Screamin Eagle Hydro Cam Plate Probelm
#11
03-30-2010, 10:13 AM
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My old two cents here.
The comment about the breaker could be something to look at.
When you put in the new oil pump did you check alinement?
My book says and I would do this anyway, is to install the pump and plate but tighten the 4 bolts around the pump just finger tight, then turn the rear wheel, in gear, and let the oil pump rotors center up in their cavity as the engine goes around a few times. Then tighten bolts per instructions. Double check easy rotation.
If all that is OK couple of things.
The steel cam chain will not streatch, from heat, more that the aluminum plate. Less actually. Tiny amount anyway.
Having said that 88,000 miles on a silent chain is enough. What they are called, silent chains.
Another thing.
If all is OK with the pump and cam installation the noise sounds like the lifters are leaking and bottoming out.
You said the engine has stock cam. Stock pushrods. Lifter adjusted to stock settings?
When the engine is cold the lifters are forced to the bottom, but the engine has shrunk some. Quiet and valves open OK.
As it gets hot the cilenders grow faster and more than the pushrods. So things are opened up some. At some point there is more demenstion change than the lifters can handle. Noise
When you stop hot and before cooldown the lifters leak all the way down or at least 0.100 probably 0.150 actually. In a minute or so I bet.
Stock cam is what?? with lift 0.475 or so, you loose to a cam lift to 0.325 or so total. Barely off the seat. Hard starting and noise.
So think about that. Just a couple things is all.
If all is OK with the chaines and oil pump you might look into adjustable pushrods or pushrods 0.0100" longer that you have. HD sell them.
The comment about the breaker could be something to look at.
When you put in the new oil pump did you check alinement?
My book says and I would do this anyway, is to install the pump and plate but tighten the 4 bolts around the pump just finger tight, then turn the rear wheel, in gear, and let the oil pump rotors center up in their cavity as the engine goes around a few times. Then tighten bolts per instructions. Double check easy rotation.
If all that is OK couple of things.
The steel cam chain will not streatch, from heat, more that the aluminum plate. Less actually. Tiny amount anyway.
Having said that 88,000 miles on a silent chain is enough. What they are called, silent chains.
Another thing.
If all is OK with the pump and cam installation the noise sounds like the lifters are leaking and bottoming out.
You said the engine has stock cam. Stock pushrods. Lifter adjusted to stock settings?
When the engine is cold the lifters are forced to the bottom, but the engine has shrunk some. Quiet and valves open OK.
As it gets hot the cilenders grow faster and more than the pushrods. So things are opened up some. At some point there is more demenstion change than the lifters can handle. Noise
When you stop hot and before cooldown the lifters leak all the way down or at least 0.100 probably 0.150 actually. In a minute or so I bet.
Stock cam is what?? with lift 0.475 or so, you loose to a cam lift to 0.325 or so total. Barely off the seat. Hard starting and noise.
So think about that. Just a couple things is all.
If all is OK with the chaines and oil pump you might look into adjustable pushrods or pushrods 0.0100" longer that you have. HD sell them.
As far as the Pump alignment goes, I used the Alignment Pins. These are special tapered screws that pilot and center into the #3 and #4 the screw holes in the Camplate and thread into the Pump. Once these pins are installed, you then get the #1 and #2 screws installed and torqued and then you removing the pins and torque up the remaining two bolts. I was under the impression that this was the newer way the Motor Factory recommends installing and aligning the pump. I will admit the SE Hydro Cam Plate Instructions talk about the rear wheel turning method you described.
As for adjustable pushrods, after tearing the top end apart twice now I am seriously thinking about them. At this point, I just didn’t want to add another variable to the equation. I may have already done too many things at one time leaving me with too many possibilities for troubleshooting the problem.
Thinking about the expansion, if we assume the Coefficient of Expansion of Steel is 0.0000073 in/in-deg F and Aluminum is 0.0000123 in/in-deg F and we assume the pushrods are 10 inches long. Also, if we assume the cylinder is the same 10” length because all the other parts that make up the difference in length between the cylinder and pushrods should expand also to make the length the difference, The for every 200 degrees of temperature rise the pushrods should expand 10” X 0.0000073 X 200 = 0.0146”. Likewise the cylinders should expand 10” X 0.0000123 X 200 = 0.0246”. This is a 0.0.010” difference per 200 degrees. I don’t know the actual temperature rise but it can’t be more than 400 degrees which is 0.020”. Ok, so lets say that the pushrods are at 200 deg temp rise because they are being bathed in oil and the cylinders are at 400 degrees. This equates to a 0.0346” length difference. I am not saying that this won’t cause my lifter to clatter but the numbers aren’t as large as thought. Maybe I missed something.
