Cylinder head temps??
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Cylinder head temps?? - 5/16/2008 10:42:49 PM
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XLXR
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Any tuners know what the cylinder head temps are, as recorded by SERT? What is normal operating temperature range, and what is max temperature? I am considering doing more tuning on my 06 carb 1200 Roadster and use a infared thermometer to measure head temps. But it varies at different locations. I was wondering if using the infared temp guage on the same location as the temp sensor on FI bike would give similiar readings, or how far off they would be.
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/17/2008 4:22:56 AM
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Doc 1
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I've found the inferred will read 50 degrees hotter than the ECM temp sensor
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/17/2008 8:36:51 AM
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ToBeFrank
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc 1
I've found the inferred will read 50 degrees hotter than the ECM temp sensor
I think that's a bad generalization to make. If you point the IR at the same location as the temp sensor, it reads about the same. If you point it at the exhaust port area of the head, it reads much hotter. It all depends on where you point it.
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/17/2008 3:24:07 PM
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Doc 1
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Well Frank here again you have to be 10% smarter than what your working with....if you want to know the temp of the combustion chamber you got to point the thing at the combustion chamber not the pipe of the side of the heads.......
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/17/2008 4:13:35 PM
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ToBeFrank
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc 1
Well Frank here again you have to be 10% smarter than what your working with....if you want to know the temp of the combustion chamber you got to point the thing at the combustion chamber not the pipe of the side of the heads.......
Wow, who p***ed in your cheerios? The OP didn't ask how to get the temp of the combustion chamber. He asked:
quote:
I was wondering if using the infared temp guage on the same location as the temp sensor on FI bike would give similiar readings, or how far off they would be.
Notice he specifically stated measuring in the same location as the temp sensor. Your answer is too generalized to apply here, and I stand by what I said.
BTW, there's no reason to get offensive in your reply. Just because I disagree with your answer doesn't mean I'm calling you stupid (as you've implied to me).
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/17/2008 6:00:40 PM
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XLXR
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I looked at a FI 1200 Sportster today. There is an electrical wire going through the hole in the top of the rocker cover of the rear cylinder directly center of the head. I ASSUME that is the temperature sensor. I can point the infared temp guage down there and get a reading, but I have no idea how accurate the reading is compared to the SERT reading.
So then the question becomes if anybody who does SERT tuning can use an infared temp guage at a specific point that can be described to people like me who have an infared temp guage and correlate its temp reading with the SERT reading.
You guys can squabble all you want, but it will take someone with SERT tuning exprience to answer the question.
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/17/2008 7:20:38 PM
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rbabos
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Looks like Doc and Frank had a bad day at the office
Ron
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/17/2008 11:17:16 PM
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ToBeFrank
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quote:
ORIGINAL: XLXR
You guys can squabble all you want, but it will take someone with SERT tuning exprience to answer the question.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ToBeFrank
If you point the IR at the same location as the temp sensor, it reads about the same.
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/18/2008 5:11:54 AM
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Doc 1
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First off Frank I can care less if you do or don't agree with me. I do care when you bring the VTF attitude over here.....God knows if your not political correct with the spelling or punctuation or your shoe is untied the VTF will certainly let one know.
As far as being offensive....I replied to your response tactfully and to the point.....if you had 25 to 30 emails from members here each day along with 10 to 15 maps and graphs to view from members each day, your answers would be short and to the point too.
I don't have time for these Internet aurguments....I left the VTF because of them and now you want to start it up here....sorry I not playing those games anymore. I suggest you use your Block button as I will on you.
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/18/2008 5:20:22 AM
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82SturgisFX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: XLXR
I looked at a FI 1200 Sportster today. There is an electrical wire going through the hole in the top of the rocker cover of the rear cylinder directly center of the head. I ASSUME that is the temperature sensor. I can point the infared temp guage down there and get a reading, but I have no idea how accurate the reading is compared to the SERT reading.
So then the question becomes if anybody who does SERT tuning can use an infared temp guage at a specific point that can be described to people like me who have an infared temp guage and correlate its temp reading with the SERT reading.
You guys can squabble all you want, but it will take someone with SERT tuning exprience to answer the question.
