Water Cooled Harleys!?
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Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/11/2008 12:25:47 PM
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fastjoe
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I read in one of the threads below where someone said that starting in 2010 all Harleys will be water cooled. Is that true, and if so why!?
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/11/2008 12:57:08 PM
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DannyZ71
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Harley probably feels that in order to remain competitive (a perception not always maintained by everyone) they have to make some changes. I figured when the VRod came out, that it would only be a matter of time.
In fact, about the time the VRod did come out, I read somewhere that they had made some significant changes that never made it to the production models. Things like water cooled, vibrationless motors, no "clunk" when you shifted gears, no "potato-potato" idling, and other "refinements". They also stated that there was kind of an uproar about it because they just didn't seem like "Harleys" that they had to redesign those Harley qualities back into the bike to make the general public happy.
We'll see if they actually do it this time.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/11/2008 1:39:07 PM
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AZ Rider
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So S&S, Victory, Big Dog and others can make EPA compliant air cooled engines for 2010 but not the manufacturer who sells 300,000 bikes per year, whos heritage is based on air cooled engines, and who has the most loyal following because of the traditional air cooled v-twin...cannot.
Sure.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/11/2008 1:43:10 PM
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AZ Rider
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quote:
Harley probably feels that in order to remain competitive (a perception not always maintained by everyone) they have to make some changes.
They sell more heavyweight motorcycles than anyone, Yamaha makes an air cooled v-twin instead of a water cooled to copy Harle's look yet Harley would need to change to remain competitive?
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/11/2008 4:18:09 PM
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sharkeydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DannyZ71
Harley probably feels that in order to remain competitive (a perception not always maintained by everyone) they have to make some changes. I figured when the VRod came out, that it would only be a matter of time.
In fact, about the time the VRod did come out, I read somewhere that they had made some significant changes that never made it to the production models. Things like water cooled, vibrationless motors, no "clunk" when you shifted gears, no "potato-potato" idling, and other "refinements". They also stated that there was kind of an uproar about it because they just didn't seem like "Harleys" that they had to redesign those Harley qualities back into the bike to make the general public happy.
We'll see if they actually do it this time.
Good point, I'm always listening to the metric lover's bitch about HD's and the way the do all the things that you mentioned. I love the clunk, I love the vibration, I love the uneven idle. That to me, is all part of the HD mystique. I can't see them following through with it to make some cheap ass, spend no money, metric pricks happy. Sometimes progress is not a good thing. HD is just finding who their buyer is now. I think they're doing a great job.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/11/2008 4:55:45 PM
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JB
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You know it sorta of odd we get in to threads like this and it get easy to see the different reasons some people buy a Harley. Some of us buy our rides because of the bike it self, knowing its not state of the art but a try ed and true design thats been around pretty much unchanged since the 30's. The thing of it is we like it that way and it does a good job of doing what it was designed to do, and as long as it can keep doing it and the market is their there is no valid reason to change it. Then you have the people on the other side of the line that it seems buy their bike because it has the Harley Davidson name and it wouldn't matter what was under them as long as it had a HD logo on the tank. Ive seen post's on to this forum from people that come in saying how for years they've wanted a Harley and now they finely got one and how great it is and then turn around and start in on if they would only make it water cooled and then maybe shaft drive think how great that would be, and you know it would be really cool if it had maybe a 8 speed trany. Well guess what people they import bikes just like what you're looking for every day, maybe you would be happier with one of those. Of course if people would buy the bike they really want instead of buying a name tag I guess there wouldn't be very many threads like this. Me Ill stick what we got I'm more then happy with it , after all I bought the bike and not the Logo.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/11/2008 5:30:46 PM
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MNPGRider
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Water cooled in 2010? Why? Why repeat internet rumors? Why not do a little research first?
http://www.epa.gov/OMS/regs/roadbike/420f03046.pdf
The link above has most of the answers, including this:
How closely do the new rules follow the California rules? The new rules mainly parallel the California model with some exceptions: • California has more stringent evaporative emissions regulations. • California does not regulate scooters and mopeds with small (under 50cc) engines. • California standards will be effective two years before EPA's standards. Harley is currently producing a 2008 California compliant motorcyle. This will be the same the rest of the nation must follow in 2010. And guess what? It ain't water cooled !
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/11/2008 5:46:04 PM
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Lopoetve
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it does have cats though.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/12/2008 6:25:26 AM
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italian biker
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I personally wouldn't mind seeing a V-rod type engine in all models. If they did that, I'd consider buying one.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/12/2008 8:52:02 AM
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DannyZ71
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AZ Rider
So S&S, Victory, Big Dog and others can make EPA compliant air cooled engines for 2010 but not the manufacturer who sells 300,000 bikes per year, whos heritage is based on air cooled engines, and who has the most loyal following because of the traditional air cooled v-twin...cannot.
