2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

I have been looking at lots of things here on the forum (very impressed) and ran across the 8 degree and 25 degree debate. I went out the the garage and looked and I have the 8 degree part #. The bike runs great (some popping on decel), should I bring this issue up to the dealer to upgrade them to the 25's ?????? or just leave well enough alone.
Let me know what you guys think or have done in this situation.
Thanks
Brandon

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

I had mine changed out at the 1000 mile service........much better performance and no charge so why not?:eek:

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

Take the bike for a test ride.

Whenever I ride in a parking lot and try to hold the throttle steady at 18-20MPH (first gear) the bike surges like crazy. I'm taking it in next week for the injectors and am hoping it fixes it.

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

I've got 8's and my bike runs PERFECTLY. No need for me to change anything. There are many others on this forum that run the 8's as well. It really all depends on how your bike runs.

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

I just got mine chnaged out...much better that the 8s. Mine ran great with the 8s for while but after 4k developed some problems.

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

After reading the posts on the forum, I called my dealer about the 8's verses the 25's. My bike is a mid-year 05' FXDLI (mfg. 3/05). They said they would check and if they are the 8's, they would be replaced under warranty. I had the Stage I and Python's installed at delivery but it has always "popped" on decel and will surge slightly at low speeds. My question is this: Most of you are reporting this issue on the 06's. Was the 05's included as well? The dealer knows the year of my bike and did not hesitate about offering to check it out.

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

The issue was with the 06 FI Dynas....it's not a recall but a TSB. But if you are having issues your dealer should have it fixed N/C.

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

M-1185 1 of 2
SERVICE BULLETIN
M-1185 February 20, 2006
FUEL INJECTOR/CALIBRATION CHANGES FOR 2006 1450cc
BIG TWINS
®
Purpose
It has recently been determined that the 8
°
angle cone spray
fuel injectors used on 2006 1450cc Big Twins may cause cold
start and/or driveability problems on some motorcycles.
In the interest of promoting customer satisfaction, the 25
°
angle cone spray fuel injectors used on CVO 103 cu. in.
(1690cc) motors will be installed on all production Big Twins
beginning on or around February 13, 2006.
Additionally, Harley-Davidson will provide for the installation
of 25
°
angle cone spray fuel injectors on those motorcycles
where use of the 8
°
fuel injectors (part number 27625-06) is
determined to be directly responsible for cold start and/or
driveability problems. See REQUIRED DEALER ACTION.
NOTE
Due to changes in the manufacturing process, the part number
of the 25
°
angle cone spray fuel injector is changing from
27709-06 to 27709-06A. This fuel injector also will be
stamped with the words “25 DEG” for easy identification. See
Figure 1.
Motorcycles Affected
Only 2006 1450cc Big Twin model motorcycles that exhibit
cold start and/or driveability problems directly related to use
of 8°
angle cone spray fuel injectors (including those subsequently
equipped with P&A Screamin’ Eagle 1450cc or
1550cc Performance Kits).
Required Dealer Action
1. Adhere to the flow chart in Figure 2 when handling customer
complaints regarding cold start and/or driveability
problems on affected motorcycles.
2. If the flow chart indicates that the fuel injectors are the
source of the problem, check the part numbers stamped
on the fuel injectors. While standing on the left side of
the motorcycle, the part number on the rear fuel injector
can be easily read with the aid of a flashlight.
3. If required, remove both 8
°
angle cone spray fuel injectors
following the procedure in the applicable 2006 Service
Manual. Install 25
°
fuel injectors, either part number
27709-06 or 27709-06A.
Figure 1. Fuel Injector Part Numbers
f2447x8x
Old Style 8°
Fuel Injector
New Style 25°
Fuel Injector
NOZZLE END
IMPORTANT NOTE
In the interest of preserving customer safety and satisfaction, always check for outstanding recalls whenever any motorcycle is brought into your
dealership for either maintenance or service.
©2006 HARLEY-DAVIDSON MOTOR COMPANY
ROUTING SERVICE
MANAGER
SALES
MANAGER
PARTS
MANAGER
LEAD
TECHNICIAN
TECHNICIAN
NO.1
TECHNICIAN
NO. 2
TECHNICIAN
NO. 3
TECHNICIAN
NO. 4
RETURN
THIS TO
INITIAL HERE
M-1185 2 of 2
NOTE
Always replace both 8
°
angle cone spray fuel injectors on
affected motorcycles. Never mix 8
°
and 25
°
fuel injectors on
the same motorcycle.
NOTE
If the part numbers on the fuel injectors are rubbed off or otherwise
unreadable, count the number of orifices or holes in
the injector nozzle. The 8
°
angle cone spray fuel injector has
just three holes, while the 25
°
has six. See NOZZLE END in
Figure 1.
4. Update the ECM calibration. For those motorcycles
equipped with P&A Screamin’ Eagle 1450cc or 1550cc
Performance Kits, refer to h-dnet.com for the correct calibration
P/N.
Credit Procedure
Complete a separate warranty claim for each vehicle
serviced. Reference Service Bulletin M-1185 in the
“Comments” or “Notes” section and be sure to include the VIN
of the vehicle on which the service was performed. Fill in the
rest of the claim as follows:
Performance calibrations require pre-authorization from Technical
Service to be considered for warranty coverage unless
listed on the SWR.
Upon receipt of the properly completed claim, you will receive
the labor credit shown above.
Figure 2. Cold Start/Driveability Flow Chart
Correct condition or install
com

