Stage 1 Fuel Management - AIM called out
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Stage 1 Fuel Management - AIM called out - 5/20/2008 6:42:52 AM
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2007fxdc
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Just got the new issue of American Iron yesterday. In the Letters section on page 32 and 34 is a letter to editor, Chris Maida, calling them out on conflicting and confusing articles and past issues about whether fuel management is truly needed, with stage 1 upgrades, or not on today's EFI Harley's. I won't retype the entire letter here but references are made to the April '08 issue where they installed the S&S quick setup with no ECM calibration and boasted that, after running the bike for 10 minutes, the ECM adjusted itself for air/fuel and needed no add-on fuel management. Then, in Sept. '07, an article in "HOG Helpline" stating that "...when changing intake or (notice the word OR not AND there?) exhaust tracts you need to change the fuel map at WOT and possible at idle". And one more reference to a Sept. '06 article "How it works: DrDyno (Fred Eno)" where, among other things, it was quoted "...about half of all Twin Cam Harley engines are rich enough from the factory, and do not need fuel changes for a pipe and air cleaner upgrade (this may explain why many of us have mixed results with certain setups)."
Chris Maida's reply was interesting. Probably worth buying the magazine alone if this subject often perplexes you as much as it does me. Again, I won't type all of it but I'll add this quote: "Regarding how to know if the changes you want to make will require a fuel adjuster, the short answer is you don't. And that leaves you with two choices. Option I: make the intake and exhaust changes and then check the air/fuel chart that the dyno provides. If the ratio is running too lean, add a fuel adjuster and dial it in. Option II: just go with the fuel adjuster from the get-go, since it will definitely give you more power, even if the stock ECM can adjust for the changes. After all, the ECM will keep the air/fuel mixtures very lean to meet EPA requirements. If you don't care about that, a richer mixture is definitely going to give you more power."
Another part of the letter points out that the published article on the S&S quick setup did not show the air/fuel mixture on the dyno chart. I didn't even notice that when I read it. Chris's response to that was: "... though we didn't print it we definitely checked it. In fact, we had a fuel adjuster on hand, but, as our S&S contact told us, we didn't need to use it." He also said: "the stock ECM was able to adjust for it and keep the fuel/air mixture rigth at the H-D and EPA-dictated ratios after being run for about 10 minutes".
Just posting this for FYI - not trying to start yet another "argument" over what's needed for stage 1 and what isn't. After reading this, I do think they agree that the bikes are mostly on the lean side to begin with and the best you are going to get with no fuel management is a bike just as lean as it already was. And, while a fuel adjuster may not be necessary in all cases, they certainly don't hurt if you want a little more "juice".
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RE: Stage 1 Fuel Management - AIM called out - 5/20/2008 7:41:05 AM
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flynavy
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Nice thread start Q!!
Can't wait to read the article in total later today!
Again, being "the number one magazine for harley lovers" carries with it a certain responsibility to it's readers to be at the very least, technically smart, accurate and consistent.
AIM has been anything but when it comes to EFI since 2006. I understand more about fuel management, enricheners, open loop vs. closed loop, and all the applications much much better now than I did a year ago when I bought the bike. Research, research, and more research has educated me, yet STILL, many questions remain definitively unanswered, and EPA or no EPA, I believe the MoCo should open the box and let out the true information based on the science of engineering:
1) Stock A/F ratios are approx 14.7:1. This is considered lean. Is this harmful to the TC96 in terms of longevity and maintenance?
2) If you increase the cfm intake, and exhaust, typically HP and torque will improve to a degree. Is an increase in fuel delivery absolutley necessary to maintain the engine's longevity? Just "how much" will the ECU compensate for? That spec is nowehere to be found. Trust me, I've looked. It is "described" in many articles as being able to compensate for slight changes in altitude and/or intake conditions. How slight is slight?
There is a point at which you can run too rich; backfiring will result, sometimes fouled plugs, etc. It's a tangible condition which can lead to adverse operation of valves, and other vital engine parts. One would think a mixture too lean would also have adverse effects, just because we all grew up in a carborated world. BUT....maybe, just maybe too lean is just plain okay!
