So I pulled the cam cover off yesterday to put down a new gasket and check that all the cams were lined up and that free end play was correct. I pull off the cover, pull the cams out clean everything up, and then realize I need to probably check that the oil pump is timed correctly. So I pull out my nifty HD manual and make sure I am corect in the procedure for what I have to do with that. I was right, just simply line up the timing mark in the timing hole, pinion gear and worm gear should both be lined up (or really close), both lines should be almost vertical AND the breather hole mark should be facing me. Instead this is what I get.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll208/supr2nr/Bike%20Pictures/05-17-08%20Problem/DSC01001.jpg

That's right..........it's a whole friggin 180 degree's off. I assume that the only way to fix that is to pull the motor and drop the oil pump. Usually not a big deal, but I have run out of money and time. New baby on the way and I really have no more time left to tinker for the summer. So it's just going to have to run like this until this winter when I pull the motor to paint it.

Just friggin ticks me off. This guy I bought this bike from was the absolute worst mechanic ever. He just did what ever he wanted to get the job done. So far, wiring was a hack job, oil pump not lined up right, wrong size bolts are used everywhere, he would loose bolts and then just use a different type or different looking bolt all together just to save time (thats not a huge deal since they would fit, but it drives me nuts they don't look alike), paint job was all screwed (and as you can see he even painted the inside of the motor!), and he stripped bolts from over tightening just to try and stop a leak instead of doing it the correct way by sealing it up with thread locker or thread sealer. Scares me to even think of what it would look like on the inside of the case if I opened it up. [:@] ooooo it just ticks me off!

Randy.......
Sorry to hear of the discovery of the former owners neglect. That is what happens to a lot of machines. People just do not know what they are doing, but they do it anyway.
You are correct in saying that the solution is to remove the engine and then the pump.
However, I believe there is another way to do it, the problem being it takes a special installer/removal tool to remove the pinion gear.
If you could remove the pinion gear, then all you have to do is slip off the oil pump spiral gear behind the pinion and rotate the breather valve tube 180 degrees from where it now sits and you would be in business.
The last time I rebuild my engine I did not have this special tool, so I just made my own at home. The only tricky thing about that is the threaded end that threads into the mainshaft is a 5/16-24 Left Hand Thread. I had to buy a left hand tap and a die, but after that I had the tool.
I included a photo with the different parts needed to make this tool. I took the pic and labeled it after making the tool so that I could easily explain to others how this tool can be made at home. Hope it helps you some.........pg

edit note: This tool as shown is used to install the gear back in place. The fit of the gear is a fairly heavy sliding press fit. To remove the gear, there are a few more pieces not shown, but you can also use any type of puller, as long as the arms will get behind the gear. Also, be sure to protect the center hole in the crankshaft!!! You do not want to damage that or the left hand threads inside the shaft.


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Thats exactly what I was thinking PG. I just wasn't for certain if the oil pump drive gear for the oil pump slid easily off the shaft or if you had to use a gear puller with the oil pump out. But it sounds like, if I caught what you said and I hope I did catch that correctly!, that I should be able to actually just remove the piniongear and slide the drive gear off and then be able to rotate the oil pump breather. Looks like I'm on a venture to either find a way to build a tool to pull it or find a fairly cheap one on ebay.

Thanks again PG. You always seem to come along and help me out and I really appreciate it.

Yes, the oil spiral gear is a slip fit on the shaft. The pinion gear is a tighter fit and that is why it requires a tool. First picture is the tool from the HD manual. I am sure you have the illustration in your manual. See the piece that looks like a 'C' at the end of it? That 'C' lip grabs the back side of the pinion gear and pulls it off when you tighten up the tool. You do not need all the stuff that is shown though, because everything needed can be made in your shop possibly.
I know I made mine in 1996, so that was 4 years before I had a lathe. In other words, I made everything with hand tools in the shop.
Let me go up in the attic to see what I can find related to this tool tomorrow. If I can find the thing, I will be glad to ship it to you for your use to get the gear off and then back on. I haven't seen the tool since I last used it in 1996-1997, but it should be there. I will ping you with the results of the search...........pg


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This operation requires lot off patience... but can be done without removing engine fron frame...
Here is some pics ( by Affe) how he did it
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~affe2/hdlog/20040705/index.html#1150288340

Yes, although he did not mention it, there is a mark on one side of the spiral oil gear. This marked side should face out (towards the pinion gear) when the spiral gear is installed.
It would be easy to install it backwards if you were not aware that it needs to go on correctly.............pg

Oh boy, do I have an answer for this one. I just did this a little while ago. No need to pull the engine, just the pinion gear. Georges Garage has the tool for around $120. good quality and it worked tits. Is this picture with the vertical timing mark lined up in the timing hole? With the vertical mark lined up in the timing hole the breather gear should have the round mark lined up in the breather. The manual has a picture and description of this. Read it carefully, the picture can be misleading. I tried to make a tool for removing the pinion gear but failed and ended up buying one. Where are you at Supr? I still have the tool.

