Sorry and I tried to be a good forum user and limit your boredom, but I searched for over an hour and 500+ threads, can't find the info I seek.

Story is I need to do a stock rebuild on a 2000 Ultra MM EFI bike that has a bad crank with just over 62,000 miles. (Run out .034" rt, .021" lt, bad grooves in pinion.) Not my day job (yet) and owner I'm doing this is a rider not hot-rodder. Neither he (nor I) want to fiddle with tuning for 95", cams, etc. Intent is rebuilding stock for durability and ease of use, hit the button and go, and ride it over 100k. Owner doesn't want to buy a newer bike. Be his luck he'd get one with a bad crank anyway...

That said, I've found a basically complete used 04 88" engine disassembled top to bottom less the cases, pump, plate & lifters advertised having less than 400 miles for $800 / offer. I'm guessing the stuff has been sitting in a box for alot of years and it all looks really clean no rust.

I figure I'd send the 04 crank and his bottom end to Darkhorse to fit the tapered bearings, do their magic to the crank and reassemble. When back I'd fit a gear drive, new lifters, etc and reassemble the top end with the rest of the 04 cams(?) pistons, cylinders and heads. When done it should be good as new with a better than new crank.

So my question is, what is the "right price" for the used stock 88 parts in your opinion under these circumstances?

I realize not much demand, other than maybe the crank, but I think this would be a real money & time saver for this kind of build. I don't have the top end pulled down yet, but I'd expect with 62k we'd probably be looking at boring for +.010 over pistons and I can do up the heads in my home shop but that's more parts & labor too.

Thanks in advance for your feedback. Feel free to add your comments or suggestions on this kind of build?

Ol' Biker will appreciate it!

 

Check your oil pump and cam plate. A crank with that much runout might have caused more damage than you realize.

I paid about 300 (shipping included) for a forged crankshaft a couple of years ago off of ebay. It ended up being unrepairable so I bought an S&S crankshaft - something I should have done in the first place.

A few years ago I bought (later sold) a pair of '00-'04 heads for a couple hundred + shipping. My plan was to have them ported, then turn around and sell my existing heads but having matching numbers meant more to me than down time.

I've also given parts away that I knew I would never use again because I'd rather have the space.

 

I'd suggest to check flea bay, to get a feel as what to expect.
Never bought or sold an 88"er here, so no input as to what they go for.
Scott

 

That is not a bad price if you need all and are going to use all the parts.
I have bought several top ends for my bike on ebay and take off stuff for 88 is getting more expensive.
Two hundred for pistons, jugs is normal, heads three, two fifty for crank.
IF you are going gears your old cam plate should be fine, and you can have your heads rebuilt for less than a hundred bucks with just a tree angle valve job, so you really don't need the heads.
If it was my bike, before I did anything I would call darkhorse and get an idea of what they are talking about.
I would also call hillside and talk to them on the phone they are very reputable and I would not hesitate having them do the work.
I would also call Kirby Apathy of v-twin racing, he did my bottom end, rebuilt and welded the crank for a lot less money than it would have cost me to send it to dark horse.

 

Would respectfully disagree with this statement, camplate tolerances and strength play a large role in success of a gear driven cam install, ensuring proper gear lash. Better to stay with a hydraulic cam chain tensioner setup if you are not willing to pony up for a top-quality camplate (ie R&R, Dan Thayer, S&S, etc).

 

I was talking about whether or not he needed to replace it with the 04 cam plate that is the same as his old plate and of course that depends on the condition of his old plate.
Not if he should upgrade or not.
After posting that if his run out was that bad his old plate is probably trashed.
I have not had enough experience with gears to make a recommendation on cam plates, I would think with almost stock cams if you could get you lash right a stock plate would be sufficient.

 

The OEM cam plate is adequate for bolt-in gear drive cams, assuming the cam plate is in serviceable condition and new outer bearings are used.

No disrespect to Hoban Brothers (AKA Darkhorse), however, there are other places that will T/B/W a crank and do other lower end work for less. I do think Darkhorse is the best but just saying that if cost is an issue and for this particular application, there are other and less expensive sources. You are looking at $1200 or thereabout for Darkhorse to address the crank and go through the lower unit to being it back to full service life. For that money, you could have a 4.375" crank installed, almost free cubic inches. I would think long and hard about maximizing the cost/benefit of the lower end work. Do the math and compare what you will spend to build back to stock 88" with the cost to rebuild back to 96".

