on's, SERT.
Custom A/C cover by "Mud".
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/6/2008 9:33:44 AM
|
|
|
Doc 1
Posts: 1866
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
You are correct Al...the AFR at WOT should be 12.5:1 to 12.8:1......when you see a tuner leaning out the AFR he is looking for HP although the TQ will fall. I'm going to look at your map, there is no way I can tell you if it is right for your build but I can and will tell you what hedid and what he didn't do.
Couldn't open it....please send it to me via my email hdmd88@yahoo.com I need it to come as a MT6 or MT5 file
_____________________________
HDMD Tuning Center
EFI Training
352.242.9616
hdmd88@yahoo.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/6/2008 9:45:17 AM
|
|
|
Al_07WG
Posts: 77
Joined: 2/11/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
Email sent to you Doc, it's an MT6 file.
Thanks for looking,
Al.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/6/2008 11:18:04 AM
|
|
|
Doc 1
Posts: 1866
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Got it and sent you one back already....it didn't take long to look at that map...lol
_____________________________
HDMD Tuning Center
EFI Training
352.242.9616
hdmd88@yahoo.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/6/2008 12:29:48 PM
|
|
|
murphdog
Posts: 721
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: Mauldin, SC
Status: offline
|
Wow! They didn't touch the air-fuel ratio table, leaned out both front and rear via the VE tables, added 6.25° timing front and rear at all rpms from 90-100kPa, didn't touch the decel enleanment table.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/6/2008 9:56:04 PM
|
|
|
ToBeFrank
Posts: 270
Joined: 4/11/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
Could someone in the know please explain the logic on the hidden table AF_PE_Fuel_Air_Ratio table on his setup? note: His tuner started with 176AE104-A1.MT6 that has the same issue.
I don't think any logic explains it. It's just plain screwed up.
quote:
I wonder if his tuner was pulling his hair out on that one.
Based on the thread I created over on HTT about PE mode, I doubt he even noticed it. It seems most tuners don't even look at the ECM's afr target, they just tune to whatever they have set in the AFR table.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/7/2008 4:47:46 AM
|
|
|
whittlebeast
Posts: 286
Joined: 3/2/2007
Status: offline
|
So we are expected to just throw the bike up on a dyno and put it to full power and watch for unexpected and random changes in AFR with time and then prove that it is not Pump related? Once you have exhausted all of our optons, you have to assume it's a blown hidden table that is doing this to you? This table is hidden from you because you are too stupid to understand it? Your only option is to start with a new and different tune and hope you don't get burned again by blown logic in hidden tables?
I love this logic.....
AW
_____________________________
When the racers get done doing the impossible the engineers get a chance to correct the errors in the model.
***My other addiction, running Megasquirt EFI ***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXH4WWhqZ_s
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/8/2008 4:54:14 AM
|
|
|
whittlebeast
Posts: 286
Joined: 3/2/2007
Status: offline
|
I noticed that the latest calibration that is posted on the net still has this very odd (if not flat blown) table. Hopefully these effected files will be repaired soon and reposted with a new calibration number to give you guys some idea that you will need your bikes recalibrated.
AW
_____________________________
When the racers get done doing the impossible the engineers get a chance to correct the errors in the model.
***My other addiction, running Megasquirt EFI ***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXH4WWhqZ_s
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/8/2008 5:12:35 AM
|
|
|
TickTock
Posts: 631
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline
|
How are you viewing these hidden tables in the calibration files?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/8/2008 6:42:28 AM
|
|
|
whittlebeast
Posts: 286
Joined: 3/2/2007
Status: offline
|
Lets just say never underestimate the ability of the racers, programmers and people with well placed friends.
The real question is when will the software be fixed and what to do with the poeple that started with corrupt base tunes caused by hidden tables. I wonder if this issue is common in the factory release tunes. This was originally uncovered when I was trying to figure out data logs and was incorrectly accused of owning a company that had tools to uncover the issues.
All these issues need to be directed to the people that support the product.