Tho doc's answer may appear flippant to the casual,he probably has given as accurate an answer as is possible.Aimed at the combustion chamber is avg. 50 degrees diff.
any closer accuracy is probably not going to affect the outcome of what ever calculation you are attempting.
I would hazard anoother guess and say that one could log SERT data and extrapolate the SERT data by comparing the infared data and inputing incrementaly until the changes were verifiable......but thats another story.
I am curious what you are trying to emulate/simulate.
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/18/2008 5:46:24 AM
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whittlebeast
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Detonation and the control of it is a function of the motors ability to deal with heat. Without the ability to quantify heat, it is impossible to control detonation. If you watch the ION sensing, the cylinder head temps and engine map then his questions will start making sence. Without this knowledge you are just adding fuel and pulling timing as a crutch to cover for a lack of cooling hoping to avoid meltdown. Loud exhaust systems also hides this real well. I use a $3000 medical microscope to read my plugs for signs for detonation.
What I think the guy is just asking is "what is too hot when everything falls apart?" 250, 300, 400, 500? What is the temp where Harley engineers or the tuners get concerned? In a water cooled motor this all starts at about 220 degrees water temp as the water leaves the head. If it helps, the SERT is getting head temps on my stock 2007 1200 sporty approaching 400 degrees on a 60 degree day when out on the road. I don't have a detonation issue untill the outside temp gets closer to 95 or so.
All of this airflow and cooling is almost impossible to duplicate on a dyno.
AW
< Message edited by whittlebeast -- 5/18/2008 8:32:27 AM >
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/18/2008 8:09:59 AM
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ToBeFrank
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc 1
First off Frank I can care less if you do or don't agree with me. I do care when you bring the VTF attitude over here.....God knows if your not political correct with the spelling or punctuation or your shoe is untied the VTF will certainly let one know.
It appears you do care as you've taken offense that I even disagreed with you. Merely by disagreeing I now have a "VTF attitude"? As you put it, my answer was "short and to the point". It answered the OP's question and was different than your answer. The only attitude that has been involved is in your responses to me.
quote:
As far as being offensive....I replied to your response tactfully and to the point.....if you had 25 to 30 emails from members here each day along with 10 to 15 maps and graphs to view from members each day, your answers would be short and to the point too.
I'm sorry doc, but implying someone is not smart is anything but tactful.
quote:
I don't have time for these Internet aurguments....I left the VTF because of them and now you want to start it up here....sorry I not playing those games anymore. I suggest you use your Block button as I will on you.
Then don't start the arguments. I gave my opinion from my experience and answered the OP's question. The argument started when you implied I wasn't smart. All because I disagreed with you. Feel free to block me.
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/18/2008 10:21:40 AM
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cwalms
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Well I have only measured the temp of my cylinders with an IR thermometer next to the spark plugs and these were my readings:
Outside temp ~70 degrees F
Bike sat at idle after 8 mile ride home from work for about 3 minutes (time to get the thermometer from the garage)
Front cylinder 310 degrees F
Rear cylinder 320 degrees F
Just had the bike tuned a couple weeks ago and it's cooler on the cylinders by about 15 - 20 degrees since the tune. Anyway, not sure if this applies to your question or not, but thought it might help.
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/18/2008 10:34:19 AM
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whittlebeast
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calms
That is real similar to the temps I get also in the driveway. The problem is that the temps can be very different than that at full power at 70 mph with the air to the rear cylinder blocked by your leg and the intake air temp is approaching 130. Remember that the air cleaner is right in line with the air coming off the front exhaust. This is all very dificult to duplicate on any dyno and is best documented on the track. The SERT data logger is the tool we have to work with out in the real world when the detonation sets in.
AW
< Message edited by whittlebeast -- 5/18/2008 11:15:39 AM >
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/18/2008 11:09:16 AM
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XLXR
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I am using an infared temp guage because it is easy and convenient. I have noticed the temp reading does change depending on where you aim it as well as how hard the engine has been run. I have also noticed that by the time you pull off the road and pull the infared temp guage out of your pocket, the engine has cooled significantly, which is normal.