I think one AIM article in particular is very interesting at it's very core: the S&S quick set-up. I do tend to believe that if stock calibration for the mixture is 14.7, after the O2 sensors do their thing and the ECM compensates for the increased airflow (it is designed to do that remember, we are all just not certain exactly how much that is) you still end up back at 14.7. I don't believe you will run any leaner with the additional airflow, just back at 14.7 - it's a Delphi-programmed set point.
If the airflow is increased, you should expect more power and performance because to get back to 14.7 the ECM is going to have to add some fuel to the new scenario. How much you get is debatable, and I feel it's not enough to invest in the project to begin with, but that's my own opinion. If you want a change in sound - go get new pipes and leave the rest alone.
If you want more power and performance along with better sound, stay away form the "Kits." Get the exhaust you like the best for it's looks and sound, then get what you believe will be the best fit for your bike in an air breather, and then do "something" that will allow enhanced fuel delivery in BOTH closed and open loop operation. SERT will do this. PCIII can, but sometimes falls short due to it's own limitations. The Fuelpak, Doherty PowerPak, and other in-line "set it and forget it modules" cannot do both. These are primarily available for the rider at anywhere from 3200 rpm and up depending on the device you install. If you ride around tweaking the throttle at every turn, you'll richen up a bit. If you ride in town, normal speeds, in traffic, or even at 65 in 6th gear, the module is NEVER engaged.
These new IED's (voltage dividers that decrease the signal voltage back to the ECM from the O2 sensors causing more fuel delivery) now seem to me to be the best option for both worlds. They DO most definately richen your fuel mixture from idle on up to high rpm. If you run a PCIII or FP, or another module, you will come very close to a consistent A/F mixture richer than stock throughout the entire rpm range. If you just install IED's with or without new pi
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RE: Stage 1 Fuel Management - AIM called out - 5/20/2008 10:01:05 AM
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2007fxdc
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TJ, regardless of HD and/or AIM's disclosures, reading this makes me feel a little better about all of the differing results and opinions on this subject here. If AIM has mixed results based on what they are testing and what they are testing it on, it's no wonder we have people that are happy with a certain config while someone else says the same thing for them was crap. It also makes one wonder how something like Fuelpak can ever be consistent across the board because the codes they give out are developed on a bike that may look like ours but may not run exactly like ours. I think I'm one of the "lucky" ones but probably would not have purchased knowing there are variables that may not allow it to work properly on my specific bike. Nobody wants to dish out a lot of money for dyno time but I'm thinking Chris Maida's option 1 above may not be a bad idea - put on the pipes and a/c of choice, check the air/fuel mix on a dyno, and go from there. If you are close but need more fuel, perhaps a plug n play fuel manager is all you need, maybe combined with the IED's to get the fuel across the entire band. If you are just way off and need some serious tuning, then go with a tunable device and be prepared to pay for some serious dyno time.
Bottom line, this letter and the response resolves nothing for us. But maybe it does justify some of the arguments and why 1 of us will say a particular config is a good way to go while the next person comes along and says it's crap.
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2007 FXDC
SE 180 rear
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Stage 1 Complete
Kuryakyn Forward Controls
Progressive 412 HD
Jackyl 2" Tank Lift
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RE: Stage 1 Fuel Management - AIM called out - 5/20/2008 10:10:02 AM
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Slipstrm
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Very good info, its been interesting to see the various setups and opinions that go with them regarding whats right, wrong and/or just simply works for a individual machine.
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RE: Stage 1 Fuel Management - AIM called out - 5/20/2008 10:24:50 AM
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Chipstah
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Thanks guys for the thread and discussion. Ya, my head still hurts too! But more info is always better - LOL, if on occasion confusing to this ol' brain of mine.