AW
_____________________________
When the racers get done doing the impossible the engineers get a chance to correct the errors in the model.
***My other addiction, running Megasquirt EFI ***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXH4WWhqZ_s
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/8/2008 7:11:07 AM
|
|
|
TickTock
Posts: 631
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline
|
That is quite interesting.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/8/2008 5:24:31 PM
|
|
|
Aggie
Posts: 23
Joined: 11/7/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: whittlebeast
Could someone in the know please explain the logic on the hidden table AF_PE_Fuel_Air_Ratio table on his setup? note: His tuner started with 176AE104-A1.MT6 that has the same issue.
I wonder if his tuner was pulling his hair out on that one.
AW
I can tell you what PE is designed to be used for. It is a EGT management feature for extended WOT and high RPM operation. It changes the desired AFR as a function of time at high throttle and rpm to keep the EGT from climbing too high and damaging components.
Now if I was calibrating VEs, I would set the AFR in the main table and the PE table to the same value...let's say 13.2 This will keep the AFR desired from changing. Then when I was done with the VE's, I would set the main AFR and initial PE to 12.8 and calibrate PE to slowly enrichen the engine with time down to about 10.5.
This gives good power during most operating conditions and a safety net.
Maybe TTS will give us this capability.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/8/2008 6:13:12 PM
|
|
|
cwalms
Posts: 209
Joined: 3/12/2007
Status: offline
|
I just had my bike tuned a few weeks ago. Last year the dealer installed a stock map from my SERT but didn't make any adjustments. After talking with several people and reading a few threads here at the forum I realized my bike wasn't running quite right. Here is the results from my dyno showing the stock SERT download compared to the Dyno-tune. So far I am pretty happy with the results. 80.2 HP and 92 ft/lbs after tune. If anyone would care to comment on the results that would be great. I
Thumbnail Image
 Attachment (1)
_____________________________
2007 FXDL
SE AC
SERT
KhromeWerks 3" Slip-on's
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/8/2008 7:59:44 PM
|
|
|
whittlebeast
Posts: 286
Joined: 3/2/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Aggie
.....I would set the AFR in the main table and the PE table to the same value...let's say 13.2 This will keep the AFR desired from changing. Then when I was done with the VE's, I would set the main AFR and initial PE to 12.8 and calibrate PE to slowly enrichen the engine with time down to about 10.5.
This gives good power during most operating conditions and a safety net.
Maybe TTS will give us this capability.
Great thought but PE is a hidden table that can't be set to 13.2 for tuning. The other thing is that it appears to only look at the PE table and I assume that the target AFR table is ignored at some point when the PE table takes over. I don't remember reading about any of this in the manual. The other thng is, there appears to be three different logics used in the Harley supplied tunes. Constent AFR in the PE table, falling AFR with time and random AFR with time. All of this is out of site and undocumented. When you ask for info, the standard answer is "my customers are too stupid to understand so I am not going to go into the details".
AW
_____________________________
When the racers get done doing the impossible the engineers get a chance to correct the errors in the model.
***My other addiction, running Megasquirt EFI ***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXH4WWhqZ_s
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/8/2008 10:19:12 PM
|
|
|
Doc 1
Posts: 1866
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwalms
I just had my bike tuned a few weeks ago. Last year the dealer installed a stock map from my SERT but didn't make any adjustments. After talking with several people and reading a few threads here at the forum I realized my bike wasn't running quite right. Here is the results from my dyno showing the stock SERT download compared to the Dyno-tune. So far I am pretty happy with the results. 80.2 HP and 92 ft/lbs after tune. If anyone would care to comment on the results that would be great. I
Thumbnail Image
Looking at a 100% throttle pull and seeing improvements is a nice thing BUT it's only 1/15th of the making of a tune up, I wish these so called tuners would give you all the information like the map would be nice and if they want to give you a graph ask them for the working graphs from idle to 100% throttle and each one in between....then and only then we could have something to comment on .The graph he gave you doesn't even have a fuel line on it, but at least he made 29 runs, hopefully they weren't all at 100%
Sorry but we get the same question from everyone and there isn't enough information to really check out the guys work.