Sure.
I somehow get the feeling that you think I'm all for massive changes to H-D. I am NOT. I don't think I could own a Harley that closely resembled a Honda or any other make. And I'm not talking about looks. I still think vibration is a good thing, that the only way to know you've correctly shifted to another gear is to hear the distinctive clunk, and that only a Harley can make the sound of a Harley, regardless of what pipes are put on.
But it's not fair to compare mass produced motorcycles with the somewhat limited production of the bikes you listed. Especially when those bikes cost a fair amount more money than a stock Harley.
My only "complaint", if it really is one, is that Harley motors should be a lot more powerful than they are. Not that I'm looking for a race bike, but if I'm wrong, then so is everyone on this forum that does things to wring a little more power out of their bikes. Like Stage 1 upgrades, etc.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/12/2008 9:16:38 AM
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Harley_Dude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AZ Rider
So S&S, Victory, Big Dog and others can make EPA compliant air cooled engines for 2010 but not the manufacturer who sells 300,000 bikes per year, whos heritage is based on air cooled engines, and who has the most loyal following because of the traditional air cooled v-twin...cannot.
Sure.
These are all using evo motors.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/12/2008 9:37:57 AM
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Cagetender
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Dont change a thing. The reason I bought a Harley Is the same reason I bought a Colt Single Action Army, a Shiloh Sharps and a mechanical watch. I like the primeval unadulterated function and soul of a product in this case a motorbike. If Ford made a deucecoupe with a Flathead I would buy this too. If Harley still made the JD which they made till 1929 ,I would buy that too. I think its also it is the basic sense and sentimentalty of being an American and being proud of it,even though Im a Canadian. Tell me if that makes sense. Americans have always been my heros and every genuine one of them that I have met has always been an Ambassador for freedom backed up by blood and guts.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/12/2008 9:53:04 AM
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JohnT
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MNPGRider
Water cooled in 2010? Why? Why repeat internet rumors? Why not do a little research first?
http://www.epa.gov/OMS/regs/roadbike/420f03046.pdf
The link above has most of the answers, including this:
How closely do the new rules follow the California rules? The new rules mainly parallel the California model with some exceptions: • California has more stringent evaporative emissions regulations. • California does not regulate scooters and mopeds with small (under 50cc) engines. • California standards will be effective two years before EPA's standards. Harley is currently producing a 2008 California compliant motorcyle. This will be the same the rest of the nation must follow in 2010. And guess what? It ain't water cooled !
That is correct. However, California standards WILL change again in 2010 and become even more restrictive. So, unless Harley wants to give up a big chunk of the California market (which is sizable), they'll have to do something to meet those new specs, even if it's just one or two models.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/12/2008 11:11:55 AM
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wallybally
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Theres 2 ways to look at it here for me. I love the Harley "patenna" sounds and looks but the reality of a fully intrusive government is here and now. Id love to see a Harley double overhead cam water cooled touring bike. It doesnt have to be the only engine though does it. I mean cant they do both engines? I can always have my pottata potatta motor too. Just sayin
WallyBally
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/12/2008 12:39:01 PM
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LarryDman
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I never had any interest in riding a MC until I saw a Documentary on Discovery Channel called "Birth Of The V-Rod", Loved its looks so much I went and got one (Luckily I saw it in 2005 so I got a used one for almost nothing). Not being from a Bike Background I didnt know I was buying the Most Hated Harley and as I learned to ride I also learned that Bike People are Very Closed mined and Hypocritical, especially the ones draped in HD clothes and spouting 'Live to Ride, Ride to Live" or "Live Free" etc... Apparently their is an Footnote somewhere that states "Only if you agree with everything I believe in" so I soon Soured from the HD "thing" due to most riders need to tell me what they think about my bike and the lack of Techs that know how to fix the new Technology. Over 3 years later i have found the proper Tech (40 miles away unfortunately, I actually have to pass 10 dealerships to get to this guys Indie Shop) No longer listen to the bigots and Love my bike . Harley In my opinion caved in almost immediately from the Negative feed Back from its Core riders and started to Paint the Vrod trying to make it blend in with other HD models, made Huge mistakes like The Street Rod and Too many models available and now 6 years later I feel they have accepted their Model (HD, not their Core Customers) and trimmed down the line to 3 models one with Mid Controls to catch that customer base. If it wasnt for this bike I wouldnt own a bike, Will HD change the other Models to Water? Not until the last moment but since I have been discriminated against I basically just ride with Other Vrod owners and the general idea is that if it wasnt for this Line, they would not own one so HD did Capture that Audience of people that would Not own one if not for the Vrod line.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/12/2008 12:43:52 PM
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ww1flyingace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AZ Rider
So S&S, Victory, Big Dog and others can make EPA compliant air cooled engines for 2010 but not the manufacturer who sells 300,000 bikes per year, whos heritage is based on air cooled engines, and who has the most loyal following because of the traditional air cooled v-twin...cannot.