A 50 degree difference in temp from the SERT reading and infared temp reading wouldn't suprise me. But again, the location of the spot the infared temp guage is reading from will make a big difference. My guess pointing the infared temp guage next to spark plugs would provide a more accuate and consistent reading. But without correlating it to SERT readings, the infared temp readings are somewhat dubious.
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/18/2008 2:43:23 PM
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XLXR
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I went out and took some temperture readings. It was 85 to 90 degrees, 06 carb 1200 stage 1. I pulled off the road, left the bike idleing and took the temps pointing the infared guage at the area next to the spark plug and between the two rocker bolts. They ranged from 335 to 351. The temp taken through the hole in the rocker cover was 300. So taking the temps at the spark plug may be more accurate.
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/18/2008 3:29:11 PM
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Doc 1
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 I don't have time to call you stupid nor do I care if your stupid or not.....believe me I don't really care. I think you read my responce with too much emotions or your trying to put emotions into my writing, one or the other because I'm not bothered by your response like you think I am......I really don't care what you think amount me or what you think about Steve Cole, he's the other member here you disagreed with according to your findings on the SERT decel numbers....BTW did you know he was the developer of the Tuner? 
You said you where speaking from your experience and that is a good thing so I looked up you birthday, did you know I was at the Motor Co Service school in the same year your where born, ran a dealership for 2 years went back to the Motor Co update school in 1978, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2007, plus ran my own shop for 27 years, I had 4 bikes featured in Custom Chopper Mag before you where one year old. I worked in dealers for 6 years, crew chief and builder of AHDRA Pro Modified Drag bike, worked and wrote the lesson plans for the high performance class in MMI and the Dyno Class at MMI that is still running there to this day, Now I hate to blow my horn like this but if your going to back up what you say on your experience I better give you some light on my experience too. Now I will say that your 31 year old body would probably be able to beat up this 60 year body fairly easy....I'll give you that one but that's the only one.....lol
Bottom line Frank don't get all bent out of shape over what some one wrote in the forums.......I don't care what you wrote about me, I read it and chuckle....it means nothing to me. Come on Frank....laugh it off.....
< Message edited by Doc 1 -- 5/18/2008 9:23:13 PM >
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/18/2008 10:14:59 PM
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XLXR
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JEESS, isn't this fun.
But we still don't have an accurate answer to if the infared readings taken next to the spark plug correlate to the SERT temp readings. The only reason I would like to compare the two is to see if the infared readings are close to accurate.
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/18/2008 10:44:38 PM
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masterblaster
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XLXR, I think there is an answer but it is very complicated and you would probably need a wind tunnel and serious thermal imaging to get what you are looking for. My experience has been the same as yours using the TMAT temp record and a Chraftsman IR gun, I took my exhaust off and found slight deterioration to the valve guides, none of this concerns me as the bike runs great and I ride Miami rush hour more often than not. I use a (Good) full synthetic oil ( Mobil V/Amsoil ) my simple experiment showed a 20 degree drop vs dino oil. Just revcently put the HD Prem oil cooler on.
Been reading Doc 1 posts since he joined, he is on the top of my respect list as far as knowledge of bikes on this forum. Steve Cole developed the SERT for Harley and tuners for other machines, I have been following his posts since he joined, very smart man ( would call him a geek if he wasn't so cool ), do a search of his name and juge for yourself.
Not knocking anyone elses opinion here so please refrain from flaming, as the man said " Cant we all just get along?"
I don't have time to call you stupid nor do I care if your stupid or not.....believe me I don't really care. I think you read my responce with too much emotions or your trying to put emotions into my writing, one or the other because I'm not bothered by your response like you think I am......I really don't care what you think amount me or what you think about Steve Cole, he's the other member here you disagreed with according to your findings on the SERT decel numbers....BTW did you know he was the developer of the Tuner?
