Exhaust System Topics New and old exhaust system discussions. Fitment issues to sound bites and suggestions. Post them here.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by: Jekill and Hyde

Crankcase breather valve - straight scoop?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
  #1  
Old 05-26-2010, 10:35 AM
SURFOR Chop's Avatar
SURFOR Chop
SURFOR Chop is offline
Elite HDF Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,919
Likes: 0
Received 20 Likes on 18 Posts
Default Crankcase breather valve - straight scoop?

* * * below is a copy of my post in Dyna section ... thought I'd post over here for possible additional input * * *

I ordered my cam gasket kit ... also ordered a S&S crankcase breather valve that goes outboard (I believe) of the oil pump on the end of the crankshaft ... supposed to significantly reduce the crankcase pressure that forces oil into the head breathers ...

Got the following feedback from forum member Airborne350G:


Originally Posted by Airborne350G
Wasn't sure about the crankcase breather so I had to search on it. I found this on the net and it is pretty interesting:

"First off the breather only lets the engine breath one direction, this was fine from Flat Head days to EVO days but the Twin Cam motor is an internal breathing motor. This means the TC breaths from the crank case to the cam chest and then up to the rocker boxes when the piston is on the down stroke, (very little air escapes the engine through the two small holes in the head breather bolts) as the piston goes up the bore the air is pulled out of the top end into the cam chest and through the pinion bearing into the crank case again. During the up stroke of the piston and air traveling into the crank case there is a pull on the oil in the top end that assist in the return of that said oil into the cam chest for removal. If you install the S&S breather it only allows the air to pass through the bearing from the crank case to the cam chest one way....now as the piston goes up the bore the breather stops the air from cycling back through assisting in oil drain from the top and causing a vacuum in the crank case which you DON'T need with this Twin Cam breathing design. Now the oil has to return by gravity alone which slows the return process so oil can be actually filling the rocker boxes. All the oil is directed into the cam chest now in the TC not the Crank case. EVO's and earlier Harley's the oil from the top end was directed into the crank case and their breathers where designed to make that vacuum in the crank case to assist in oil return from the top end. (there are other reasons for crank case vacuum too but thats another topic)
Bottom line in my opinion the S&S breather is just another way to get you to shoot the lock off your wallet....it's not needed and it's a waist of time and money. It doesn't help in scavenging oil out of the cam chest back to the oil tank and that is the ONLY way to prevent oil carry over....get the oil back to the tank."
Guess I should've spent the money on the special cam install tools instead ...

* * *

For a while, I was having a little issue with oil blow by ... getting oil coming out the A/C and drips on the top of the cam chest ... not too much, but noticeably more than some other bikes ....

Must have been hornswagled by the fancy graph on the S&S website comparing crankcase pressure with and without ... I'll admit I'm a bit skeptical as to how much oil is actually going to accumulate in the rocker boxes according to the warning above ....

Guess I'll find out ...

Anyone have one of these already installed who can opine about whether it helps or hinders performance ...?

Thanks for the input ....

R/
'Chop
 
  #2  
Old 05-26-2010, 11:59 AM
Kingofcubes's Avatar
Kingofcubes
Kingofcubes is offline
Road Master
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Mitchellville, Ia.
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

Airborn is correct, we take them out whenever we find them in an engine.
 
  #3  
Old 05-26-2010, 04:45 PM
SURFOR Chop's Avatar
SURFOR Chop
SURFOR Chop is offline
Elite HDF Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,919
Likes: 0
Received 20 Likes on 18 Posts
Default

If anyone's interested, here are the replies to the post above:

"First of all, pulling a vacuum in the crankcase is generally accepted as a good thing, ask any racer. Crankcase vacuum actually helps to eliminate piston ring flutter. This causes less blowby and more power.

What you were explained would be true if the engine ran very slowly.
However, because the air is changing direction so rapidly (100 times a second at 3000 RPM) the oil has no hope of following what the air pulses are doing. The reed valve is simply eliminating the pulses so that gravity can do its job.

We set the dyno engine up with clear return lines and manometers to monitor what was happening in the engine. We found that some RPM's cause a harmonic frequency in the oil return lines and the oil actually defies gravity and stops flowing down the returns and starts to collect in the rocker boxes. Eventually, the boxes fill up and cause oil carryover out the breathers."

My understanding is that (i) "running very slowly" refers to a speed below normal idle; and (ii) under normal riding conditions the RPMs where oil starts to collect are transient, so therefore it is not a problem.

Just thought I'd pass this info along ....

R/
'Chop
 
  #4  
Old 05-27-2010, 05:23 AM
Hillsidecycle.com's Avatar
Hillsidecycle.com
Hillsidecycle.com is offline
Sponsor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,085
Received 816 Likes on 581 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by SURFOR Chop
* * * below is a copy of my post in Dyna section ... thought I'd post over here for possible additional input * * *

I ordered my cam gasket kit ... also ordered a S&S crankcase breather valve that goes outboard (I believe) of the oil pump on the end of the crankshaft ... supposed to significantly reduce the crankcase pressure that forces oil into the head breathers ...