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

this guy (KB) has an above average dealer ...I have the 8s and my runs well too when I inquired about the change with
the dealer they wanted to "look" at it and see how it was performing,I.E. starts and surges I knew it was fine and was not going to lie about it nor argue the point ...I may be mistaken but each injector is 92 dollars out of pocket I stayed with the crazy 8s-phucum

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

There is no debate, if your dealer will put them on without a hassle then have them put the 25° injectors in. My dealer ordered mine the day the bulletin came out and installed them a little over a week later around the end of February. I had the cold start problem after the bike sat over night no matter how warm it was as I live in Phoenix. It would also cough and quit sometimes before it warmed up. Everything was fine after the 25° injectors were installed. Also they started installing them on all big twins after the middle of Feb. coming out of the factory.:D

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

Just keep in mind,some bikes run fine with the eight degree injectors and some don't. Injector change may not be the problem. Mine came with the twenty five degree injectors and still didn't do right. Surge and bucking at just off idle and just about any low rpm. Dealer says normal,within tolerance. Problem solved with PCIII,smooth as silk but worse gas mileage. Just had dyno tune and all setttings were rich from fuel moto map. Haven't checked gas mileage yet but even more power and smoothness and figure gas mileage will be better too. Just filled up tonite,will know in a coupla days.

Good Luck

Tom

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

I have been reading about this injector situation for months. What baffles the crap out of me is the statement " some are OK and some are not ". For crying out loud there has to be some science with this. Is it luck or magic if you happen to have a bike that works?
F#*% no, either these 8 degree injectors work or they don't, this is not a multiple choice question, it is a black or white question.
I have an 06 FXDI 35 with 8 degree injectors and my dealer don't want to change them, I even offered to split the cost. The more I read, there attitude is starting to piss me off. I find this some do, some don't, approach to be ignorant. For God's sake this is machinery we are talking about, not humans, either these things are right or they are wrong.
If I am wrong, that is like saying 2 + 2= 3 So I aint buying "some do and some don't." ( Thanks I feel better now )

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

No, it is not black and white. Every bike is different, every bike is a law unto itself. Just like if you took 100 bikes (or cars or anything else) off the assembly line and dynoed them all 10 times each on the same dyno, no two would average the same. Just because they're "machines" doesn't mean they are all completely and utterly identical right down to the finest detail. One tiny difference with the injectors themselves can mean the difference between heaven and hell.

I have the 8° injectors and mine runs just fine, even at 95". Others have huge problems right from the start. Atmospheric conditions probably play as much a role as anything else. If it was causing problems with almost every single bike put out, there would've been a lot more pissed off people and they would've had to do a recall. As it stands, some have problems, some don't. Like it or not, that's the reality of it.


The problem only affects `06's. Up to `05, the injectors worked fine and had a higher flow rate.