 

Harleycruiser, totally agree that replacing an early camplate with another early (pre '07) camplate will gain nothing assuming the original camplate is not damaged. I didn't read your post that way. Sorry.

djl, many threads out there about issues with "budget" gear-driven cam installs. I believe that the reason that HD went with the chain-driven cam setup was that it is more forgiving of crank/camchest tolerance variations found in stock parts and the improved valve timing precision of the gear-driven setup was not needed with stock or mild builds. The added expense of the gear drive in such an application is a waste IMO since less money would be spent on a '07up camplate design with the later superior high-volume oil pump and the hydraulic tensioners vs gear-driven cams on a stock early camplate with the inferior early oil pump. Also, and most important, the chain-driven setup is much more forgiving of crank pinion runout and other compromises of a budget build. BTW, as you know, I converted to a gear-driven cam setup on my recent build and am glad I did, but mine was (almost) a cost-no-object build with carefully selected SOTA components throughout using high-lift/steep ramp cams designed to make max power at high RPMs. There is no good reason to support the added expense of using a gear-driven cam/early camplate setup in the OP's situation vs the going with the '07up camplate kit conversion with hydraulic tensioners and improved oil pump or even using the stock camplate with the Cyco-shoe upgrade and a top compatible aftermarket high-volume oil pump. JMHO.

 

Who said anything about a "budget build"? Have you checked the price of a new early OEM cam plate recently? I agree on the first part of your statement but take exception to the second part. While it is true that valve timing is improved with gear driven cams, that improvement does not show up on a dyno; have seen that proven many times.

I also take exception to your claim that the early stock oil pump is inferior. While it may not be as robust as the later pump upgrades, it is more than adequate for a garden variety 95" build that will produce 95HP/105TQ which is well above the goal of the OP. Furthermore, the '07 OEM cam plate is less robust than the early OEM cam plate. I have seen the outer cam journal bores in '07 and later cam plates worn beyond service limits in less than 5000 miles after a performance cam install. While this may be an exception to the rule, that will not happen with an early cam plate with outer cam bearings.

WRT to the oil pump, I do not disagree and as I have posted many times, there is an aftermarket oil pump upgrade from Drag Specialties that will work with the early OEM cam plate. However, my main point has been and will always be when cost is a consideration that modifications can be tailored to a budget and produce satisfactory and reliable results. The build in question is a mild 88" or 95" and there is no good reason not to use the early OEM cam plate, gear driven cams and the early "inferior" oil pump. For the first 8 years of the advent of the twin cam motor, we have been replacing the faulty cam shoe tensioners with gear drive cams and the only option for cam plate and oil pump was the offering from Fueling which was costly and had issues. There a plenty of 88" and 95" motors (I happen to ride one) that make low 100s TQ and near 100HP that were setup with the early OEM cam plate, gear drive "bolt in" cams and the early oil pump that have been ridden hard and put up wet with no issues.

We are all entitled to an opinion; however, when it comes to advising other forum members that are looking for ways to cut cost and still build a reliable motor with a little more guts, there are options that work that are more than opinion and based on hands on experience and historical data. The OP will do whatever the OP will do but he will be able to do it knowing that there are no absolutes and there is a cheaper way to skin the cat.


What are the compromises of a "budget build"? A budget build, by definition is getting the most for the money while building a reliable but better than stock performing motor. What is wrong with that concept? Many of the forum members are not fortunate enough or not interested in a "cost-no-object" build; however, if that was the OPs goal, my advice would be very different.

 

Agree that replacing the early camplate with another early camplate would be a futile move and also agree that the improved valve timing is not critical for mild builds as stated in my previous post. No argument here.

Re: the early oil pump, "not as robust"="inferior". The early-style oil pump does not move the volume of the later pump.

Re: the '07 style camplate: many aftermarket conversion camplates for pre-07 motors (R&R and HD SE for example) provide for the early-style use of outer cam bearings or bushings (not rotating in the parent material) with the advantage of having oil galleries that mate to the superior later-style higher-volume oil pump and use hydraulic cam chain tensioners.

For a mild build, using the $400-$500 cost of the S&S/Andrews gears is better spent in a camplate conversion that utilizes the '07-up oil pump and hydraulic cam chain tensioners along with the outer can bearings IMO. The final paragraph of my prior post recommends consideration of using the early camplate with an aftermarket higher-volume oil pump (as you frequently recommend) in lieu of spending big bucks on a gear-driven cam setup.

Your opinion is worthy of serious consideration as is mine and we are both equally capable of providing sound advice in the areas where we have experience, as is the case here.

Agree. Nothing at all wrong with the majority of owners that build to a budget. Smartest thing to do. Just think that the propaganda around the superiority of using gear-driven cams is a disservice to those same folks intending to go with mild builds. I believe getting the best oiling solution possible is more important in those situations, as well as any other build where trade-offs are reality for that matter.