_____________________________
HDMD Tuning Center
EFI Training
352.242.9616
hdmd88@yahoo.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/9/2008 5:28:22 PM
|
|
|
cwalms
Posts: 209
Joined: 3/12/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc 1
Looking at a 100% throttle pull and seeing improvements is a nice thing BUT it's only 1/15th of the making of a tune up, I wish these so called tuners would give you all the information like the map would be nice and if they want to give you a graph ask them for the working graphs from idle to 100% throttle and each one in between....then and only then we could have something to comment on .The graph he gave you doesn't even have a fuel line on it, but at least he made 29 runs, hopefully they weren't all at 100%
Sorry but we get the same question from everyone and there isn't enough information to really check out the guys work.
Doc1
I have the file with all the runs and the .mt6 file as well. The dealership gave them to me when they were finished. Would it be alright to send them to your email and have you look them over? If I knew how to attach them to the post I would do that, but I'm not that computer astute. Thanks for the feedback.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/9/2008 5:38:54 PM
|
|
|
Doc 1
Posts: 1866
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Absolutely, please do....I'd love to take a look. My email is in my signature.
_____________________________
HDMD Tuning Center
EFI Training
352.242.9616
hdmd88@yahoo.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/9/2008 6:05:52 PM
|
|
|
Aggie
Posts: 23
Joined: 11/7/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: whittlebeast
Great thought but PE is a hidden table that can't be set to 13.2 for tuning. The other thing is that it appears to only look at the PE table and I assume that the target AFR table is ignored at some point when the PE table takes over. I don't remember reading about any of this in the manual. The other thng is, there appears to be three different logics used in the Harley supplied tunes. Constent AFR in the PE table, falling AFR with time and random AFR with time. All of this is out of site and undocumented. When you ask for info, the standard answer is "my customers are too stupid to understand so I am not going to go into the details".
AW
Well as my last statement implied...I know it is hidden...and as I stated, maybe TTS will give us this table in the new Tuner.
As for being calibrated 3 different ways...I would be suprised if any 2 calibrators do things the exact same way. You should see the different ways things are calibrated in many of the other HIDDEN tables.
As for a possible explanation of the 3 methods. A constant AFR in the PE table means it really isn't being used, falling with time is the most common one, and the one in 176AE looks like it is designed to maximize the power for a given dyno test. Start out at 12.5, goes to 10 to keep the engine cool, goes to 12.5 again for max power during the sample period, and then starts enrichening for safety.
If you have found the hidden PE table, you should be able to find the parameters that enable and disable it....TPS and RPM set points.
Let me say that the 100's of hidden tables would confuse 99.9% of the people using the Tuner. Including most of the dealers that have no idea what is going on in the hidden tables. MOCO doesn't train them in the hidden tables. Knock alone has twice the number of tables/constants that are currently displayed in the Tuner. Even the list TTS has pubished for the new Tuner is a very small portion of those. But to do a average field tune, they are more than what is required. None of the available software packages in the aftermarket Tuning field (cars or bikes) offer more than a small percentage of the total calibration parameters.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/9/2008 7:37:49 PM
|
|
|
whittlebeast
Posts: 286
Joined: 3/2/2007
Status: offline
|
Megasquirt gets access to ALL tables. They even give full access to the documented code and the compilers.
Here is an example. http://www.bgsoflex.com/v2.98/megasquirt.asm
AW
< Message edited by whittlebeast -- 5/9/2008 7:51:59 PM >
_____________________________
When the racers get done doing the impossible the engineers get a chance to correct the errors in the model.