Sure.
Im NOT sure about this, so don't hang me if i'm wrong. But I believe I once (from several sources) read that because of the NUMBER of bikes sold, Harley is held to tighter restrictions than the others you mentioned. So its NOT a level playing field. Which if you look into the new regs, I think you will find that really small builders (a dozen bikes a year) are NOT held to the regs. Or something like that.
So actually, you kind of hit the nail on the head. Its the 300,000 bikes a year that screw HD. (IF my information is correct)
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/12/2008 1:30:53 PM
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DeJavu
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Don't really know how to respond this post. Every change in Harley's history has been met with the same type of objections. Hydroglide vs Springer, knuck vs pan vs shovel vs evo vs twinky vs Vrod.
Each generation seems to hold tight to the philosophy that their model is/was so much better in some ways than the newer ones. I own an Evo chopper, hard tail. I think my engine and trans are superior to the twin cams from the point of view of a DIYer. I know my bike inside and out and that gives me great pleasure and confindence. I hold nothing against shovel or twincam owners or any other make as far as that's concerned. I really hate to see condescension on the part of any riders for what someone chooses to ride. I think it is petty and weak showing a lack of personal pride. Why would you put someone else down unless you feel inadequate youself.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/12/2008 1:42:52 PM
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cbigbie191
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LarryDman
I never had any interest in riding a MC until I saw a Documentary on Discovery Channel called "Birth Of The V-Rod", Loved its looks so much I went and got one (Luckily I saw it in 2005 so I got a used one for almost nothing). Not being from a Bike Background I didnt know I was buying the Most Hated Harley and as I learned to ride I also learned that Bike People are Very Closed mined and Hypocritical, especially the ones draped in HD clothes and spouting 'Live to Ride, Ride to Live" or "Live Free" etc... Apparently their is an Footnote somewhere that states "Only if you agree with everything I believe in" so I soon Soured from the HD "thing" due to most riders need to tell me what they think about my bike and the lack of Techs that know how to fix the new Technology. Over 3 years later i have found the proper Tech (40 miles away unfortunately, I actually have to pass 10 dealerships to get to this guys Indie Shop) No longer listen to the bigots and Love my bike . Harley In my opinion caved in almost immediately from the Negative feed Back from its Core riders and started to Paint the Vrod trying to make it blend in with other HD models, made Huge mistakes like The Street Rod and Too many models available and now 6 years later I feel they have accepted their Model (HD, not their Core Customers) and trimmed down the line to 3 models one with Mid Controls to catch that customer base. If it wasnt for this bike I wouldnt own a bike, Will HD change the other Models to Water? Not until the last moment but since I have been discriminated against I basically just ride with Other Vrod owners and the general idea is that if it wasnt for this Line, they would not own one so HD did Capture that Audience of people that would Not own one if not for the Vrod line.
Amen!!!!
It's amazing how even other HD "diehards" still wont accept you because you have the wrong Harley. I have an 07 Fatboy and the old school HD guys dont like it because it's new. WTF is up with that. I was at a BMW dealer with a friend and all the BMW guys liked it and allot of them own a Harley as well as there BMW's, they accept anyone on 2 wheels, where the Harley guys might accept you if you ride the right HD. The Harley lifestyle? F#$% it you can keep it.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/12/2008 1:43:17 PM
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Lopoetve
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most peopel don't have an issue with the rod other than the fact that they won't buy one. It never interested me in the same way as the 45-degree air coolers did. Different bike, that's all. If all harley made was the 'rod I'd buy something different.
some people want old, some people want new. So make both.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/12/2008 2:46:44 PM
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wbogley
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lopoetve
most peopel don't have an issue with the rod other than the fact that they won't buy one. It never interested me in the same way as the 45-degree air coolers did. Different bike, that's all. If all harley made was the 'rod I'd buy something different.
some people want old, some people want new. So make both.
I agree with this post. If you flip the Twin cam into a VROD frame and put REVO in XL, FL and FX lines it would never work or sell and it would cost HD a TON of cash. The VRod is fast and high tech, the current vrod owners arent going to trade in their bikes for a push rod 80 hp motor. It is same the other way, the TC/EVO riders arent going to trade their bikes for a new water cooled 1100 cc.
Is it me or do most people that say they are interested in a water cooled HD have no interest in buying a VROD. I dont get it.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/12/2008 3:50:06 PM
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MNPGRider
Posts: 1598
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Harley_Dude
quote:
ORIGINAL: AZ Rider
So S&S, Victory, Big Dog and others can make EPA compliant air cooled engines for 2010 but not the manufacturer who sells 300,000 bikes per year, whos heritage is based on air cooled engines, and who has the most loyal following because of the traditional air cooled v-twin...cannot.