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RE: Stage 1 Fuel Management - AIM called out - 5/20/2008 12:03:01 PM
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hk_shooter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2007fxdc
TJ, regardless of HD and/or AIM's disclosures, reading this makes me feel a little better about all of the differing results and opinions on this subject here. If AIM has mixed results based on what they are testing and what they are testing it on, it's no wonder we have people that are happy with a certain config while someone else says the same thing for them was crap. It also makes one wonder how something like Fuelpak can ever be consistent across the board because the codes they give out are developed on a bike that may look like ours but may not run exactly like ours. I think I'm one of the "lucky" ones but probably would not have purchased knowing there are variables that may not allow it to work properly on my specific bike. Nobody wants to dish out a lot of money for dyno time but I'm thinking Chris Maida's option 1 above may not be a bad idea - put on the pipes and a/c of choice, check the air/fuel mix on a dyno, and go from there. If you are close but need more fuel, perhaps a plug n play fuel manager is all you need, maybe combined with the IED's to get the fuel across the entire band. If you are just way off and need some serious tuning, then go with a tunable device and be prepared to pay for some serious dyno time.
Bottom line, this letter and the response resolves nothing for us. But maybe it does justify some of the arguments and why 1 of us will say a particular config is a good way to go while the next person comes along and says it's crap.
Thanks for the info, I can't wait for the mailperson to deliver my new issue.
I agree with your 'bottom line', Greg.
I'm just a bit perplexed as to why the same bike, same engine, etc. can be so different.
Just curious...have you had yours dyno'd?
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RE: Stage 1 Fuel Management - AIM called out - 5/20/2008 12:17:18 PM
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2007fxdc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hk_shooter
Just curious...have you had yours dyno'd?
Not yet but I've been intending to even before the article, etc. I'll probably take it to the next local dealer I see having a "dyno day". I don't expect to win any competition but it will be a cheap or even free way to check it out.
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2007 FXDC
SE 180 rear
Lepera Bare Bones
V&H Big Radius
Stage 1 Complete
Kuryakyn Forward Controls
Progressive 412 HD
Jackyl 2" Tank Lift
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RE: Stage 1 Fuel Management - AIM called out - 5/20/2008 12:51:28 PM
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Punty
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Thanks for the info
It really shows that, One Size Does Not Fit All
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RE: Stage 1 Fuel Management - AIM called out - 5/20/2008 12:56:01 PM
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hk_shooter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Punty
Thanks for the info
It really shows that, One Size Does Not Fit All
Or possibly, "one size fits all, just none really well".
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RE: Stage 1 Fuel Management - AIM called out - 5/20/2008 12:56:13 PM
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labfreak
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Just to add some more confusing comments:
You run the risk of burning a valve or piston if you go hiflo a/c and pipes and don't richen the AFR because more air with the same fuel means a hotter burn. (counter intuitive, you'd think more fuel would result in a hotter burn?, but then I remembered those old bunsen burners in school? how we'd adjust the air to get them going just right)
High efficiency does not equal high performance, that's why valve overlap exists, and why EPA rules cause HD to ship out hot running motorcycles.
A dyno check is a good idea, especially if you have no idea where your AFR is.
If your bike runs pretty well, and you aren't after high performance, let it be.
I will be changing cams soon and really 'effing up the works!  at which time I will probably go with a SERT and a full Dyno tune. ( and a head porting job...etc...etc..it just goes on and on..)
It is all fun though, isn't it?
But then again
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RE: Stage 1 Fuel Management - AIM called out - 5/21/2008 6:24:39 AM
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flynavy
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The thing is though, what AIM (ie Chris Maida) is claiming (sorta) is that under some circumstances, the ECM will adjust to maintain the very same mixture with add-on intakes and exhaust set-ups. So, just because you add more air to a 14.7 mix, doesn't mean it will degrade to 15 or higher, because the ECM will adjust fuel delivery to get back to the setpoint - 14.7:1. From all I have read, I do believe that piece of data.
For what it's worth - and I full well know it will never happen - I wish HD would go back to making carb bikes...or at the very least offer it as an option, tune it up to meet EPA specs, then let the owner tune it to their heart's content.