I will likely install the adjustables because I am tired of tearing the top end apart.
#12
03-30-2010, 02:10 PM
Tracman63, what you describe in one of your post about having oil pressure at start up and then starting to get noisy a few miles down the road, pulling in the clutch and she dies etc.....sounds exactly what I went through a few months ago.
Here's what I found. The main breaker is a constant problem that does not go away even after warranty recall installed a 50 amp - resolution to date. I keep a couple spare mains on board at all times and do not run the spots! :-) For me the main was not the cause of my issues it was just another issue that happened at the same time.
When you installed the new cam plate even with the alignment screws you describe, you may not be properly aligned and thus some sumping going on. With the bike in 5th gear you can easily spin the rear wheel with your left foot at a very quick pace as you slowly torque those four bolts and bring her into the sweet spot! Better be setting on a shop stool though. Just be sure and close the garage door while doing this because you will look a bit foolish and draw some real strange looks! :-)
Even more important in my case was that little additional screw plug kit THAT DOES NOT COME WITH THE NEW HYDRAULIC CAM PLATE KIT. This mystery kit contains one self tapping screw and one phenolic looking washer. Now the instructions that came with your cam plate kit mention this additional kit only in passing if you happen to read every little line item as you install your new plate. These instructions tell you that you need to follow the instructions with the additional ( one screw ) kit very close. Now when you get this $5.45 kit you must read the instructions s l o w l y or you just might think it tells you that you really don't need the kit when in fact it is vital! Once you determine where to install this one little screw via the terrible pictures supplied ( A block or B block ) (( if your real lucky like I was you will have a A block with a B block cam plate factory installed to confuse the dookie out of you! Probably marked with a yellow paint pen)) that look nothing like your old cam plate and or your new cam plate. ( hint, it goes in the little un-threaded hole on the backside/interior and rear-end of the new plate just above that little o-ring you installed in the oil passage) Now if your fortunate at this point as I was, she will fire up with good pressure and maintain that pressure after warm up and some miles down the road.
Best thing you can do is listen to the folk on this site and follow their lead. They are a wealth of knowledge far superior to anything you will find in the shop manuals. My 2 cents anyway! Then again you may have a whole different problem! :-)
Here's what I found. The main breaker is a constant problem that does not go away even after warranty recall installed a 50 amp - resolution to date. I keep a couple spare mains on board at all times and do not run the spots! :-) For me the main was not the cause of my issues it was just another issue that happened at the same time.
When you installed the new cam plate even with the alignment screws you describe, you may not be properly aligned and thus some sumping going on. With the bike in 5th gear you can easily spin the rear wheel with your left foot at a very quick pace as you slowly torque those four bolts and bring her into the sweet spot! Better be setting on a shop stool though. Just be sure and close the garage door while doing this because you will look a bit foolish and draw some real strange looks! :-)
Even more important in my case was that little additional screw plug kit THAT DOES NOT COME WITH THE NEW HYDRAULIC CAM PLATE KIT. This mystery kit contains one self tapping screw and one phenolic looking washer. Now the instructions that came with your cam plate kit mention this additional kit only in passing if you happen to read every little line item as you install your new plate. These instructions tell you that you need to follow the instructions with the additional ( one screw ) kit very close. Now when you get this $5.45 kit you must read the instructions s l o w l y or you just might think it tells you that you really don't need the kit when in fact it is vital! Once you determine where to install this one little screw via the terrible pictures supplied ( A block or B block ) (( if your real lucky like I was you will have a A block with a B block cam plate factory installed to confuse the dookie out of you! Probably marked with a yellow paint pen)) that look nothing like your old cam plate and or your new cam plate. ( hint, it goes in the little un-threaded hole on the backside/interior and rear-end of the new plate just above that little o-ring you installed in the oil passage) Now if your fortunate at this point as I was, she will fire up with good pressure and maintain that pressure after warm up and some miles down the road.
Best thing you can do is listen to the folk on this site and follow their lead. They are a wealth of knowledge far superior to anything you will find in the shop manuals. My 2 cents anyway! Then again you may have a whole different problem! :-)
#13
03-30-2010, 02:15 PM
#14
03-30-2010, 03:00 PM
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Tracman63, what you describe in one of your post about having oil pressure at start up and then starting to get noisy a few miles down the road, pulling in the clutch and she dies etc.....sounds exactly what I went through a few months ago.
Here's what I found. The main breaker is a constant problem that does not go away even after warranty recall installed a 50 amp - resolution to date. I keep a couple spare mains on board at all times and do not run the spots! :-) For me the main was not the cause of my issues it was just another issue that happened at the same time.