Well, I had a good look this morning and cannot find the tool.
Sorry, but it may have been used for parts for building another type of tool since I made it so long ago.
The fellow who bought one from Vintage Twin and reworked it to make it fit means VT sells the tool, and that may be your best bet. Finding one on Ebay would be a miracle! This is a single purpose tool.
J&P sells the Jim's puller, but it is really expensive at $200.
I will post a response if I happen to find it...........pg

Very good answer Cal, now that I have egg on my face because I could not find the one I made.
$120 for a good tool is cheap compared to pulling the engine out again..........pg

Calwoodbutcher, yah unfortunately the timing mark is straight up in the timing hole. I must have walked back and forth 10 times checking that and looking in the HD manual saying to myself "this can't be right I must have something wrong." Then I would get over to the breather valve look at it and say to myself "damnit, it is right it's installed wrong!" By the way I live in Tennessee.

I appreciate you and PG willing to send me the tools, and if either of you are willing I will pay you shipping and a few extra bucks for your trouble, and I will have that tool back to either of you very quickly. This is by far the best automotive forum I have ever been on, and I have been quite a few. I used to work on customizing Chevy S-10's a while back and I was part of a forum regarding them and the people there were only concerned about how many street races they won. Never a care about helping another person out or building a nice motor. This is the first forum I have been to where people actually care about helping other people out. I think Pyro said it in another thread here but thank God for this forum!

But if either of you don't want to send out the tool, I think it should be fairly simple to aquire the parts around town and get one built for the removal. I just need a 5/16"x24 left hand tread rod, and a piece to go over the piniongear with a 5/16" nut welded in the middle of it.

Biggest thing that has been reassuring is that everyone here has said I should be able to do it with the motor intact. Thats really good news for me.

Thanks again everyone.

Supr, PM me your information and I will mail the tool to you on a loan basis (I hope you have a few days). You cover the postage and return the tool when you are done with it. I am surprised you were not blowing all of the crankcase oil over to the primary side through the relief valve. There would have been no way to relieve the crankcase pressure. I wonder if the previous owner plugged off the relief valve in some way.A lot of people do that and run a primary fluid instead of oil.

Calwoodbutcher, that brings up a good point. Let me ask you a question real quick. Since the breather is not timed correctly and I have not had any problems should I run it as it is? If he had taken other actions like blocking off the relief valve like you say would it harm anything to put the breather valve back in the right posistion?

Here's why I ask this. I don't want to create another issue by fixing what he has done here.

I'll send you a PM anyways and give you my info and get yours to send the shipping costs to you in the mean time.

I really appreciate this. I know you have nothing more than my word, but I promise you the tool will get back to you in the same shape as it was sent off and returned as quickly as I can.

With the breather not timed correctly it does not matter what else was done. The bike will have excessive crankcase pressure. JMHO. There is no other way I can think of to relieve the pressure created by the downstroke of the pistons. If the transfer valve was not plugged off this situation should have filled the primary side with crankcase oil. It sure did in my case!!! Do you know how long was it running in the state it is in? Bad for seals and it would steal a lot of horsepower but might still run for some time. There is a lot of class wrenches here that might know more about this than me. I hope they will chime in.

ORIGINAL: supr2nr

I must have walked back and forth 10 times checking that and looking in the HD manual saying to myself "this can't be right I must have something wrong." Then I would get over to the breather valve look at it and say to myself "damnit, it is right it's installed wrong!"



Beer in one hand and screwdriver in the other, right?

I agree that it sucks but on the '77, the frame is indented right under the oil pump allowing its removal without taki8ng the engine out. I think it's the same for your '76.

Rich

With the breather not timed correctly it does not matter what else was done. The bike will have excessive crankcase pressure. JMHO. There is no other way I can think of to relieve the pressure created by the downstroke of the pistons. If the transfer valve was not plugged off this situation should have filled the primary side with crankcase oil. It sure did in my case!!!

Cal........Good for you regarding the loan of your tool to a fellow member. I could not find the one I had made 10+ years back and was going to suggest that if you could give me the dimensions of the tool I would make one for Supr2nr.
However, seeing your post I see where you have already taken care of the issue.
You are also correct in telling Supr2nr that he needs to get the breather timing done right now before he rides it again. With the pistons coming down and no place to vent the air I would think the bike would have been leaving a puke trail everywhere he rode.

Now I see Pyro just brought up a good point.......does the frame have the offset to allow the pump removal without pulling the engine? It's worth a look anyway. I know Harley made the change sometime after 1974, but I am not sure what year that happened...........pg

got a pict of the indent.

Rich

local://upfiles/5737/A5689B24F04745AB81A87971834D23D0.jpg

Pyro/Piniongear,

The change for the frame to remove the oil pump with the motor in the frame actually started right in 77. :(

77 got all the good stuff. Correct shifter in the primary case on the left side, removable oil pump with engine in frame, and the touring edition was introduced.

It was extremely nice for Calwoodbutcher to loan me the tool as he did. Now I just need to get another cam cover gasket and some more 1/4" threaded rod so I can easily do the cam free end play measurements. That's probably be the most annoying thing ever. That takes so much time to do.