Sure.
These are all using evo motors.
Big Dog is now using S&S's new Wedge Engine, aircooled, that meets EPA specs. S&S has stated openly that they will not abandon the air cooled engine, as they know what their customers want, and it's not watercooled.
And Victory is CERTAINLY not using anything close to an EVO motor.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/12/2008 3:57:37 PM
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Johan96
Posts: 474
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LarryDman
If it wasnt for this bike I wouldnt own a bike, Will HD change the other Models to Water? Not until the last moment but since I have been discriminated against I basically just ride with Other Vrod owners and the general idea is that if it wasnt for this Line, they would not own one so HD did Capture that Audience of people that would Not own one if not for the Vrod line.
Sad story! I think there is more than enough room for both vrods and twins!?
Johan
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/12/2008 3:59:16 PM
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MNPGRider
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Here is some info on the Wedge engine:
http://www.x-wedge.com/
Check this link, which includes this quote:
While governmental compliance was high on the list, S&S knew better than anyone (except for maybe Harley-Davidson) just how important it was to center the design of the new engine around three important themes. The proposed powerplant needed to have a direct connection to the past. Trying to sell an engine to its customers without features such as a Vee configuration, pushrod-actuated valves and air-cooling would be tantamount to corporate suicide.
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=4497&Page=1
There's no doubt in my mind that corporate Harley would have the same opinion.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/13/2008 11:20:36 PM
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K00LJerk
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Smart marketing on Harleys part they've made the deuce, road glide, rocker, vrod in a modern look and the glides, dynas, crossbones, springers as a throw back to older bikes. Got to hand it to them to make something for everyone, to survive Harleys already learned they have to make a quality product or become a footnote to history, I.E. all the U.S bike companies that are not around anymore. Of course not every thing that comes out of the MoCo is a hit the riders usually vote their wallets.
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/13/2008 11:40:48 PM
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99octane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CamFX
EPa emission rules change and get tighter in 2010. Its an almost sure thing that an air cooled motor will not be able to meet the new standards. Look how much heat the 96ci are making already. Plus clearances in an air cooled motor have to be larger to allow for more thermal expansion/contraction which contributes to more emissions.
Exactly. Moreover, an air cooled motor has a lower compression ratio, because the combustion chamber walls are hotter and make higher compression impossible due to detonation (pinging) problems. I guess the fat head oil cooling of the piston has been introduced to make the 9,6:1 compression ratio possible.
Combustion efficiency and engine emissions are directly linked to Compression ratio. Most modern engines run between 10,5 and 11,5:1.
Moreover, superlean combustion is usually used to further reduce emissions, but this furtherly heats up the chamber walls. Water cooling becomes a necessity. I like air cooled engines for their simplicity, and will hold fast to my Dyna
But on a rational level, I have to admit that the reasons that made an air cooled engine worth having have ceased to exist since long time. Moreover, modern HD engines are far from simple. My '07 Dyna has electronic injection, an active control exhaust and active control intake. There's more electronics in that "simple, air cooled engine" than in my tuned, turbocharged japanese Lancer Evo IX.
So, I guess that the times of the air cooled engine are over, and we have to cope with this. The distinctive sound will be there all the same, as well as the vibration and the mechanical sounds of the transmission. We will just have to deal with a radiator.
Well, on the bright side, no more shutdowns and much less "roasted tigh" in hot days. 
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RE: Water Cooled Harleys!? - 5/13/2008 11:53:18 PM
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99octane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cagetender
Dont change a thing. The reason I bought a Harley Is the same reason I bought a Colt Single Action Army, a Shiloh Sharps and a mechanical watch. I like the primeval unadulterated function and soul of a product in this case a motorbike. If Ford made a deucecoupe with a Flathead I would buy this too. If Harley still made the JD which they made till 1929 ,I would buy that too. I think its also it is the basic sense and sentimentalty of being an American and being proud of it,even though Im a Canadian. Tell me if that makes sense. Americans have always been my heros and every genuine one of them that I have met has always been an Ambassador for freedom backed up by blood and guts.
+1
I'm a system administrator. I deal with high technology everyday and, actually, I pretty like it, in certain applications.
For example I own a digital TV recorder, several last-generation game consoles, both fixed and portable, a home network more complex than the one there's in my office. They are good things to have to make your life more comfortable and fun. But I also have a mechanical watch (will wear quartz watches only if compelled) I write with a fountain pen, I'm a blacksmith for a hobby and forge my knives out of old files and scrap parts with a hand-cranked coal forge, and like to have the least possible electronics in my car.
Certain things have to have a soul for them being worth having.
A Harley Davidson, that's a motorcycle. A Suzuki GSXR? That's just a superfast one-man vehcile.
PS: Compliments on the Shiloh Sharps! I'd like one of those, but they are out of my economical reach right now (has to pay the bike...  )
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