When you installed the new cam plate even with the alignment screws you describe, you may not be properly aligned and thus some sumping going on. With the bike in 5th gear you can easily spin the rear wheel with your left foot at a very quick pace as you slowly torque those four bolts and bring her into the sweet spot! Better be setting on a shop stool though. Just be sure and close the garage door while doing this because you will look a bit foolish and draw some real strange looks! :-)
Even more important in my case was that little additional screw plug kit THAT DOES NOT COME WITH THE NEW HYDRAULIC CAM PLATE KIT. This mystery kit contains one self tapping screw and one phenolic looking washer. Now the instructions that came with your cam plate kit mention this additional kit only in passing if you happen to read every little line item as you install your new plate. These instructions tell you that you need to follow the instructions with the additional ( one screw ) kit very close. Now when you get this $5.45 kit you must read the instructions s l o w l y or you just might think it tells you that you really don't need the kit when in fact it is vital! Once you determine where to install this one little screw via the terrible pictures supplied ( A block or B block ) (( if your real lucky like I was you will have a A block with a B block cam plate factory installed to confuse the dookie out of you! Probably marked with a yellow paint pen)) that look nothing like your old cam plate and or your new cam plate. ( hint, it goes in the little un-threaded hole on the backside/interior and rear-end of the new plate just above that little o-ring you installed in the oil passage) Now if your fortunate at this point as I was, she will fire up with good pressure and maintain that pressure after warm up and some miles down the road.
Best thing you can do is listen to the folk on this site and follow their lead. They are a wealth of knowledge far superior to anything you will find in the shop manuals. My 2 cents anyway! Then again you may have a whole different problem! :-)
Here's what I found. The main breaker is a constant problem that does not go away even after warranty recall installed a 50 amp - resolution to date. I keep a couple spare mains on board at all times and do not run the spots! :-) For me the main was not the cause of my issues it was just another issue that happened at the same time.
When you installed the new cam plate even with the alignment screws you describe, you may not be properly aligned and thus some sumping going on. With the bike in 5th gear you can easily spin the rear wheel with your left foot at a very quick pace as you slowly torque those four bolts and bring her into the sweet spot! Better be setting on a shop stool though. Just be sure and close the garage door while doing this because you will look a bit foolish and draw some real strange looks! :-)
Even more important in my case was that little additional screw plug kit THAT DOES NOT COME WITH THE NEW HYDRAULIC CAM PLATE KIT. This mystery kit contains one self tapping screw and one phenolic looking washer. Now the instructions that came with your cam plate kit mention this additional kit only in passing if you happen to read every little line item as you install your new plate. These instructions tell you that you need to follow the instructions with the additional ( one screw ) kit very close. Now when you get this $5.45 kit you must read the instructions s l o w l y or you just might think it tells you that you really don't need the kit when in fact it is vital! Once you determine where to install this one little screw via the terrible pictures supplied ( A block or B block ) (( if your real lucky like I was you will have a A block with a B block cam plate factory installed to confuse the dookie out of you! Probably marked with a yellow paint pen)) that look nothing like your old cam plate and or your new cam plate. ( hint, it goes in the little un-threaded hole on the backside/interior and rear-end of the new plate just above that little o-ring you installed in the oil passage) Now if your fortunate at this point as I was, she will fire up with good pressure and maintain that pressure after warm up and some miles down the road.
Best thing you can do is listen to the folk on this site and follow their lead. They are a wealth of knowledge far superior to anything you will find in the shop manuals. My 2 cents anyway! Then again you may have a whole different problem! :-)
Anezangl: Can I ask what is your bike?
#15
03-30-2010, 03:13 PM
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I hate Do-overs also that's why I am so frustrated with this thing. Had I know it was going to be this frustrating I would have just used R&R the old camplate and save $400 by just installing a new set of Adjustable Push Rods so it would have been easier after I rolled up next 25K.
I agree on the compression check and leak-down test, I am sure it is long overdue. But I don't think it is my problem since these issue were not there before the upgrade. I just need to get a 12mm adapter for my compression gauge, but I won't until I stop spending money on this problem.
#17
03-31-2010, 09:02 AM
I know this is tiring. Just the thing you have to do. Better to work on this thing at home than out on the road somewhere. Just gotta do it. It will be OK.
Take it nice and slow, trace the oil flows and install very carefully. Will be OK.
The main breaker is on the Plus (+) side of the battery.
As Anezang said it is a known problem.
There is a artical in American Iron, this month I believe, about this system.