Let me ask you all one last question on this issue so I'm ready for when the pinion gear tool arrives. Is it a huge deal that the alignment mark on the pinion gear is not completely straight up? As you can see in that picture the oil pump drive gear is but the pinion gear is slightly to left. Not by much but a bit though.

The mark on the pinion gear has no bearing on the breather timing. The vertical flywheel timing mark should be straight up and down inside the window and the breather mark should be in the gap in the breather housing. The mark on the pinion will be used to time the cams and will move from where it is located to time the breather. I do believe this to be fact. Oh, the tool is going in priority mail this afternoon (my time) and should be there on Friday I would think.

No!
The position of the mark on the pinion means little, other than it should be pointing in an upward direction.
What is important though......make sure the timing mark is exactly dead center in the hole.
This puts the engine in the correct position for timing the breather.
The pinion gear can only go on one way after that, due to the single larger slot/spline on the pinion shaft and gear.
Then the oil pump breather gear is positioned where the hole lines up with (or very close to) the notch.

Here is something you should check after you get the pinion off:
1) Be sure the 'mark' on the oil spiral gear is facing outward toward the pinion. If you do not see such a mark, remove the spiral gear and turn it over. There should be a slash mark on the face. This mark faces out, then install the pinion after the breather is timed to the notch.
The former 'mechanic' may have put it on backwards.
2) Be sure to note that the pinion gear gets installed until the face of the tool collar seats firmly against the face of the crankcase. This gives you the proper running clearance of 5/16 inch out to the timing cover bushing face when cover is in place...............pg

ORIGINAL: Calwoodbutcher

The mark on the pinion gear has no bearing on the breather timing. The vertical flywheel timing mark should be straight up and down inside the window and the breather mark should be in the gap in the breather housing. The mark on the pinion will be used to time the cams and will move from where it is located to time the breather. I do believe this to be fact. Oh, the tool is going in priority mail this afternoon (my time) and should be there on Friday I would think.


Thank you soooo much! I will get it back to you probably on Monday. It won't take me more than an hour or so to get the gear lined up and cams re-shimmed. I'll get on the ball and get a new CAM cover sent now. Just making sure that the the pinion gear should not be perfectly vertical with the timing mark vertical and in view as well.

Again I really appreciate this.

hey guys, while I'm new to ironheads, I been reading this thread and I wanted to make sure that that breather gear is 1:1 with the crank. It's odd that the gear would be 180 out of phase....if the gear is 1:2 than it is IN PHASE

It's not obvious to me that Harley would have this 1:1 in gearing.

Also, why would you reset the cam thrust....you can use a micrometer to measure the old gasket at an uncrushed point and match it with the new gasket.....I did check these and the gaskets are about .032....

Thank you PG. I will check it all out. Surprisingly the drive gear for the oil pump is actually installed correctly. You can kind of make it out but it's hard, but in that picture I posted the notch on the drive gear is perfectly verticle.

This should be fun! :D

Scuse me for thinking sideways, but if your breather tower is EXACTLY 180 degrees out, it is actually timed right cause there're 2 breather slots in it, hence you do another engine revolution and the dot will be in the middle of the bodyslot, having travelled 180 degrees as it's on a 1/2 ratio same asthe cams...

I can only guess the previous owner did retimed his cams one turn out without disturbing the pump drive...

Patrick

Okay, good experiment. Turn the engine (flywheel) over ONE revolution and see if the mark on the breather lines up in the gap.

I hope he reads the latest 2 posts before he pulls the engine out.

I'm pulling the cam cover now. Give me 30 or so minutes and I will report back.

Okay, I'm soooo sorry. thefrenchowl was correct. Another full revolution of the fly wheel puts my breather in posistion. I am so so sorry. I would have thought that since the flywheel was larger and the breather valve was smaller that would mean that a full revolution of the flywheel would put the breather vavle back in the same posistion. Obviously I am a huge idiot and I am soo sorry to take up everyone's time.

Calwoodbutcher and Piniongear again thank you so much for taking the time even consider helping me out like you did. Thefrenchowl, I can't say thank you enough.

Now can we close this thread so I don't look like a complete idiot to everyone! LOL.

Don't worry, supr2nr,

We've all done silly things in the past...

It's the ones that don'tdo sod all thatdon't make errors, but then, they don't go very far and end up looking like veggies...

We all learn so much more from our mistakes!!!

Patrick

I'm just glad you don't have to pull the motor again. That's way to much work just to get an oil pump out.

Rich

Hey Supr, I doubt if anyone here thinks you look like an idiot. Sometimes it is hard to see the trees for the forest. I am really glad you were able to assertain the breather timing was in line. I told you there were some very class wrenches on this forum. Patrick, nice catch on the exactly 180 degree off idea. I was baffled as to why the engine was running and not experiencing major problems. That explains it. :)

Regardless, I would like to say thank you to everyone. All of your tips lending hands and concerns were much appreciated.