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

"every bike is a law unto itself" As much as we like to customize our bikes, as they come from the factory the components are exactly the same. Yes, you can have a faulty component, but you replace it with a good component made to the exact same specifications. ( not one of a different size or configuration ) I know I am getting into a bucket of worms here but Harley Davidson isn't the only people on earth who uses fuel injection.
Ford, Chevy, Dodge, BMW, Honda, Yamaha, etc, etc don't ship vehicles of the same model with different injectors. Yes even the components in your beloved Harley's are mass produced. ( probably in China or Mexico ) Some of you may think your bike has it's own soul and personality and is uniquely individual, but it just aint so. ( also, there really aint no santa claus)
Companies routinely make 10,000 engines with the exact same injectors and they all work. If one don't because of the injectors, they replace the injectors with the same part. They don't put a different size or design in each engine to make it work.
I am not a history buff but I seem to remember it was Henry Ford that perfected mass production. Since that time, quality standards and CNC machinery has perfected the exactness of components.
The only exception to this is of coarse things shipped to California. But someday California will fall into the pacific and things will return to normal. I maintain that it is indeed black or white.

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

I hate to say it, but I have to agree with jackson here. These bikes do come off an asembly line. And while atmospheric conditions do play some part in how a machine might behave, I don't think it's enough to be the root cause of this issue. Another thing that no one has mentioned yet is the most simple fact...the individual rider also plays a major role here. Let me explain. I'm the type of person who doesn't really let inaccuracies bother me. If there's a little bit of surging, or poping, I don't really mind. At the same time, someone else may totally not accept that. So the truth is, while someone who claims the bike is running "perfectly", a different person riding the same bike would say there's a problem. Don't think for a second the Motor Company doesn't realize this. In the end, the bikes are all the same....and there's no doubt that there may be slight differences in how they run, they should all behave identically. One could argue..."well...what about lemon law when speaking about cars". Of course this is an issue..but that's one car out of 100...or 1000..whatever. If this was a lemon law issue, there wouldn't be this many people complaining about the issue.

In my opinion, every single bike that is affected by this TSB should be fixed by a dealer...no questions asked. If HD doesn't want to do a full recall, that's one thing...but it obviously is a condition and should be addressed for every single customer who brings it up. I, personally, don't mind the way my bike runs...I would be one of the folks who would claim my bike is running "perfectly". And yet, I know that the bike does pop occasionally and there is a little bit of surging...but the key difference between me and the guy who says his bike needs the injectors changed is that I don't really give a $hit. At this point, I'm more interested in seeing what my dealer will say if I do bring it up.


Todd

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

I have an 06 WG with 8 degree injectors. I have had absolutely no problems-the bike runs great. I thought about changing them to the 25 degree injectors before my dyno tune and custom map at 1000 miles, but decided against it. I have never regretted that decision.

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

I'm not referring to soul or personality and no, you're not breaking my heart about Santa Claus either. What I'm referring to is the sum of all those tiny differences inherent in ANY mass produced product. No, they are not all the same. They are mass produced and are subject to every discrepency inherent in any mass produced product. I'm sure that much of it is automated but there is still a great human factor involved from the smallest component to the major assemblies. "Within spec" can be a rather wide range. The grand sum of those discrepencies can manifest itself in any way. How the bike runs, how hot it runs, how different moving parts wear, how it shifts, throttle response, compression, blow-by, oil consumption, etc. So some are a little better than others, some are average, some are poorer but acceptable while just a small few have a huge conglomeration of negative factors and that's why we have lemon laws.

So yeah, when they are playing along a fine line to get these bikes EPA compliant and running them lean anyway, any one bike under particular circumstances can behave differently from one that came off the assembly line right behind it under different conditions. If they were all the same, they all would have problems and a recall would be issued. That is simply not the case. The irrefutable truth is that some work and some don't. We don't even really know what the problem is with the 8° injectors. We only know the specs of the two in question. We don't know if there were quality control problems with those injectors or if it's a design or application flaw. The 25° CVO injectors could've just been a quicker, easier, cheaper fix.