You said you where speaking from your experience and that is a good thing so I looked up you birthday, did you know I was at the Motor Co Service school in the same year your where born, ran a dealership for 2 years went back to the Motor Co update school in 1978, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2007, plus ran my own shop for 27 years, I had 4 bikes featured in Custom Chopper Mag before you where one year old. I worked in dealers for 6 years, crew chief and builder of AHDRA Pro Modified Drag bike, worked and wrote the lesson plans for the high performance class in MMI and the Dyno Class at MMI that is still running there to this day, Now I hate to blow my horn like this but if your going to back up what you say on your experience I better give you some light on my experience too. Now I will say that your 31 year old body would probably be able to beat up this 60 year body fairly easy....I'll give you that one but that's the only one.....lol
Bottom line Frank don't get all bent out of shape over what some one wrote in the forums.......I don't care what you wrote about me, I read it and chuckle....it means nothing to me. Come on Frank....laugh
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/19/2008 3:56:21 AM
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whittlebeast
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So now that we have all that out of the way...
What is too hot on one of these bikes when detonation is bound to set in? If the number is around 400, is Harley going to have huge trouble with at least some of these bikes running that hot in 80 degree weather?
AW
_____________________________
When the racers get done doing the impossible the engineers get a chance to correct the errors in the model.
***My other addiction, running Megasquirt EFI ***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXH4WWhqZ_s
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/19/2008 4:22:12 AM
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Doc 1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: XLXR
I went out and took some temperature readings. It was 85 to 90 degrees, 06 carb 1200 stage 1. I pulled off the road, left the bike idleing and took the temps pointing the infared guage at the area next to the spark plug and between the two rocker bolts. They ranged from 335 to 351. The temp taken through the hole in the rocker cover was 300. So taking the temps at the spark plug may be more accurate.
You answered your own question in this post XLXR, that's why I didn't say anymore on it ....sorry.
Power Commander says to keep the temps between 300* to 350* while tuning using a IFR Temp Gun. This measurement should be taken in that small area between the spark plug and the rocker box consistently to get a consistent reading....this area is directly above the combustion chamber.
When I tune the SERT with the use of the Head Temp Sensor and Data Mode I keep the temps between 200* and 240*.....if I measure the head in the spark plug area as explained above I see a 50* difference in numbers compared to the Data Mode readings. Now are all sensors the same? No, but the readings won't fluctuate that much.
Like Master Blaster said these temps needs to be controlled ,with fans like in the Dyno Room, as you tune. If your temps exceed 350* using the IFR Temp gun shut down the bike and let her cool.
Again sorry for getting off the subject and sorry to you Frank if you think I called you stupid....wasn't meant that way at all.
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/19/2008 6:14:07 AM
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whittlebeast
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Thanks Doc
Wow that is close to 100 degrees cooler than what Harley is getting on the production release tune. This might get really scary in the dead of summer. Are these stock bikes starting to show up at the dealers with serious issues. This is the sort of thing that could kill the air cooled production v-twin for good. :(
AW
_____________________________
When the racers get done doing the impossible the engineers get a chance to correct the errors in the model.
***My other addiction, running Megasquirt EFI ***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXH4WWhqZ_s
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/19/2008 8:58:22 AM
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jlb0038
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Power Commander says to keep the temps between 300* to 350* while tuning using a IFR Temp Gun.
Doc 1, Thanks for that info. I've been searching all over for that. Now I know I'm running ok.
XLXR, Thanks for starting this thread. My head temps have been bugging me for weeks.
J.B.
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RE: Cylinder head temps?? - 5/19/2008 9:12:59 AM
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XLXR
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"When I tune the SERT with the use of the Head Temp Sensor and Data Mode I keep the temps between 200* and 240*.....if I measure the head in the spark plug area as explained above I see a 50* difference in numbers compared to the Data Mode readings. Now are all sensors the same? No, but the readings won't fluctuate that much."
Based on this, the stock temperature sensor does have different readings than an infared sensor pointed at the area next to the spark plug. Which is fine, because SERT would be programed to use it's own readings.
Now the next questions becomes, how hot is too hot as measured by an infared temp guage pointed at the area between the spark plugs and rocker head bolts?
I made my measurements under normal riding conditions. I am sure the temps would go up when I really hammer the motor, but I can't measure them while riding hard, and they seem to cool off very quickly. I have never noticed anything that would concern me about overheating the engine. No pinging, no loss of power, no oil consumption.
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