Got the following feedback from forum member Airborne350G:




Guess I should've spent the money on the special cam install tools instead ...

* * *

For a while, I was having a little issue with oil blow by ... getting oil coming out the A/C and drips on the top of the cam chest ... not too much, but noticeably more than some other bikes ....

Must have been hornswagled by the fancy graph on the S&S website comparing crankcase pressure with and without ... I'll admit I'm a bit skeptical as to how much oil is actually going to accumulate in the rocker boxes according to the warning above ....

Guess I'll find out ...

Anyone have one of these already installed who can opine about whether it helps or hinders performance ...?

Thanks for the input ....

R/
'Chop

It nether helps, nor hinders.
If you have oil in your air cleaner on occasion, drill the oil drain in your rocker arm support plates, with a .125" drill, and try running the oil bag about 1/2 qt low.
That should dry things up, and is basically free, expect for a little time.
Scott
 
__________________
HILLSIDE MOTORCYCLE & MACHINE, INC.
HARLEY-DAVIDSON SPEED & SERVICE CENTER
5225 SOUTH MAIN ST., MUNNSVILLE, N.Y. 13409
Sales/Support 315-495-6650
www.hillsidecycle.com
Walk-in Retail Showroom
Complete H-D Machine Shop
Case & cylinder boring
Complete Cylinder Head Shop
High-Performance Engine Kits
Crank Rebuilding
Direct Link & PowerVision Tuning
Goodson HD Tooling Manufacturer
Maxton Mile World Record
4500 sq ft. facility

OVER 35 YEARS OF H-D ENGINE BUILDING.
See us on Facebook.
  #5  
Old 05-17-2012, 10:02 AM
cmashark's Avatar
cmashark
cmashark is offline
Road Warrior

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Atoka, TN
Posts: 1,496
Received 209 Likes on 114 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Hillsidecycle.com
It nether helps, nor hinders.
If you have oil in your air cleaner on occasion, drill the oil drain in your rocker arm support plates, with a .125" drill, and try running the oil bag about 1/2 qt low.
That should dry things up, and is basically free, expect for a little time.
Scott
Anybody have a picture so I would know exactly where to drill?

Chris
 
  #6  
Old 05-17-2012, 03:43 PM
jcb1975@yahoo.com's Avatar
jcb1975@yahoo.com
jcb1975@yahoo.com is offline
Tourer
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

No picture, but the hole is in the rocker arm plate, underneath the umbrella valves, that little sponge with the rubber diaphram. It is inside of a little case held to the rocker plate with two bolts. I recently did cams, tensioners and bearings and while I was in there I went ahead with the H/D breather upgrade and drilled the holes to .125 . Made no difference at all. Still get the smell when decel in gear, still get oil out of the A/C. Have only been adding 3 quarts of oil at changes, making the oil barely on the safe zone of dipstick when warm. I think a H/D has to leak a little oil from somewhere or they just aren't happy.
 
  #7  
Old 05-27-2013, 03:53 PM
jagonza1's Avatar
jagonza1
jagonza1 is offline
Intermediate
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

I can see what you saying but Speeds performance is selling these under their name as well and They are pretty much one of the best company's for tuning and dyno
 
  #8  
Old 05-28-2013, 06:02 AM
Hillsidecycle.com's Avatar
Hillsidecycle.com
Hillsidecycle.com is offline
Sponsor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,085
Received 816 Likes on 581 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by jcb1975@yahoo.com
No picture, but the hole is in the rocker arm plate, underneath the umbrella valves, that little sponge with the rubber diaphram. It is inside of a little case held to the rocker plate with two bolts. I recently did cams, tensioners and bearings and while I was in there I went ahead with the H/D breather upgrade and drilled the holes to .125 . Made no difference at all. Still get the smell when decel in gear, still get oil out of the A/C. Have only been adding 3 quarts of oil at changes, making the oil barely on the safe zone of dipstick when warm. I think a H/D has to leak a little oil from somewhere or they just aren't happy.
The breather holes on the cylinder head are the only place that the engine expells air from.
Bound to be a tick of oil mist, mixed in with the air, which is similar to automotive.
How much oil is coming into the air filter?
Saturated, and dripping onto the engine cases?
Scott
 
  #9  
Old 05-28-2013, 10:40 AM
ajayrk's Avatar
ajayrk
ajayrk is offline
Road Master
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,009
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

Drill here.
 
Attached Thumbnails Crankcase breather valve - straight scoop?-drill-here.jpg  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
strych9
Engine Mechanical Topics
12
08-01-2020 03:10 PM
TerryFXST
EVO
119
07-26-2019 09:37 PM
SURFOR Chop
Dyna Glide Models
7
05-26-2010 08:15 PM
cycleeric
Oil Archive (no new posts)
5
05-22-2008 06:22 PM
99!fxdwg
Exhaust System Topics
4
11-26-2005 11:50 PM



Quick Reply: Crankcase breather valve - straight scoop?



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:09 AM.