103 build and cam choices - again
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103 build and cam choices - again - 5/11/2008 8:40:42 PM
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roadroids
Posts: 25
Joined: 12/1/2007
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I am in the process of getting parts for a 103 build for my road king classic. My priorities are low and mid torque. I want to pass on 2 lanes in a hurry. I mostly tour in the 70 to 80 range with most of my riding on two lanes and interstates. I seldom ride 2 up but am a big dude and pack heavy. I want a dependable and reliable engine. My current set up includes a big sucker, pc III, and rinehart true duals. I will be going with flat top pistons in 103 jugs. I am not planning on doing any head work at this time. I am debating between the andrews 26 and the wood tw6 - I want bolt ons. The dealer who will be doing the work suggested se 203's. If anything goes wrong it's on my dime, even if I use the se cams. SO I thought, why not go with the best cam for my set up. What do ya'll think would be the best cam choice? From reading the hundreds of cam posts, it looks like the andrews 26 and the wood tw6 are both very popular.
Also, what are the opinions about the need for upgraded crank bearings on this set up?
Thanks for the input!
Bill
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2007 Road King Classic
PC III
Rinehart True Duals
Stage One SE
Bad Attitude
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/11/2008 8:51:43 PM
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darkdyna06
Posts: 297
Joined: 12/9/2006
From: North Hills California
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The 203, and Andrews 26 are pretty small for a 103, I have the Crane 290s in my 103"er, and am making 100+ ft lbs by 2500rpm. I bet the Andrews 37, or the SE 204 would work just as well, in fact Spankustang on this forum got the same results as I did with the 37s.
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Life on life''''s terms
2006 Street Bob Vivid Black
SERT
Nightrider VIEDs
103" 10.2:1
Andrews 54H
ported SE performance heads
Black Short Shot Staggered pipes
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/11/2008 10:26:20 PM
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bklynbob
Posts: 82
Joined: 3/10/2008
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Seems the cams for a torquey 103 is the r&r 525,the se 255 and the andrews 54.
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/11/2008 10:31:51 PM
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mentor70
Posts: 1082
Joined: 12/24/2006
From: Diamond Bar, California
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Not doing head work kinda limits your choices on some realy great cams. (look for Philms dyno in the bagger section)
but the HQ TC500 is also a contender for a great bolt in cam. HQ has a independant dyno submission comparing this cam to the SE 255.
Exhaust choice is crittical here too, I would be looking for a 2 to 1 VS the true duals.
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HQ 95 ci, .575 Firestorm cams
DTT ignition
Stage eleventeen HVP heads.
10.2 to 1 comp.
Miknui 42mm
D&D fat cat
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/12/2008 3:26:07 AM
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maineultraclassic
Posts: 2794
Joined: 3/22/2006
From: Southern Maine
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I just finished doing a 103" build with the Woods 6-6 cams............that thing is a monster. The 30-60 3rd gear runs to seat the rings were a blast to do, and were over pretty quick if you know what I mean............LOL.
Steve
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/12/2008 4:25:23 AM
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Hillsidecyclecom
Posts: 255
Joined: 12/12/2007
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In a touring application, either the 6 or 37 cams will work great.
Done 'em both ways. Smooth,broad,strong power from off idle to 5200-5400.
Not trying to see who makes it down the 1/4 mile first, just super-strong, long distance, highway runners.
Scott
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/12/2008 5:46:23 AM
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spankustang
Posts: 131
Joined: 8/8/2007
From: Cole Camp, MO
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I went with the Andrews 37H cams in mine. Made good power and great torque. I ride mostly two up, so the torque is good for me. Not too mention, got 53.1 mpg riding solo a couple weekends ago.
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07 StreetGlide
103 cubic inch
98hp/107tq
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/12/2008 7:07:53 AM
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Old Gunny
Posts: 303
Joined: 11/22/2007
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I'd bit the bullet and do ,at least enough head work to include a little cleanup. Then Woods 7H cams, valves and springs. Not quiet bolt in but the main thing is clearancing the rocker boxes, just drimmel grinding.
My bike will pull and sound like a old style big ole John Deere, In 6 gear at 45 MPH, going uphill. A friend road it and commented, "It's All Torque". But it will wing out till my vision blures. Which at 72 is not that much really. Hell I quite at about 120, worry about the windshield.