Has to do with being too small to start with and then installing into a hot area.
You would thing this wouldn't be rocket science but look at Toyota and NASA.
Take it nice and slow, trace the oil flows and install very carefully. Will be OK.
The main breaker is on the Plus (+) side of the battery.
As Anezang said it is a known problem.
There is a artical in American Iron, this month I believe, about this system.
Has to do with being too small to start with and then installing into a hot area.
You would thing this wouldn't be rocket science but look at Toyota and NASA.
Last edited by Old Gunny; 03-31-2010 at 09:08 AM.
#18
03-31-2010, 01:20 PM
Tracman63, the scooter I am referencing is an 99 Ultra Classic. 95" conversion, high flow breather, cams, hyd. cam plate, adjustable push rods, baisley spring, power commander, D&D slip-on's etc.......oh yeah, and that little one screw kit! :-) You see with out that little bugger she pumps a whole lot of oil right into the case, and that ain't good. She will show good pressure but none git'n to the top end etc........
Old Gunny, I got to get that article. I tried to convince the powers that be at a couple of the dealerships that "Heat" and the location of the main played a big part in the problem but they insist that it doesn't. Seems to me that a "thermal" main would be affected by temperature as much as load. I am going to make a nice looking aluminum plate kinda like a heat shield and mount it on the engine side of the fire wall with an air gap between it and the wall to see if it would sink some of the rear cylinder heat away from the main. What do you think?
Tracman63, like Old Gunny said, "Take it nice and slow, trace the oil flows and install very carefully. Will be OK." And when your all done and sliding down the highway with the wind in your face you'll have a nice feeling knowing that you did it and looking back it will seem like no big deal. Every time I get a compliment about the sound of my scooter or the way she pulls away from a light it feels good! Good luck!
Old Gunny, I got to get that article. I tried to convince the powers that be at a couple of the dealerships that "Heat" and the location of the main played a big part in the problem but they insist that it doesn't. Seems to me that a "thermal" main would be affected by temperature as much as load. I am going to make a nice looking aluminum plate kinda like a heat shield and mount it on the engine side of the fire wall with an air gap between it and the wall to see if it would sink some of the rear cylinder heat away from the main. What do you think?
Tracman63, like Old Gunny said, "Take it nice and slow, trace the oil flows and install very carefully. Will be OK." And when your all done and sliding down the highway with the wind in your face you'll have a nice feeling knowing that you did it and looking back it will seem like no big deal. Every time I get a compliment about the sound of my scooter or the way she pulls away from a light it feels good! Good luck!
#20
04-05-2010, 11:35 AM
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Those of you who suggested the Main Break may be the reason for the bike quitting when it gets warm where correct. Replaced the Circuit Breaker with a 50 Amp model and the problem is gone. Thanks for the help!
As for the valve train clatter issue, it still exits. Quite when cold and very noisy, particularly at Idle, when warm. Don’t notice it so much when at speed. Not sure if it is because it is drowned out by all the wind and exhaust noise, but it don’t seem so noticeable at speed. Oil pressure runs about 48 PSI at speed and about 6-8 PSI at idle, if you can believe the HD gauge.
Checked for the Sumping: Went for a ride and heated it up. Pulled in the garage and shut it down. Opened the crankcase drain and 1-3/4 ounces came out.
Maybe Old Gunny is on the right track. Maybe I need slightly longer pushrods due to wear and disassembly/reassembly/ new component tolerances.
Did the compression Check: Engine Cold:
Dry Front: 115 PSI
Dry Rear: 118 PSI
Wet Front: 127 PSI
Wet Rear: 127 PSI
Haven’t done the Leakdown Test yet. I need to put together the apparatus for this test.
As for the valve train clatter issue, it still exits. Quite when cold and very noisy, particularly at Idle, when warm. Don’t notice it so much when at speed. Not sure if it is because it is drowned out by all the wind and exhaust noise, but it don’t seem so noticeable at speed. Oil pressure runs about 48 PSI at speed and about 6-8 PSI at idle, if you can believe the HD gauge.
Checked for the Sumping: Went for a ride and heated it up. Pulled in the garage and shut it down. Opened the crankcase drain and 1-3/4 ounces came out.
Maybe Old Gunny is on the right track. Maybe I need slightly longer pushrods due to wear and disassembly/reassembly/ new component tolerances.
Did the compression Check: Engine Cold:
Dry Front: 115 PSI
Dry Rear: 118 PSI
Wet Front: 127 PSI
Wet Rear: 127 PSI
Haven’t done the Leakdown Test yet. I need to put together the apparatus for this test.
