.107" crank endplay
#1
01-07-2018, 08:32 PM
.107" crank endplay
Short version: My scoot was making a slight knocking noise at slow idle (below 1000 rpm) that sounded loudest by the comp sprocket. I had the primary apart numerous times looking for the source of the noise without seeing anything. I had just installed the SE comp on there when I first heard the noise. It is much quieter now with the Baker comp on it but I can still hear it. I pulled the engine this past week looking for the source of the knock and I have .107" on the crank endplay. It is so bad that you can see the flywheels moving side to side when you grab the crank and move it in and out. Aside from a timken bearing upgrade and proper endplay set up, what else am I looking at? What caused this to happen (I think I have an idea on this when I explain the history in the long version of this post)? The crank has .004" runout on the pinion shaft.
Much longer version:I now have almost 72,000 miles on my scoot. At about 13,000 miles I installed Andrews 48 cams and a screaming eagle compensator.
I rode with this setup for about 32,000 miles with no issues that I could see, hear or feel.
At around 45,000 miles I got bored and wanted to make some more power so I read a lot and poked around on the forums a lot and decided to have the heads ported and put different cams in. I took the scoot apart and sent the heads out to have them done which included having the comp ratio bumped to 9.8:1 and installed S&S 583 cams. When I got the heads back (with the cams, lifters and gaskets) I noticed that they were not the ez-start cams that I had wanted but I was told by person that did the heads that it would not matter.
The engine ran strong (was a little noisier which I attributed to the cams) and all was well for the first 10,000 or so miles that I put on it.
It was during the second 10,000 miles that I started having starting issues, especially if I had just shut down the scoot an hour or so earlier, it would make an awful crunching sound some times and other times would start on the first try. I pulled the primary cover and noticed that the comp sprocket was wasted. This was at about 64,000 miles. I ordered up another screaming eagle comp and installed it, backed the scoot off the lift and rolled it outside to go home. I did not notice anything when I ran it on the lift but when I started it outside I could hear an intermittent knocking sound from the primary area that disappeared as soon as I brought the idle up over 1100 rpm. Except for that noise (and I masked that by raising the curb idle to 1100 using the PV) the bike worked fine and the starter kickback was gone. That lasted about 1000 miles and then the starter drive started to spin out occasionally when I tried to start the bike so now I pulled the starter and changed the drive (and put new cables in while I was there just because). At the same time, I put a set of ez start cams in so that all of these other problems would not show up again.
Still afraid of the knocking noise at slow idle, I tried a Baker comp and initially I thought I was finally done but it was not long before I could hear the noise again although much quieter now than with the SE comp. Being winter now and my Florida trip cancelled I decided to tear the motor down and found the endplay which I believe is the noise which I hear (unless someone has a better explanation) and it was caused by lots of hot starts on a motor with more than stock compression and the endplay (and the wasted comp and starter drive) are the cumulative results of this.
Much longer version:I now have almost 72,000 miles on my scoot. At about 13,000 miles I installed Andrews 48 cams and a screaming eagle compensator.
I rode with this setup for about 32,000 miles with no issues that I could see, hear or feel.
At around 45,000 miles I got bored and wanted to make some more power so I read a lot and poked around on the forums a lot and decided to have the heads ported and put different cams in. I took the scoot apart and sent the heads out to have them done which included having the comp ratio bumped to 9.8:1 and installed S&S 583 cams. When I got the heads back (with the cams, lifters and gaskets) I noticed that they were not the ez-start cams that I had wanted but I was told by person that did the heads that it would not matter.
The engine ran strong (was a little noisier which I attributed to the cams) and all was well for the first 10,000 or so miles that I put on it.