< Message edited by Old Gunny -- 5/12/2008 7:21:17 AM >
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08 FLSTF
NRHS Axtell 107
Woods 7H
Woods springs & valves for 400 Cam
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AN BS
Very sweet job on stock heads
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SE Clutch Pack
Amsoil
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/12/2008 3:30:19 PM
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darkdyna06
Posts: 297
Joined: 12/9/2006
From: North Hills California
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The main thing to think about is do you want to pull off the rocker boxes, and buy roller rocker arms? The valve stem to rocker arm angles in a Harley are pretty bad, and with higher lift comes more wear on the valve guide. Plus the cast rocker arm supports wont do well with heavy springs, that go with high lifts. The seals on the late bikes do a real good job of controling the oil up there, but when the guide wears the valve job suffers.
We all like to argue which is better, and get worked up trying to decide which one will make more power, but were really comparing 6 to half a dozen in most cases. Keep in mind that the stock heads while better than the earlier heads dont flow much better at .600 than they do at .500 so going with a high lift most likely wont do you much good. All the popular manufacturers make cams that are what we call 'bolt in' which range from .490 to .525 lift, and close the intake valve between 38 and 42 degrees. They are all within a few degrees everywhere you check them, so dont think one company's "magic camshaft" is better than another's. You have a lot of choices, but will most likely get the same results from all of these;
Andrews 37
Woods tw6
Head Quarters HQ500
Dave Mackie 510
Crane 310
Kuryakin tc-1
Leineweber RE T3s
Screamin Eagle 203, or 204
R&R 525
Tman 525c
Look on the Bigboyz porting website, go th the camshaft comparator and look how close they all are. With chains and no way to degree them in, 2 or 3 degrees either direction wont make any significant difference at the rear wheel. I like the Andrews 37s, you can get a set for at or under $250.00 if you shop around, and a few guys are selling their old ones cheap.
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_____________________________
Life on life''''s terms
2006 Street Bob Vivid Black
SERT
Nightrider VIEDs
103" 10.2:1
Andrews 54H
ported SE performance heads
Black Short Shot Staggered pipes
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/12/2008 6:46:35 PM
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esyrdgcwby
Posts: 91
Joined: 12/19/2007
From: Calfornia
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I have andrews 67g Gear drive In my 103 set up with My heads ported & polished & I typically cruise around the same speeds as you, I am also not that small of a guy & when i want to get up & go it does.
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00FXST
103" /Diamond Cut Cylinders
G-Man HEADs
Andrews Gear drive Cams
120 + HP/torque
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/12/2008 7:42:28 PM
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labfreak
Posts: 1079
Joined: 7/22/2007
From: The Left Coast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: darkdyna06
Look on the Bigboyz porting website, go th the camshaft comparator and look how close they all are.
+1 on this, www.bigboyzcycles.cm it is an interesting comparator, you can compare 3 different cams at a time
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/13/2008 3:06:03 AM
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domenicp7
Posts: 1292
Joined: 6/8/2007
From: Dallas,Tx
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quote
On my 103" Stage II HD setup, and going for what you described, you simply can't beat the SE 255's. You'll get almost or a bit more than 100ft/lb of torque real early.
I have the same setup and on my light bike that is what I am getting over 100ft/lbs of torque early. Passing power at higher speeds is not an issue. I have plenty of power left I am below 3000rpm at 80mph in 6th gear.
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103ci Stage II Big Bore Kit/SE 255 Cams
V&H Big Shot Staggered Duals
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1200R Racing Orange (Sold)
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/13/2008 7:31:33 AM
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mentor70
Posts: 1082
Joined: 12/24/2006
From: Diamond Bar, California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: domenicp7
quote
On my 103" Stage II HD setup, and going for what you described, you simply can't beat the SE 255's. You'll get almost or a bit more than 100ft/lb of torque real early.
I have the same setup and on my light bike that is what I am getting over 100ft/lbs of torque early. Passing power at higher speeds is not an issue. I have plenty of power left I am below 3000rpm at 80mph in 6th gear.
Did your build break 100 lbs of torque? I have yet to see one that has out here in cali with SAE corrections!
_____________________________
HQ 95 ci, .575 Firestorm cams
DTT ignition
Stage eleventeen HVP heads.
10.2 to 1 comp.