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

Does that mean that me and other California riders are going to have to wait for Harley to do a service bulletin to change our bikes from air-cooled to underwater-cooled bikes? And I just got mine out of the shop too... :D :) ;)

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

You make a very good point Craig...but the idea of "within spec" being a wide range is really a relative term, and really isn't wide in the grand scheme of things....if it was, it would be very hard to maintain any quality control whatsoever. In this case, that is perhaps a good argument. The fact that the problem itself isn't detrimental to the bike or the rider is evidence of this. I still stand by my point, especially regarding this issue. Some may consider this a major problem, others may not...even if both are experiencing the same exact symptoms. I would imagine that someone who has never had a motorcycle, gets his/her first harley and experiences this...they may see this as something that demands attention. I have owned several bikes, and all of them have had their own quirks...personalities if you will. My last ride...a 2001 Vstar 1100..popped and sputtered like a mofo. I learned to live with it. Whether I should've or not is irrelevant. If my new harley is poping and surging, it's nothing compared to my last ride. Therefore, I have a very hard time finding reason to complain.


Todd

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

I agree with what Todd has introduced into this debate. Each of us has a different level of what is acceptable. Craig, I didn't mean to say that because they are mass produced, they will all run exactly the same. What you are referring to is called accumulation of tolerances or accumulation of errors. Quality programs are maintained to keep these accumulations under control. If the end result is that something don't work right they go back and tighten the tolerance in the area under question. Normally you don't introduce a different part design or size.
Also, "work or don't work" is a misunderstood generalization. They all work. As Todd eludes to, some work a little better then others, or each of us is more or less accepting of how they work.
Maybe this is something we could all agree with. I guarrantee you that even if it slight, one of these injectors is better then the other. And I'm betting the 25 is better because that is what they are currently using. Somewhere at HD there is an Engineer who knows the facts. Also at HD is a bean counter who knows what this would cost to fix. If they can get away with only fixing half of them they will probably save a million dollars. Unfortunately for us the bean counter almost always trumps the engineer. Thus the engineer is silenced.
My bike has the 8's. It runs decent but not as good as it could. My dealer is resisting changing them out and I have accepted that for now. However, I will continue to monitor performance during the warranty period and if things deteriorate, i will be more insisting that they change them.
What is sad about this is we pay alot for these bikes, if HD is the company they claim to be then why are they letting bean counters call the shots. I guess I was a little wrong, it is not black or white, it is a perfect gray. Thanks Todd !

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

Thanks for all the great info. I have been riding alot since I posted this and it runs great. So I think I will leave well enough alone for now. Its still under warranty so I will just keep an eye on things for now.

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

ok, i'm a moron. where do i look? LOL. i've tried searching, but no luck.

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

Here you go, almost everything you need to know about the 25° injectors is stated below. :D

All 06 fuel injected Big Twins built before the middle of February 2006 have 8°
injectors installed. After that date they started installing 25° CVO injectors in all big
twins leaving the factory and a bulletin came out that said, any bike that was
experiencing problems like coughing and surging or cold start problems should have
the 8° injectors replaced with the 25° injectors by the dealer under warranty. The
Service Bulletin # is M-1185 which describes the problems stated above
and the ones my 06 RK had. My injectors were replaced about 10 days after
the bulletin came out and took care of my problems. The cold start problem
doesn't mean that it was hard staring in cold temps., it meant it wouldn't
start right off after sitting for an extended period of time like overnight.
My RK took 3 or 4 tries before it started and ran and even then would cough
and quit at times. If your bike was built before the middle of Feb. 06 then
it has the 8° injectors in it. It is easy to check by looking in toward the
rear cylinder from the left side past the horn cover and you can then see
the rear injector. Use a flashlight as it makes it easier to see. If the
number printed on it is C01 and 27625-06 then it is the 8° injector. If the
number printed on it is C01 25 DEG and 27709-06A then you have the new 25°
CVO injectors. The 25° injectors will fix these problems.

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

Just had mine changed out a week ago and I am overly impressed at how much of the problem is now gone.
The way I see it is that if I am paying this much for two wheels, it had better run great. Now I am not talking about fast, just correctly. When I get into my car, it does not cough or surge and it is older so there is no way in hell that I will stand around while my bike is doing this and have a stealer stand around and tell me "Hey, it is a Harley and this is what they do". BS!!
A few days after I first took the bike to the stealer and told them what it was doing and they said the obove statement, well I let them know that this was not going to work for me. On my way home, I came up to an intersection. Stopped and went to cross and half way there it coughed. Now if you have never experienced this, I pray you do not have to especilly if traffic is coming towards you. After this, I had a final discussion with the stealer and how it would alot cheaper to replace the injectors per the bulletin rather than dealing with an injury attourney.
So if your bike is surging, or coughing, take it to the stealer with a copy of M-1185 and make them replace the injectors, you will be alot happier. Good luck everyone.