These bikes are OURS once we plunk the cash down. Having set-ups to meet regulations, and then telling us as owners it's what is best for us, and keeping all the tuning info this big mystery, is like the book 1984, and Big Brother knows how to take care of us commoners. BS
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2007 FXDB
Stage I
Vance & Hines Straightshots
Ness Big Sucker A/C
V&H Fuelpak
Nightrider XIED's
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RE: Stage 1 Fuel Management - AIM called out - 5/21/2008 10:21:19 AM
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ozfree
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Cmon guys, think about this......you have a brand new bike, you put pipes and A/C on it, dyno check it and you're within range. The ECU adjusts back to 14.7 which was set by HD. At this point, I'm not worried about melting a piston or a valve because I know what kind of research and development that HD did including hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of testing that goes into these motors (destructive and non destructive) before they even hit the market. I'm sure this motor will be just fine.
I've been telling people to get their bikes dyno checked before making a decision on completely changing the way the thing runs. That's the only way to make an informed decision, period. I think we all can agree on that. I also feel bad for the guy who dumped money into a fuel pak and it fried his ECU.......That's bad news!
Does my bike run hot? Perhaps a little. It even pings a little after sitting at idle in traffic because the fuel is predetonating (due to heat). This also happend with my other slip ons as well though (but not as often). This could also be because the quality of hightest gasoline in the tanks has not been good lately. Price is so high, nobody is buying it, so it sits, etc.......Could be anything
Bottom line, I'm not worried about it. I do agree that we need some cut and dry info from HD on how their ECU is setup, but that would put a dent in their screamin eagle race tuner sales and dyno time for sure!
But thanks for the 411 fxdc. It's good info!
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RE: Stage 1 Fuel Management - AIM called out - 5/21/2008 10:38:27 AM
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labfreak
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So the ECM is a 'dynamic' device, where it can 'sense and adjust' to varying air/fuel conditions...maybe it can, does anyone have any definitive data on this?
If it does, then why do so many dealers say you can void your warranty if you put on aftermarket pipes, A/C?
I also would like to know exactly what the 'stage 1 download' does, I heard it just resets the rev lmiter into the 6000rpm range.
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RE: Stage 1 Fuel Management - AIM called out - 5/21/2008 11:10:51 AM
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2007fxdc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ozfree
I also feel bad for the guy who dumped money into a fuel pak and it fried his ECU.......That's bad news!
That has not been proven and, although it was said there was a rumor that it happens, I haven't heard it and find it strange that not one single member here has reported that happening for fact. The guy took his bike in with a fried ECM and the dealer service department imediately blamed the fuelpak just because it was there (imagine that...). V&H's was contacted and said they weren't aware of this happening and even offered to take the bad ECM and the fuelpak and test it at their cost and at their facility to see if that could have been the cause. The guy with the problem also admitted to having a stripped 02 sensor wire that also feeds into the ECM and could have caused the problem instead of the fuelpak.
Again, I didn't intend this thread to be another argument over what's "crap" and what isn't. I was simply putting the information out there for consideration. But, I admit I knew in the back of my mind, it would turn into this.
Freak, as for your question about it being a dynamic device - yes, it definitely is. It uses data gathered from the O2 sensors, etc. to constantly make adjustments in fuel delivery to try and stay at the predetermined, and arguably EPA mandated lean air/fuel setting. Depending on the environment the bike is being run in and the degree of changes (i.e. a/c and exhaust), it can and will only adjust so far. If what you have is outside of that range, the fuel delivery needs a "boost" beyond what the ECM is capable of doing and that's where fuel managers, IED's, etc. come in to play. My take on what the stage 1 download does is adjust for extra fuel and bump the rev limiter up as well but only to an end that meets the EPA mandated air/fuel mixture. If you are like ozfree and can live with that, then go for it. If you want a cooler bike, a richer mixture, and a tad more power, then some sort of fuel management in place of or in addition to the download is needed.
With all that said, my setup was clearly outside that range as my bike was hotter than it already was and I was getting a lot of decel popping. I didn't get the download but I did add a fuelpak and the differences were positive, immediate, and very noticeable as far as throttle response and power. But, the ECM by itself clearly wasn't able to adjust enough by itself, on my bike.
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2007 FXDC
SE 180 rear
Lepera Bare Bones
V&H Big Radius
Stage 1 Complete
Kuryakyn Forward Controls
Progressive 412 HD
Jackyl 2" Tank Lift
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