It was during the second 10,000 miles that I started having starting issues, especially if I had just shut down the scoot an hour or so earlier, it would make an awful crunching sound some times and other times would start on the first try. I pulled the primary cover and noticed that the comp sprocket was wasted. This was at about 64,000 miles. I ordered up another screaming eagle comp and installed it, backed the scoot off the lift and rolled it outside to go home. I did not notice anything when I ran it on the lift but when I started it outside I could hear an intermittent knocking sound from the primary area that disappeared as soon as I brought the idle up over 1100 rpm. Except for that noise (and I masked that by raising the curb idle to 1100 using the PV) the bike worked fine and the starter kickback was gone. That lasted about 1000 miles and then the starter drive started to spin out occasionally when I tried to start the bike so now I pulled the starter and changed the drive (and put new cables in while I was there just because). At the same time, I put a set of ez start cams in so that all of these other problems would not show up again.
Still afraid of the knocking noise at slow idle, I tried a Baker comp and initially I thought I was finally done but it was not long before I could hear the noise again although much quieter now than with the SE comp. Being winter now and my Florida trip cancelled I decided to tear the motor down and found the endplay which I believe is the noise which I hear (unless someone has a better explanation) and it was caused by lots of hot starts on a motor with more than stock compression and the endplay (and the wasted comp and starter drive) are the cumulative results of this.
#2
01-09-2018, 06:16 AM
Seasoned HDF Member
If it was fine the first 10k and then started to have problems I would suspect the lifters were bleeding down which would cause hard restart issues. Did you replace the lifters when you did the cam? And did you use adjustable pushrods? On the end play , yea it does sound like a lot. I would call Kirby at vee twin racing, He's in Deland down your neck of the woods and is a forum sponsor...
www.veetwinperformance.com
@ 386-873-4427
kirby
www.veetwinperformance.com
@ 386-873-4427
kirby
#3
01-09-2018, 08:14 AM
#4
01-09-2018, 08:43 AM
Seasoned HDF Member
#5
01-09-2018, 08:51 AM
Sponsor
Happy to help.
Scott
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HILLSIDE MOTORCYCLE & MACHINE, INC.
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HILLSIDE MOTORCYCLE & MACHINE, INC.
HARLEY-DAVIDSON SPEED & SERVICE CENTER
5225 SOUTH MAIN ST., MUNNSVILLE, N.Y. 13409
Sales/Support 315-495-6650
www.hillsidecycle.com
Walk-in Retail Showroom
Complete H-D Machine Shop
Case & cylinder boring
Complete Cylinder Head Shop
High-Performance Engine Kits
Crank Rebuilding
Direct Link & PowerVision Tuning
Goodson HD Tooling Manufacturer
Maxton Mile World Record
4500 sq ft. facility
OVER 35 YEARS OF H-D ENGINE BUILDING.
See us on Facebook.
#6
01-09-2018, 08:59 AM
I was kind of hoping more members would weigh in on this issue, surely someone besides me must have had crank issues on this forum...
I am looking into getting the timken conversion done, actually considering buying the tool and doing it myself but checking prices to see if someone local can do it for me. I work in an indy bike shop so the scoot is there on the lift since we are slow right now and my boss will be making some calls today to see what my options are.
I am looking into getting the timken conversion done, actually considering buying the tool and doing it myself but checking prices to see if someone local can do it for me. I work in an indy bike shop so the scoot is there on the lift since we are slow right now and my boss will be making some calls today to see what my options are.
#7
01-09-2018, 09:21 AM
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#8
01-09-2018, 10:58 AM
[FONT=Comic Sans MS]I was kind of hoping more members would weigh in on this issue, surely someone besides me must have had crank issues on this forum...
I am looking into getting the timken conversion done, actually considering buying the tool and doing it myself but checking prices to see if someone local can do it for me. I work in an indy bike shop so the scoot is there on the lift since we are slow right now and my boss will be making some calls today to see what my options are.
I am looking into getting the timken conversion done, actually considering buying the tool and doing it myself but checking prices to see if someone local can do it for me. I work in an indy bike shop so the scoot is there on the lift since we are slow right now and my boss will be making some calls today to see what my options are.
I am curious how you measured the .107" end play; that's a lot considering most conversions set end play at .004" +/- depending on the shop.
#10
01-09-2018, 12:48 PM