***My other addiction, running Megasquirt EFI ***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXH4WWhqZ_s
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/10/2008 5:26:11 AM
|
|
|
Al_07WG
Posts: 77
Joined: 2/11/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwalms
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc 1
Looking at a 100% throttle pull and seeing improvements is a nice thing BUT it's only 1/15th of the making of a tune up, I wish these so called tuners would give you all the information like the map would be nice and if they want to give you a graph ask them for the working graphs from idle to 100% throttle and each one in between....then and only then we could have something to comment on .The graph he gave you doesn't even have a fuel line on it, but at least he made 29 runs, hopefully they weren't all at 100%
Sorry but we get the same question from everyone and there isn't enough information to really check out the guys work.
Doc1
I have the file with all the runs and the .mt6 file as well. The dealership gave them to me when they were finished. Would it be alright to send them to your email and have you look them over? If I knew how to attach them to the post I would do that, but I'm not that computer astute. Thanks for the feedback.
cwalms, I would be most interested in seeing your .mt6 file as well. As you can see I have a 2007 96" stage 1 much like yours and it would seem that my "tuner" missed the mark by a bunch. I'd really like to compare my map tables to what you got. If your willing to let me have a look please send the .mt6 file to al1995@tds.net.
I didn't buy a Harley to go fast but it looks like your tuner found much more than mine did. I'd like to see how the map tables compare full range to mine.
Al.
_____________________________
2007 Black Pearl Dyna Wide Glide
Stage 1 A/C, Rush 2" slip-on's, SERT.
Custom A/C cover by "Mud".
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/10/2008 12:01:57 PM
|
|
|
cwalms
Posts: 209
Joined: 3/12/2007
Status: offline
|
No problem. I will send the file today.
Chris
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/10/2008 2:11:02 PM
|
|
|
cwalms
Posts: 209
Joined: 3/12/2007
Status: offline
|
Al - I sent the file. I am also going to send a copy of the dyno run that I got from the dealer today. It shows the AFR values for each cylinder. Thanks to Doc for pointing out the missing data.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/10/2008 4:01:33 PM
|
|
|
Doc 1
Posts: 1866
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Al_07WG
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwalms
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc 1
Looking at a 100% throttle pull and seeing improvements is a nice thing BUT it's only 1/15th of the making of a tune up, I wish these so called tuners would give you all the information like the map would be nice and if they want to give you a graph ask them for the working graphs from idle to 100% throttle and each one in between....then and only then we could have something to comment on .The graph he gave you doesn't even have a fuel line on it, but at least he made 29 runs, hopefully they weren't all at 100%
Sorry but we get the same question from everyone and there isn't enough information to really check out the guys work.
Doc1
I have the file with all the runs and the .mt6 file as well. The dealership gave them to me when they were finished. Would it be alright to send them to your email and have you look them over? If I knew how to attach them to the post I would do that, but I'm not that computer astute. Thanks for the feedback.
cwalms, I would be most interested in seeing your .mt6 file as well. As you can see I have a 2007 96" stage 1 much like yours and it would seem that my "tuner" missed the mark by a bunch. I'd really like to compare my map tables to what you got. If your willing to let me have a look please send the .mt6 file to al1995@tds.net.
I didn't buy a Harley to go fast but it looks like your tuner found much more than mine did. I'd like to see how the map tables compare full range to mine.
Al.
Al
I see your concerned about the power differences between your tune and Chris's tune....please note that your tune came from a Dyno Jet and Chris's was done on a Super Flow Dyno. There is going to be a difference between the two software programs, it's been my experience that the Super Flow reads about 4% higher than the Dyno Jet numbers. The operator of the dyno is a factor too, what was his weight, how where the runs made, what was the tire pressure, etc.
Doc
_____________________________
HDMD Tuning Center
EFI Training
352.242.9616
hdmd88@yahoo.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: My "MOCO trained" Dyno tune results. - 5/10/2008 5:15:38 PM
|
|
|
cwalms
Posts: 209
Joined: 3/12/2007
Status: offline
|
Al - I would listen to Doc's advice as I have absolutely no idea what any of the numbers mean in those files other than HP and torque. I, like you, am just trying to figure out if I got a good tune on the bike.
Chris
|
|
| | |
Printable Version