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

I bought my 06' on march 2 2006 and it was put together with the 25 degree injectors already on there.

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

I finally calmed down about this and soneone had to go and bring it up again..........Jackson

RE: 2006 dyna 8 degree injectors
 

I did a search and found this old thread, I installed the V&H ShortShot Staggered Exhaust and V&H FuelPak along with the K&N Stage 1 air cleaner and I have popping on decel along with hesitation/spitter/sputter issues. I called Vance and Hines and they said the root cause is the 8 degree injectors and that I need to switch to the 25 degree injectors to correct the issue. I called the dealer and they said that they cover the repair only if the bike is in warranty or in the extended warranty periods. My bike is out of warranty so this sucks!!! I called V&H back and they said that they do not have any other settings for my bike/exhaust setup for the fuelpak and that the only fix is to change the injectors.

What can I do? Is my only choice to pull the money out of my pocket to get the injectors changed out?

Hassle from dealer replacing the 8's with the 25's injectors
 

holy crap, this is exacty what i plan to run into when i take mine in to try and get the dealer to replace the injectors. I cant believe they would actually be troubleshooting to see if you are lying or not. For GODS SAKE. Why would i be there if I was'nt having the problem to begin with? My bike has been acting exactly like all the describtions I have read here regarding this issue since I bought it in 2007 with 1300 miles on it. I have changed wires and plugs thinking that was it. It didnt fix it, so I have been riding the bike for 2 1/2 years dealing with these issues and stumbled across this forum and low and behold now I know why it's been running like CRAP.. I'm taking mine in 2morrow and hope 4 the best. You would think that it would be an automatic thing 4 the dealers to do, just like a recall with a big car manufacturer. I guess I will find out 2morrow when I take it in. I am one persistant muthafudger, with a degree in paralegal technology and if they refuse me I will simply fill out a small claims court document, pay the $30.00 filing fee, and have a buddy ride there with me and serve it on them. Based on my or any ones elses' obvious knowlledge, they would not even respond to the small claim court lawsuit and I would simply print out statements made on this blog, present it to the presiding judge and win a default judgment against the dealer for failing to respond to the suit within 30 days as required by law and then take it down and have it fixed. I would hate to think that I would have to go through all that, but READERS, I promise you I will have the injectors replaced.
Now that I have that out of the way, I have a question for anyone out there that may know the answer to this question which is....Can the technician do this calibration that I've been reading about and fix the problem, or do the injectors need to be switched out? If that will fix it, then I'm happy. Any response or advise from anyone would be greatly appreciated. I was even thinking ahead of time about contacting corporate headquarters B/4 even going to the local dealer and maybe get some information from them to relate to local dealer that would make it a no brainier for the dealer to just swap em out.

thanks for listening
LITTLEBIT2454

Well this is an old thread, but it raised a few questions for me. I went out and checked mine and they are the 8 degree injectors. Mine has some of the symptoms described and I was wondering how replacing them with the the 25 degree injectors will affect my PCIII map. Would I need the bike re-tuned? Has anyone had luck having these replaced for free without warranty? I may try HD customer service to see if they would hook me up.

I called the dealer on mine and they said since they are out of warranty they wont do it for free. It was a TSB, not a recall.

That being said, the switch-out is easy, and the parts can be ordered from one of the online discount parts dealers.

Mine got replaced recently and a warranty claim was made that covered the cost. As far as remapping with the pcIII the answer is yes, it has to be done. As a matter of fact I probably wouldn't take it to the dealer with a driveability complaint hoping to get the injectors replaced with a pcIII on it. You are just giving them the ability to place the blame on something other than the injectors. When I took mine in I had the factory air cleaner and exhaust on it. They looked at it, ordered the parts and replaced them a week later when they came in.