Miknui 42mm
D&D fat cat
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/13/2008 9:12:30 AM
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Colonel Sanders
Posts: 74
Joined: 9/11/2007
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When comparing cam specs remember that the valve event and lift numbers do not tell you the whole story...they don't explain the difference in ramp rates between cams. That's why a Woods cam is going to outperform another comparably specced cam. It's also why the Woods cam is likely to be noisier. The faster the ramp rates, the "bigger" a cam is going to act since you're getting the valve open high quicker and holding it high longer.
Just because the cam comparator suggests that two cams are alike does not mean that they will perform the same.
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/13/2008 2:47:54 PM
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spankustang
Posts: 131
Joined: 8/8/2007
From: Cole Camp, MO
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These are SAE #'s on my 07 StreetGlide
103", Andrews 37H cams
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Attachment (1)
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07 StreetGlide
103 cubic inch
98hp/107tq
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/13/2008 3:15:50 PM
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splitting_lanes
Posts: 65
Joined: 5/8/2008
Status: online
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that's a sweet torque curve!
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/14/2008 6:01:15 PM
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darkdyna06
Posts: 297
Joined: 12/9/2006
From: North Hills California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Colonel Sanders
When comparing cam specs remember that the valve event and lift numbers do not tell you the whole story...they don't explain the difference in ramp rates between cams. That's why a Woods cam is going to outperform another comparably specced cam. It's also why the Woods cam is likely to be noisier. The faster the ramp rates, the "bigger" a cam is going to act since you're getting the valve open high quicker and holding it high longer.
Just because the cam comparator suggests that two cams are alike does not mean that they will perform the same.
With cams as small as we are running, a fast ramp will only be marginally better than a gentle one. I'm not saying a quick acting cam like the woods wont run as good or better than the others, but I am saying the power band is mostly dictated by the intake closing point, and amount of overlap. Theres a reason we compare them at .050 lift, how much do you think really happens below that point. Theoretically, the only thing you would get is more bad habbits, since without delaying the intake closing, you wont get any better cylinder filling than the others.
_____________________________
Life on life''''s terms
2006 Street Bob Vivid Black
SERT
Nightrider VIEDs
103" 10.2:1
Andrews 54H
ported SE performance heads
Black Short Shot Staggered pipes
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/14/2008 8:35:28 PM
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bigthump
Posts: 24
Joined: 1/7/2006
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Personally I am a Wood cam fan. I like the duration of the TW6. If you want low end grunt look for a 234 duration, with a centerline of 100. Or better yet call Bob Wood and tell him what kind of riding you do and what you are looking for and he can make a suggestion. Like what was stated before any of the .510 lifts should get you what you want. Woods Cams are known for there torque. Just my .02 worth
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07 Street Glide
Arlen Ness Big Sucker Stg.1
Fat Cat 2 into 1
ThunderMax with Auto tune
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/15/2008 7:27:52 AM
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Colonel Sanders
Posts: 74
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"Theres a reason we compare them at .050 lift, how much do you think really happens below that point."
What about what happens after .050....between there and max lift?
A quicker rate of valve opening gets you to any given lift quicker and if the closing is also quicker it keeps you above that given lift longer (speaking in degrees of crank rotation of course).
Ok, take two cams, both with the same .050 duration, both with the same max lift (call it .600 lift). Give one cam lazy valve acceleration and the other very quick acceleration. Which one is going to spend the most time above .400 lift, for example, where the head is flowing really well? Compare the time spent above .400 as a percentage between the two cams.
I don't think this is insignificant. This is why agressive lobed cams like the Woods cams make more power for a given duration and lift. IMO, this factor makes FAR more difference than a few degrees of duration or a few hundredths of lift.
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RE: 103 build and cam choices - again - 5/15/2008 9:15:22 PM
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darkdyna06
Posts: 297
Joined: 12/9/2006
From: North Hills California
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This could be argued forever, and again I am not saying a quicker ramp wont work as well or better, but what I am saying is that with stock heads, and camshafts as mild as most of us are running, the difference is not worth the extra $100.00 or more that the woods cam costs. I am also saying that the softer ramps are indeed quieter, and easier on the corresponding valvetrain parts.
Whichever cam you go with, you will most likely be very pleased with the results.
_____________________________
Life on life''''s terms
2006 Street Bob Vivid Black
SERT
Nightrider VIEDs
103" 10.2:1
Andrews 54H
ported SE performance heads
Black Short Shot Staggered pipes
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